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13:47:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-epub-a11y-irc
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13:47:58 <avneeshsingh> zakim, this will be epub-a11y
13:47:58 <Zakim> ok, avneeshsingh
13:48:25 <avneeshsingh> present+
13:48:40 <avneeshsingh> chair: avneeshsingh
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13:59:47 <wendyreid> present+
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14:00:21 <BenSchroeter> present+
14:00:52 <gpellegrino> present+
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14:01:04 <mgarrish> present+
14:01:10 <CharlesL> present+
14:01:43 <MattChan> scribe+
14:02:01 <avneeshsingh> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/a11y/index.html
14:02:15 <avneeshsingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1600
14:02:15 <MattChan> TOPIC: Source-of example to techniques document
14:02:42 <MattChan> mgarrish: just a question going back to 3.1 when we were expecting to drop refines
14:02:50 <tzviya> present+
14:03:03 <MattChan> ... up to 3.1 we used to say it was required to put source-of when you had pagelist
14:03:11 <MattChan> ... that is gone now
14:03:18 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:03:28 <MattChan> ... do we still want to recommend source-of?
14:03:39 <MattChan> ... given that there can be multiple dc:source elements in an epub
14:03:55 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:03:57 <MattChan> ... the example would mostly be for guidance, an example
14:04:10 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: so it would not be normative, it would be a technique
14:04:13 <gpellegrino> q+
14:04:21 <MattChan> mgarrish: yes, just a demonstration
14:04:27 <avneeshsingh> ack gp
14:04:44 <MattChan> gpellegrino: i think this requirement is checked by epubcheck or ACE
14:05:10 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:05:12 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
14:05:15 <MattChan> mgarrish: yes, it is required to have dc:source, but not required to have that source identified by this attribute
14:05:29 <George> present+
14:05:34 <CharlesL> q+
14:05:37 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: so, should we include an example of this in the techniques?
14:05:41 <avneeshsingh> ack charles
14:05:42 <MattChan> ... i think there is no harm in it
14:06:17 <MattChan> CharlesL: in GCA we just got a book from WIPO, and they have a dc:source, but they had a refines there pointing to ONIX codelist 5
14:06:36 <MattChan> ... instead of pointing to something about pagination
14:06:41 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:06:46 <MattChan> gpellegrino: that means that the source code is an ISBN
14:07:09 <MattChan> CharlesL: we've been recommending the use of source-of in GCA
14:07:19 <avneeshsingh> Proposed: Add accessibility technique for dc:source metadata.
14:07:29 <gpellegrino> +1
14:07:30 <MattChan> +1
14:07:30 <CharlesL> +1
14:07:31 <wendyreid> +1
14:07:32 <mgarrish> +1
14:07:35 <BenSchroeter> +1
14:07:40 <avneeshsingh> resolved
14:07:43 <George> +1
14:08:22 <avneeshsingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1608
14:08:24 <MattChan> TOPIC: Where is the right place to put the language about RS a11y?
14:08:42 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: this used to be in the appendix
14:08:52 <MattChan> mgarrish: this was considered out of scope for ISO
14:08:59 <MattChan> ... they wanted to focus spec on just the content aspect
14:09:08 <MattChan> ... so this went into the appendix in a11y 1.0
14:10:06 <tzviya> q+
14:10:12 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:10:13 <MattChan> ... question is whether we should be incorporating this into RS spec
14:10:33 <MattChan> ... part of the problem is that we can't tie this to a specific test suite
14:11:25 <MattChan> ... there are also questions about CSS overrides, etc. and we can't really mandate a particular solution
14:11:40 <avneeshsingh> ack tzviy
14:11:40 <MattChan> ... but we can at least flesh out this recommendation language in the RS spec
14:11:57 <MattChan> tzviya: agreed, but I think this is an opportunity for us to work with SILVER
14:12:31 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:12:32 <wendyreid> q+
14:12:45 <avneeshsingh> ack wendy
14:12:50 <George> q+
14:12:52 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: so for our current revision of the spec, are we leaning towards including this sort of language in the RS spec, or keep it in the a11y spec?
