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12:59:42 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
13:00:00 <wendyreid> meeting: Fixed Layout Accessibility TF Meeting April 13, 2021
13:00:06 <wendyreid> date: 2021-04-13
13:00:10 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
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13:00:35 <MattChan> present+
13:00:38 <dkaplan3> present+
13:00:41 <gpellegrino> present+
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13:00:49 <wendyreid> present+ laurab
13:00:55 <wendyreid> present+ Ken_Jones
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13:02:07 <CharlesL> present+
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13:02:32 <George> Link to zoom is where?
13:03:56 <gpellegrino> scribe+
13:04:05 <MattChan> scribe+
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13:05:02 <MattChan> wendyreid: welcome everyone to FXL TF
13:05:17 <MattChan> ... last week we decided there were 3 main areas that we wanted to work on
13:05:39 <MattChan> ... updating Daisy KB to reflect more current FXL production and provide better examples of what is done in the real world
13:05:50 <MattChan> ... write best practices around building accessible FXL
13:06:14 <MattChan> ... and experimentation around modern CSS (e.g. grid and flexbox) in epub that leads to better a11y
13:06:16 <laurab> present+ (not on IRC) Rachel Osolen (NNELS)
13:06:33 <MattChan> ... we need volunteers and a plan for tackling those
13:06:48 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:06:51 <gpellegrino> q+
13:06:52 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:06:59 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: i'm happy to be involved in the first two
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13:07:27 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:07:54 <MattChan> gpellegrino: i would like to make some experiments with FXL, would be happy to help with modern CSS in FXL
13:08:08 <MattChan> ... including modern HTML and ARIA etc.
13:08:10 <George> Perhaps Zoom information should be in calendar invitations.
13:08:16 <wendyreid>  /me it's the same as the weekly meeting duga
13:10:17 <George> present+
13:10:21 <MattChan> wendyreid: the business group is also collecting some use-cases around mixed use of fixed and reflow content in epub
13:10:24 <duga> present+
13:10:38 <MattChan> ... i've asked for updates on this so as not to overlap work too much
13:11:33 <laurab> I am happy to help as well.
13:11:34 <MattChan> will: one of my team is joining today, veejay, and we're happy to join
13:11:48 <MattChan> s/veejay/vijay
13:11:56 <George> q+
13:12:04 <wendyreid> ack George
13:12:13 <CharlesL> q+
13:12:17 <MattChan> George: so i can envision techniques to make these accessible, except for low vision
13:12:31 <MattChan> ... i don't see how it can be done unless there are alternative version available
13:13:02 <MattChan> ... if enlarging means having to pan left and right, that's not accessible
13:13:10 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:13:16 <duga> q+
13:13:30 <MattChan> CharlesL: on that note, i'm happy to help test it
13:13:43 <MattChan> ... CSS grid and flex might be able to help
13:13:57 <MattChan> ... i.e. having it reflow so that the content can be scrolled vertically
13:14:31 <MattChan> ... also as part of our global certification, I can make sure that our best practices here will get sent out to all our certified publishers and conversion vendors
13:14:47 <MattChan> ... also able to help with Daisy stuff
13:14:54 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:15:18 <MattChan> duga: one thing we could add is where the text in these books is, and how it is laid out
13:15:33 <MattChan> ... we can then zoom the text only in these areas (e.g. the bubbles in a comic book)
13:15:40 <George> q+
13:15:47 <MattChan> ... not sure if anyone would actually take advantage of this though
13:16:08 <MattChan> ... might work better for some genres (i.e. cookbook) than other (i.e. illustrated children's books)
13:16:19 <wendyreid> ack George
13:16:22 <MattChan> ... so its not necessarily a technical limitation as much as a buy-in limitation
13:17:03 <MattChan> George: if you could go into a mode where you're walking the text, tab from one text object to the next, while having those enlarged, then each one could be enlarged, spoken, and brailled at the same time
13:17:11 <MattChan> duga: that can solve the problem
13:17:38 <MattChan> ... you get issues where you have a line of text that already stretches the length of the screen, so you're not sure how to reflow it
13:17:47 <MattChan> ... but yes, that's what we do for our comic book reader
13:17:58 <CharlesL> q+
13:18:15 <MattChan> wendyreid: regions navigation was a good idea that never got implemented
13:18:25 <MattChan> duga: except for our bubbles implementation
13:18:44 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:18:48 <MattChan> wendyreid: some RSes have done it on the RS side without collaboration with authors/publishers
13:19:13 <MattChan> CharlesL: if there were alt-text/ARIA labels, couldn't you use those instead of source text?
