23:47:20 RRSAgent has joined #epub-locators 23:47:20 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/14-epub-locators-irc 23:47:22 RRSAgent, make logs Public 23:47:23 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid 23:47:39 meeting: Virtual Locators TF Meeting April 14 2021 23:47:44 date: 2021-04-14 23:47:48 chair: wendyreid 23:48:00 regrets: tzviya, mgarrish 23:48:04 present+ 23:48:31 agenga + Locators Use Cases 23:48:37 agenda + Locators Use Cases 23:49:55 regrets + benschroeter 00:02:34 duga has joined #epub-locators 00:02:39 dlazin has joined #epub-locators 00:02:40 present+ 00:02:49 present+ 00:03:12 Mary has joined #epub-locators 00:03:18 pilarw2000__ has joined #epub-locators 00:03:28 present+ 00:05:39 scribe+ 00:05:49 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y5JKcwlq1rvGYJ1HoLg0GF-NRiBsBNNZopGuQ0mgHUw/edit?ts=607779c8 00:06:26 wendyreid: overview - looking for a solution within epub for locators 00:06:42 ... must work for content creators and RSes 00:06:54 ... may need to change the spec, or may just create a note 00:07:14 ... This is a hard problem, people have looked at it in the past 00:07:44 ... Need to understand the problem space (specific use cases for locators) 00:07:54 ... and what is the range of issues 00:08:07 ... scholarly, trade, etc 00:08:38 ... Asked for use cases, we got a lot back (in a Google doc) 00:09:12 pilarw2000__: Don't seem to be unique (lots of duplicates/overlaps) 00:09:32 dlazin: Useful to cluster as unique problems 00:09:49 ... probably no single answer that will hit everything 00:10:19 ... grouping problems that might have the same or similar solution may help narrow the scope 00:10:34 wendyreid: Ok, let's group them 00:11:17 ... [listing each item] 00:11:48 dlazin: Page numbers important for the first item 00:12:00 ... but that may change over time when we replace page numbers 00:12:11 ... but today we need page numbers 00:12:34 wendyreid: Case 2 - book clubs 00:12:57 pilarw2000__: Good use case, very common if everyone is using ebooks 00:13:15 wendyreid: New group since this may not be page numbers 00:13:27 q? 00:14:49 Ronnie has joined #epub-locators 00:15:53 wendyreid: Use 3 - deep linking from external source 00:15:56 marisa has joined #epub-locators 00:16:00 ... Falls under specific location 00:16:14 present+ 00:16:58 dlazin: Needs to be open to that location as well as display it 00:17:06 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y5JKcwlq1rvGYJ1HoLg0GF-NRiBsBNNZopGuQ0mgHUw/edit?ts=607779c8# 00:17:12 ... Can you deep link now? 00:17:19 duga: Yes, epubcfi, not used 00:17:48 wendyreid: Case 4 - link to exact location, not artificial top of page 00:18:31 ... brings up what to do about footnotes 00:19:25 pilarw2000__: How do indexes work? 00:19:42 wendyreid: Reading index note from the doc being reviewed 00:20:22 Mary: Do we want to talk about embedded indexing in depth now? 00:20:38 dlazin: Maybe group first then come back to indexes 00:21:02 Ronnie: Is this a point locator (unlike the other uses)? 00:21:22 wendyreid: Putting in specific locations for now 00:21:40 ... Case 5 - refer to a range of pages 00:21:57 ... [reading note from the doc] 00:22:16 Mary: People still like page numbers because they are used to them 00:22:36 ... but once they look at the page number, they don't care, or use the range 00:23:14 Ronnie: A range help tell you how much information you will find (ie it tells you size) 00:24:11 duga: Indicating size is something we haven't considered before 00:24:55 dlazin: There is an existing model, and we need to keep the information even if we change the model 00:25:32 pilarw2000__: New standard drops page numbers, uses identifiers 00:25:56 ... people seem to understand sections are large, subsections are small 00:27:20 Mary: Need to understand what readers want 00:27:29 Ronnie: And there are many different kinds of readers 00:28:12 dlazin: Users are used to ctrl-F (technical readers) so lots of nav not needed for technical web content 00:28:19 ... books are different 00:28:30 wendyreid: Is this specific locations? 