14:44:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
14:44:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/09-rdf-star-irc
14:44:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:44:42 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), pchampin
14:44:46 <pchampin> meeting: RDF-star
14:44:48 <pchampin> chair: pchampin
14:45:09 <pchampin> date: 9 April 2021
14:45:19 <pchampin> present+
14:45:34 <pchampin> Previous meeting: https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/Minutes/2021-03-26.html
14:45:34 <pchampin> Next meeting: https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/Minutes/2021-04-16.html
14:48:28 <pchampin> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star/2021Apr/0002.html
14:48:28 <agendabot> clear agenda
14:48:28 <agendabot> agenda+ Announcements and newcomers
14:48:28 <agendabot> agenda+ Open actions
14:48:28 <agendabot> agenda+ RDF-star and dataset canonicalization
14:48:28 <agendabot> agenda+ Old or new media-types for RDF-star
14:48:31 <agendabot> agenda+ Open-ended discussions
14:57:49 <pchampin> pchampin has joined #rdf-star
14:59:48 <rivettp> rivettp has joined #rdf-star
14:59:55 <james> james has joined #rdf-star
15:00:01 <rivettp> present+
15:00:13 <gkellogg> gkellogg has joined #rdf-star
15:01:14 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
15:01:24 <james> present+
15:01:35 <william> william has joined #rdf-star
15:02:55 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
15:03:04 <ora> present+
15:03:36 <AndyS> present+
15:04:38 <gkellogg> present+
15:06:10 <pchampin> zakim, pick a scribe
15:06:10 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ora
15:06:57 <pchampin> scribe: ora
15:07:08 <pchampin> zakim, next agendum
15:07:08 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements and newcomers -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:08:11 <ora> new member: Julián
15:09:20 <ora> pchampin: I will take some time off next week, will not be on next call
15:09:35 <ora> pchampin: who will be the chair?
15:10:26 <ora> pchampin: propose we skip next week
15:10:38 <pchampin> q?
15:11:10 <ora> pchampin: new pull request from gkellogg
15:11:16 <gkellogg> q+
15:11:21 <ora> pchampin: Trig*
15:11:28 <pchampin> ack gkellogg
15:11:43 <pchampin> s/Trig*/Trig-star/
15:12:06 <ora> gkellogg: still some questions to be worked out
15:12:28 <ora> gkellogg: e.g., ordering
15:13:02 <ora> pchampin: examples in abstract syntax is a good idea
15:13:21 <ora> andys: prefer Turtle* first
15:13:58 <Julian> Julian has joined #rdf-star
15:13:58 <AndyS> q+ to say that there is a TriX-star implementation (!!)
15:14:19 <ora> gkellogg: will do a PR for ordering
15:14:31 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
15:14:37 <pchampin> q?
15:15:39 <pchampin> ACTION: gkellogg to reorder the concrete sections: Turtle-star, TriG-star, N-Triples-star, N-Quads-star
15:15:56 <pchampin> q?
15:16:01 <pchampin> ack AndyS
15:16:01 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to say that there is a TriX-star implementation (!!)
15:16:30 <ora> andys: I did a TriX-star implementation, for no reason whatosever
15:16:46 <ora> s/whatosever/whatsoever
15:17:14 <pchampin> q?
15:17:27 <pchampin> zakim, next agendum
15:17:27 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Open actions -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:17:43 <ora> pchampin: no open actions
15:17:49 <gkellogg> I updated my TriX implementation too :)
15:18:17 <Julian> Julian has joined #rdf-star
15:18:41 <AndyS> The 2nd draft discussion -- https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/Minutes/2021-03-19.html#t04
15:18:46 <pchampin> topic: publishing a new draft
15:18:47 <ora> pchampin: canonicalization will probably not make it to the next draft
15:19:33 <ora> pchampin: we discussed that a new draft sooner rather than later would be a good thing
15:19:45 <ora> pchampin: publish often and early
15:19:59 <ora> pchampin: some things are pending...
15:20:51 <ora> pchampin: 5 PRs
15:21:11 <ora> pchampin: some have no impact on the draft
15:21:44 <ora> pchampin: test suite
15:21:46 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/pull/149
15:22:41 <ora> phampin: does not stop us from publishing
15:22:52 <ora> s/phampin/pchampin
15:23:42 <ora> (audio weirdness, did not capture everything...)
15:24:01 <ora> now fine again...