13:19:33 <MattChan> duga: comic books are often pure images, so there's nothing to stick an ARIA label on
13:19:47 <George> q+
13:19:48 <MattChan> ... you could create objects to attach those labels to, in theory
13:20:02 <wendyreid> ack George
13:20:12 <MattChan> ... one publisher created a font that is a replica of their hand lettering, an idea
13:20:30 <MattChan> George: the EUAA will not allow FXL that are not accessible to be sold
13:20:45 <MattChan> ... the legal hammer is probably going to have an impact on what gets done
13:20:59 <MattChan> ... we have opportunities here to come up with technical solutions that people will embrace
13:21:12 <MattChan> wendyreid: timing-wise we're in a good place
13:21:46 <MattChan> ... i think in terms of the tone of our best practices, its worth reminding people that a lot of things don't really need to be FXL
13:21:53 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:22:13 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:22:18 <MattChan> ... we can provide ways to do things in FXL but also some alternatives (e.g. flexbox even in reflow content)
13:22:48 <gpellegrino> q+
13:23:20 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: i'm a fan of the approach of having more than one output (e.g. an FXL version marked with the appropriate Schema warnings), and then have a maximally accessible 2nd version
13:23:34 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:23:57 <George> q+
13:24:01 <MattChan> gpellegrino: 10 years ago i did some experiments with FXL using only responsible CSS (so not flexbox etc.), and it worked on some RS but not on others
13:24:10 <MattChan> ... that could be a quite simple way that we can test
13:24:14 <wendyreid> ack George
13:24:30 <MattChan> George: 25 years ago people would put up a separate website for the blind
13:24:33 <MattChan> ... but it was a total failure
13:24:44 <MattChan> ... and lead to clear recommendations that that was not the right approach
13:24:57 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:25:01 <MattChan> ... having a version for people with disabilities probably would not be accepted
13:25:10 <MattChan> ... though it would work
13:25:21 <MattChan> ... and now with better metadata it would be discoverable
13:25:46 <MattChan> ... and under EUAA you couldn't sell the inaccessible version unless an accessible version existed
13:26:13 <MattChan> wendyreid: this kind of falls into the alternative version idea, and there are already organizations that do this sort of work
13:26:38 <MattChan> George: back then my idea was that multiple renditions would be used to package up fixed and reflow versions of the same content in one package
13:26:43 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:27:43 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: i'd be happy for the more accessible versions to be in the same package
13:28:18 <MattChan> ... if the alt-text etc. gets worked out, i can see how we could generate a more textual version
13:28:28 <MattChan> ... i wonder if it makes more sense to think of the versions as textual vs visual
13:28:48 <MattChan> ... seems to tie more into the Schema accessModes
13:29:17 <MattChan> wendyreid: there's a reason we've removed multiple rendition from the core spec
13:29:30 <MattChan> ... we need these recommendations to reflect how publishers, RSes, do books today
13:29:52 <MattChan> ... asking for a publisher to create multiple versions of a title aren't going to work
13:30:01 <MattChan> ... that's why we have conversion houses
13:30:25 <MattChan> ... any help we provide should steer people towards making a single better version
13:30:44 <MattChan> ... with push behind born accessible, it seems like publishers are more interested in providing a single better version
13:30:58 <George> q+
13:31:04 <wendyreid> ack George
13:31:33 <MattChan> George: so we do not want to rely on alternate version producers to provide accessible versions of these products
13:31:48 <MattChan> ... we should be figuring out the best solutions and practices that will allow AT to get at the underlying information
13:32:18 <MattChan> ... to me that means that the image representation of text is pulled out by alt-text, ARIA, whatever, and that those strings can be reflowed and reordered