00:28:45 many: yes 00:29:18 wendyreid: Case 6 - RS wants to use real pages or screen pages 00:29:24 ... seems to fall under page numbers 00:29:39 dlazin: Is this the major implementation of page list 00:30:07 wendyreid: Maybe 00:30:31 marisa: Thorium seems to do it 00:30:38 ... but it has been a few years 00:31:32 Ronnie: This is also the case where a teacher tells students to go to a specific page 00:31:59 wendyreid: Case 7 - Reading the same content across different volumes 00:32:06 ... Seems like specific locations 00:32:22 dlazin: True, but it is actually throwing things away. 00:33:11 ... That is it is doesn't matter what the book is, it is relative to the start of content in the particular volume (anthology vs single book, etc) 00:33:44 wendyreid: Case 8 - Lawyer wants to reference some precise 00:33:49 ... specific locations 00:34:06 ... case 9 - auto generate locators 00:34:47 ... Depending on where it is done (at creation vs reading time) will make it less general 00:35:09 dlazin: If we put it in the spec how to generate it, then it can be consistent 00:35:17 .. but authors would lose control 00:35:50 s/../.../ 00:36:10 wendyreid: Page list is a problem for digital first/only 00:36:29 ... Since there is no print version, there may not be a pagelist 00:37:14 ... Is this specific location? 00:37:29 ... Making a new category for this one 00:37:55 ... Case 10 - cross language support 00:38:34 ... translations may move the location 00:38:48 ... it's specific location 00:38:53 dlazin: It is also ranges 00:39:10 Mary: It is also less specific 00:39:57 Ronnie: May not be the same location as the sentence in the translated version 00:40:32 dlazin: Seemed like arbitrary ranges, but paragraphs kind of solve this 00:40:42 ... There are two versions to the problem 00:40:47 wendyreid: Putting it in specific 00:41:08 ... Case 11 - annotations 00:41:51 dlazin: Seems like specific locations 00:42:58 Ronnie: Once did an index where there could only be a single locator for every entry 00:43:31 ... if there are multiple entries need a new sub entry 00:43:42 ... nice because it was one to one (works well with links) 00:45:23 wendyreid: Continuously updated content, but locator that always takes you to the same place 00:45:33 ... as another use case 00:46:12 dlazin: pilarw2000__ mentioned poems, we should call that out explicitly 00:46:42 pilarw2000__: Similar to translations, using line numbers helps 00:48:14 wendyreid: We have them all grouped 00:48:22 ... might be all we can do today 00:48:57 ... Looks like we have at least one large group, tackling that will hit most of the issues 00:49:09 ... May want to concentrate on that (specific locations) 00:49:22 ... might be a bad term 00:49:36 Mary: Nope, I like it. But I guess we could have another name 00:50:13 wendyreid: Where to do from here? 00:50:24 pilarw2000__: Also should look at the last one 00:50:58 ... since software drives how we do things, it would be good to guide the software 00:51:07 wendyreid: No one handcodes their epubs 00:51:48 ... lean toward authoring side for doing this, to avoid fragmentation of implementations 00:52:21 pilarw2000__: When indexes are embedded you get an idea about the document and discussion 00:52:45 ... that gets carried through to the digital side, even if they no longer makes sense (eg page numbers) 00:53:26 Mary: Agreed. People like to see things like page numbers in the index, but once they are in the document they don't care 00:53:37 pilarw2000__: So I want this use case to stay 00:54:00 ... this use case reflects how the software has changed how we think about this issue 00:54:12 wendyreid: Need an implementable solution 00:54:29 Ronnie: After we have a solution, I never want to see an epub without a linked index 00:54:40 ... whatever we can do to make that a default 00:55:09 wendyreid: Not linked indexes are painful 00:55:41 Ronnie: Still need to convince publishers to add links 00:56:08 Mary: Is there an RS that has an index button (similar to ToC, etc) 00:57:32 wendyreid: Index has never been elevated to same level as ToC in the epub metadata 00:58:09 dlazin: Homework - a lot of what we have in specific locations can be solved with CFI 00:58:39 ... Maybe we should go read CFI and figure out what would need to change to make it palatable 00:58:55 ... make sense or is it prejudging the solution 01:01:50 marisa: Real problem of use cases is "how do we stay webby" (ie solve this in the context of browsers) 01:02:26 wendyreid: HW - review CFI, think about where the gaps are, how will this work in a browser 01:02:52 ... adjourned, meeting again next week at some other random time 01:04:01 rrsagent, make logs public 01:04:05 rrsagent, generate minutes 01:04:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/14-epub-locators-minutes.html wendyreid