15:24:16 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/pull/129
15:24:30 <ora> pchampin: long standing PR: clarification of SPARQL functions
15:24:46 <ora> james: that's what I wanted to add
15:25:01 <ora> pchampin: olaf wanted to remove some examples
15:25:14 <ora> pchampin: recommend merging anyway
15:25:18 <pchampin> q?
15:25:43 <pchampin> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/pull/155
15:26:12 <ora> pchampin: recent PR: extending the overview with examples using annotation syntax
15:26:38 <ora> pchampin: propose we leave a few days for people to react, merge next week
15:26:53 <ora> pchampin: after these merges we should publish
15:27:28 <pchampin> PROPOSAL: merge PR 129 and 155 after a few days, and then release next public draft
15:27:34 <pchampin> +1
15:27:41 <william> +1
15:27:42 <gkellogg> +1
15:27:56 <ora> ora: +1
15:28:07 <james> +1
15:28:08 <rivettp> +1
15:28:20 <AndyS> +1
15:28:30 <TallTed> +1
15:28:36 <TallTed> present+
15:29:02 <Julian> +1
15:29:04 <ora> pchampin: reminding we are not a formal group, wrt. voting
15:29:35 <pchampin> RESOLVED: merge PR 129 and 155 after a few days, and then release next public draft
15:29:48 <pchampin> q?
15:30:10 <ora> andys: what is the most pressing issue to close?
15:30:28 <ora> pchampin: I will be back the week after next
15:30:48 <ora> pchampin: several active issues
15:31:27 <ora> pchampin: we are in pretty good shape overall
15:31:48 <ora> pchampin: but still: introducing a new IRI
15:31:56 <ora> pchampin: mime-type
15:32:33 <ora> pchampin: do we want to include something about SHACL, possible SHEX?
15:32:43 <ora> andys: I think no need to do that
15:33:09 <ora> andys: once there is a CG report (our target), then the SHACL group can react
15:33:19 <ora> andys: similarly for SHEX
15:33:31 <ora> gkellogg: we did not address JSON-LD either
15:34:24 <ora> andys: label open issues as "discussion items"...?
15:34:56 <ora> pchampin: Notation3, semantics (at least) belong there
15:35:21 <pchampin> STRAWPOLL: we won't include anything in our report about SHACL not SHEX
15:35:47 <gkellogg> +1
15:35:50 <william> +0
15:35:54 <james> +1
15:35:57 <ora> ora: +1
15:35:58 <AndyS> +1 (better to come from those communities)
15:35:59 <Julian> +1
15:36:04 <rivettp> I think we should at least mention SHACL and OWL with an outline of possible impact
15:36:05 <pchampin> +1
15:36:07 <rivettp> -1
15:36:39 <ora> pchampin: I did not mean to not mention at all
15:37:07 <ora> pchampin: the idea is not to ignore, we can give some "leads"
15:37:28 <ora> rivettp: should be fine
15:37:32 <AndyS> FYI: OWL-star  https://w3c.github.io/rdf-star/UCR/rdf-star-ucr.html#compact-serialization-of-owl-graphs  -- from https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star/issues/148
15:37:34 <rivettp> +1
15:38:19 <ora> pchampin: next public draft is very close to a final report
15:38:28 <pchampin> q?
15:38:30 <ora> pchampin: editorial changes notwithstanding
15:38:43 <pchampin> zakim, next agendum
15:38:43 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- RDF-star and dataset canonicalization -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:38:55 <ora> pchampin: this was raised by gkellogg
15:39:26 <ora> pchampin: there is a W3C WG charter proposed, linked data signature
15:39:41 <ora> pchampin: standard way of signing RDF datasets
15:39:51 <ora> pchampin: hence canonicalization
15:40:15 <ora> pchampin: question was raised about RDF* during preparation
15:40:33 <ora> pchampin: RDF* included in the proposed charter
15:40:47 <AndyS> s/RDF*/RDF-star/
15:41:03 <ora> pchampin: understanding that RDF-star will not be a Rec by then
15:41:17 <ora> (thank you AndyS)
15:41:54 <ora> pchampin: dataset defined in terms of triples, nothing about embedded triples
15:42:06 <ora> pchampin: clarification is needed
15:42:49 <ora> gkellogg: canonicalization is challenging (math proofs), extending to RDF-star could be problematic
15:43:30 <ora> gkellogg: RDF-star dataset transformed to RDF dataset could be signed
15:43:43 <ora> gkellogg: but now we would have two versions of the same
15:44:30 <ora> gkellogg: let's not use language that restricts our work too much
15:44:40 <pchampin> q?