13:32:51 <CharlesL> q+
13:32:52 <MattChan> wendyreid: we can't change the spec, so what we recommend will be best practice, code samples, example book
13:33:07 <MattChan> George: and we have to identify two mainstream implementations that can render that content
13:33:13 <duga> q+
13:33:15 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:33:39 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:33:42 <MattChan> CharlesL: the other thing i was going to mention is that once we have some options available we could create a test book for epubtest.org for testing on a number of different RSes
13:34:01 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:34:03 <MattChan> duga: since we're not changing the spec, two implementations aren't actually required
13:34:08 <gpellegrino> q+
13:34:10 <MattChan> ... no normative statments
13:34:15 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:34:21 <MattChan> wendyreid: we're also not having anything to do with testing HTML or CSS, so yes
13:34:47 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: sometimes when you present an FXL to RS that isn't able to display that content, it gives you a stream of modified content
13:34:59 <MattChan> ... maybe that's what we should be thinking about
13:35:07 <MattChan> ... a different way to view the same epub
13:35:40 <MattChan> wendyreid: a RS that is doing that isn't really following the spec, which requires that FXL work
13:35:44 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:35:53 <MattChan> ... but its better than breaking completely since it is, at least, a kind of fallback
13:36:32 <MattChan> gpellegrino: agreed re. the need for implementations, but since FXL support is inconsistent, I think we should at least map whether our recommendations work across RSes
13:37:00 <MattChan> wendyreid: if we counter situations in our examples where our recommendations don't work, might be work leaving a note for the RS implementors
13:37:08 <George> q+
13:37:12 <wendyreid> ack George
13:37:12 <MattChan> s/we counter/we encounter
13:38:12 <MattChan> George: we see in education that there are organizations like Bookshare and Access Text Network, that if there is a commercial version available that is DRMed, then those versions can be made available DRM-free
13:38:30 <MattChan> ... if we could identify RSes that are better for accessibility than others that would be useful
13:38:37 <MattChan> ... people could be directed to those RSes
13:38:51 <MattChan> ... and also give other RS developers incentives to do in those directions
13:39:31 <MattChan> wendyreid: maybe we could work with epubtest once we have those best practice examples
13:40:26 <MattChan> ... if our recommendations meet EUAA, then yes, this would give RSes and content producers incentives if they want to continue operating in the EU
13:40:45 <MattChan> George: for epubtest we've decided to come out with new titles to test experimental features
13:40:59 <MattChan> ... i'm in the process of creating a 90-day plan for epubtest
13:41:11 <MattChan> ... should I include an experimental FXL book in that plan?
13:41:21 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, i think so
13:41:24 <MattChan> ... and i can help
13:41:56 <MattChan> gpellegrino: the test books on epub test are mainly for testing if features work, not much content in them
13:42:12 <MattChan> ... but yes, we could have an FXL one
13:42:50 <MattChan> wendyreid: for the Daisy KB update and the best practices, we have volunteers
13:43:01 <MattChan> ... the volunteers should be put in touch with mgarrish
13:43:15 <MattChan> ... volunteers please review what is currently in the FXL section of the KB
13:43:15 <wendyreid> http://kb.daisy.org/publishing/docs/fxl/index.html
13:43:33 <MattChan> ... think about where we can expand on that, and come up with a plan to address those gaps
13:43:40 <MattChan> ... then share that with the rest of the group please
13:43:49 <MattChan> ... for best practices we have the doc that Ken shared
13:43:55 <MattChan> ... we can convert that into framework
13:44:17 <MattChan> ... i've talked to mgarrish and ivan about setting up a folder on github for that purpose
13:44:21 <MattChan> ... agreed?
13:44:40 <MattChan> ... and we'd want these back by next week?