15:45:21 <ora> andys: how about a short section about principles (embedded triples, etc.), any future work on RDF will need to deal with these
15:45:34 <ora> andys: that is, set requirements rather than offering solutions
15:45:47 <ora> gkellogg: they may not heed any of that
15:47:16 <ora> gkellogg: solution may involve introduction of a new vocabulary
15:47:48 <ora> gkellogg: make it possible to do a reverse transformation
15:48:28 <ora> andys: RDF-star system understand embedded triples natively, this may be a problem
15:48:37 <ora> pchampin: hidden IRIs...
15:48:59 <ora> andys: my point was that they are not isomorphic
15:49:13 <ora> gkellogg: canonical does not have to imply isomorphic
15:49:31 <ora> andys: what if two different things have the same canonicalization, because we missed something?
15:50:07 <ora> andys: you may need to know that something was originally RDF-star
15:50:20 <gkellogg> Link to RDF C14N draft: https://json-ld.github.io/rdf-dataset-canonicalization/spec/
15:50:43 <ora> pchampin: introduce reification predicates only for this purpose?
15:51:21 <ora> pchampin: an RDF graph using these would be identified as coming from RDF-star
15:52:06 <ora> gkellogg: canonicalization algorithm should introduce extensible steps [?]
15:52:45 <ora> gkellogg: it is not our job to solve this, but make it possible for future groups to solve it
15:53:12 <ora> gkellogg: this is not simple to implement
15:53:48 <ora> gkellogg: math proof is required, changing the algorithm would invalidate the proof
15:54:09 <ora> andys: IRI spec explains how to turn an IRI into a URI
15:54:39 <ora> pchampin: what do we do after publishing the 2nd draft?
15:55:00 <ora> andys: mention it in the charter...
15:55:19 <ora> andys: we will not be recommending changes to the algorithm
15:55:46 <ora> gkellogg: similar to n3 and lists
15:56:09 <ora> pchampin: we will liaise at some point
15:56:25 <ora> pchampin: not much more we can do
15:56:44 <ora> pchampin: no time to discuss media type this time
15:56:46 <pchampin> q?
15:57:17 <pchampin> Topic: open-ended discussion
15:57:24 <ora> gkellogg: namespace for hidden triples?
15:57:47 <ora> pchampin: type for hidden triples?
15:58:12 <ora> andys: new extension namespace for all groups to use
15:58:25 <ora> andys: "rdfx"
15:58:46 <ora> pchampin: temporary use?
15:59:00 <ora> andys: that is the idea, but reality may be different
15:59:19 <ora> andys: creating things is easy, getting rid of them not so much
15:59:59 <ora> pchampin: we could create a temporary RDF-star namespace, just as easy to fix (or not)
16:00:16 <ora> q+
16:00:56 <ora> pchampin: put a time extent on these
16:01:19 <AndyS> e.g. https://w3.org/ns/rdfx
16:01:31 <ora> andys: what's under "ns" at W3C?
16:02:07 <pchampin> scribe: pchampin
16:02:16 <pchampin> ora: I don't understand the need for that NS
16:02:21 <pchampin> ... namespaces are cheap
16:02:30 <pchampin> ... the essential thing is that they must be unique
16:02:46 <pchampin> ... This notion of shared namespace is a misuse of the concept.
16:03:21 <pchampin> ... It may create clashed, which namespaces were invented to prevent.
16:03:31 <rivettp> I think rdf namespaces are a mess because we have too many - people don't know when to use rdfs vs rdf
16:04:19 <william> yes, indeed
16:04:20 <ora> scribe: ora
16:04:43 <pchampin> q?
16:04:54 <ora> gkellogg: there is a difference between something that is eventually meant for, say, the RDF namespace, as opposed to something that remains separate
16:04:56 <pchampin> ack ora
16:05:16 <william> thanks!
16:05:19 <gkellogg> We need a CG to discuss transitional IRIs :)
16:05:46 <ora> bye
16:06:07 <AndyS> zakim, end meeting
16:06:07 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pchampin, rivettp, james, ora, AndyS, gkellogg, TallTed
16:06:09 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:06:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/09-rdf-star-minutes.html Zakim
16:06:12 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, AndyS; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:06:16 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
16:06:25 <AndyS> rrsagent, please make logs public
16:06:35 <AndyS> rrsagent, please excuse us
16:06:35 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/09-rdf-star-actions.rdf :
16:06:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gkellogg to reorder the concrete sections: Turtle-star, TriG-star, N-Triples-star, N-Quads-star [1]
16:06:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/04/09-rdf-star-irc#T15-15-39