13:44:46 <MattChan> will: we'll do our best
13:44:58 <MattChan> George: Marisa uses github to manage the books in the epubtest repo
13:45:04 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:45:05 <MattChan> ... you can just put your test FXL in that same repo
13:45:10 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:45:23 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: would it be a good idea to get some content early on
13:45:38 <MattChan> ... to compare against what already exists
13:45:45 <MattChan> ... if so, where would that content come from?
13:45:51 <MattChan> ... do we need samples from publishers?
13:45:56 <duga> q+
13:45:58 <gpellegrino> q+
13:46:03 <MattChan> wendyreid: we'd need to find some, or make so, yes
13:46:12 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:46:36 <MattChan> duga: one of the problems is that there are so many esoteric use-cases of FXL
13:46:45 <MattChan> ... there isn't really a representative FXL book
13:47:06 <MattChan> ... sometimes its all pictures, sometimes its SVGs, sometimes there are images and text overlaid
13:47:12 <MattChan> ... we may need more than one sample book
13:47:26 <MattChan> wendyreid: we'll need at least one sample of each representative archetype
13:47:44 <MattChan> ... kids book, comic, recipe, coffee table, etc.
13:48:02 <MattChan> will: might be able to get a sample FXL, but it wouldn't be in English. OK?
13:48:07 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, that would be great
13:48:20 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:48:21 <MattChan> ... don't want to fall into a trap of making our recommendations anglo-centric
13:48:25 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:48:38 <MattChan> gpellegrino: do we have statistics on the usage of FXL?
13:48:45 <duga> q+
13:48:48 <MattChan> ... are they more used by children, etc.?
13:49:00 <MattChan> ... to help us narrow down the 5 or so use-cases to start with
13:49:18 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:49:35 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: does the content need to be totally public domain?
13:49:54 <MattChan> ... publishers probably want to volunteer, but might not want to share their content forever...
13:49:56 <George> q+
13:50:13 <MattChan> wendyreid: it doesn't have to be public domain, but it'd have to be postable on a github...
13:50:25 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:50:28 <MattChan> ... if we could use public domain content then we don't have to worry about any of that
13:50:51 <MattChan> duga: i have access to content that my parent company owns, and we're under strict licensing, so we can't contribute it
13:51:20 <MattChan> ... and the types of FXL content most commonly used will depend on territory
13:51:30 <MattChan> ... e.g. in JP it would be manga
13:51:38 <wendyreid> ack George
13:51:48 <MattChan> wendyreid: for us it would be kids books, comics, textbooks, in that order
13:52:32 <MattChan> George: one approach would be for publisher to give permissions for use of a small portion of a copywritten work
13:52:46 <duga> q+
13:52:53 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:53:08 <MattChan> duga: we could ask publishers for silly demo books
13:53:18 <MattChan> ... i.e. we give them content that they run through their tool chain
13:53:24 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:53:27 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:53:27 <MattChan> wendyreid: good idea
13:53:44 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: we want the examples to be professional content
13:53:55 <MattChan> ... maybe we could get extracts?
13:54:08 <MattChan> ... i've written a children's book, and might be able to clear rights to the illustrations...
13:54:10 <George> q+
13:54:20 <wendyreid> ack George
13:54:56 <MattChan> George: this is a good opportunity to have the CG working with the business group, we can ask the business group for help here
13:55:06 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, I can ask
13:55:34 <MattChan> ... maybe ask for the same amount of content that a publisher would agree to post as a sample
13:55:44 <Ken_Jones> q+
13:55:48 <MattChan> ... is everyone clear on what we need from them for next week?
13:55:50 <wendyreid> ack Ken_Jones
13:56:03 <MattChan> Ken_Jones: so I'll look through the KB?
13:56:14 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, i'll send summary email along with minutes after we end
13:57:00 <MattChan> ... thank you, we'll see you again soon
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13:58:40 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:58:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/13-epub-fxl-minutes.html ivan
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14:00:39 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
14:00:48 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/13-epub-fxl-minutes.html ivan
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