14:12:59 <MattChan> wendyreid: agree with mgarrish
14:13:10 <mgarrish> q+
14:13:22 <avneeshsingh> ack george
14:13:53 <avneeshsingh> ack mg
14:14:04 <MattChan> George: including it in RS spec would make it more obvious to RS developers that a11y is important
14:15:02 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:15:17 <avneeshsingh> Proposed: add informative text for reading systems accessibility in the reading systems specifications/guidelines.
14:15:25 <mgarrish> +1
14:15:26 <gpellegrino> +1
14:15:27 <CharlesL> +1
14:15:29 <wendyreid> +1
14:15:30 <BenSchroeter> +1
14:15:31 <MattChan> +1
14:15:34 <tzviya> +1
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14:15:37 <George> +1
14:15:40 <avneeshsingh> resolved
14:15:44 <CharlesL> q+
14:15:48 <juliette_alexandria> present +
14:16:10 <avneeshsingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1599
14:16:16 <CharlesL> q-
14:16:18 <MattChan> TOPIC: dc:source where there is no page source
14:16:45 <MattChan> mgarrish: the reason i opened this issue is to deal with dc:source for epub with no print equivalent
14:17:18 <MattChan> ... we have a requirement where if you have pagelist then you have to identify source, but when there is no print equivalent there is no source
14:17:24 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:17:26 <BenSchroeter> q+
14:17:28 <MattChan> ... so the epub became its own source
14:17:33 <MattChan> ... doesn't really make sense
14:17:45 <avneeshsingh> ack ben
14:18:02 <MattChan> ... so suggest that where there is no print equivalent that we relax this requirement
14:18:15 <CharlesL> q+
14:18:26 <George> q+
14:18:29 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: tie to virtual page numbers, which are often determined by RS, and therefore could not be included in epub metadata when created
14:18:32 <avneeshsingh> ack charles
14:19:01 <MattChan> CharlesL: that would be if there are no pagebreaks in the epub itself
14:19:20 <MattChan> ... if there were already pagebreaks in the digital only epub, then the RS would just use those
14:19:39 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:19:44 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: but if they're included in the epub, then they aren't virtual anymore, right?
14:20:03 <MattChan> mgarrish: yeah, this is a source of confusion. What it means for a pagebreak to be "virtual"
14:20:35 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: CharlesL can you open a new issue to discuss these sorts of use-case issues?
14:20:43 <MattChan> CharlesL: yeah
14:20:45 <avneeshsingh> ack georrge
14:20:56 <MattChan> TOPIC: Plan for creating EUAA explainer
14:21:20 <MattChan> Cristina: we've started working on the document, we're about half way done at this point
14:21:33 <MattChan> ... the first sharable draft should be ready within 10 days or so
14:21:48 <MattChan> ... we will share around for review and comment before sending to commission
14:22:12 <MattChan> ... the idea is that we will put not only epub, but also metadata
14:22:22 <MattChan> ... i.e. ONIX and Schema
14:22:44 <tzviya> q+
14:22:48 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:23:05 <MattChan> ... we're going to give the context that there are already industry wide standards
14:23:20 <MattChan> ... and then present the mapping we've done between the requirements of the EUAA and the a11y spec
14:23:34 <MattChan> ... and that the spec has been created in open process, from non-profit org
14:23:48 <MattChan> ... and then similar sections re. metadata
14:24:24 <MattChan> ... for metadata we have to explain that the existing format is used throughout the value chain
14:24:50 <MattChan> ... and then we can show that required metadata about a11y is included in the prevailing metadata format
14:24:52 <avneeshsingh> ack george
14:25:06 <avneeshsingh> ack tz
14:25:13 <MattChan> tzviya: I'd love to help
14:25:41 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:25:55 <MattChan> ... Laura Brady and I wrote a small explainer about EUAA, specifically targeted towards a N.American publisher audience
14:26:24 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: about the mapping document, is it now outdated because our a11y spec has evolved?
14:26:41 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:26:47 <MattChan> ... e.g. the EUAA requirement that DRM not block a11y, and the changes our to distribution section
14:26:59 <MattChan> Cristina: we probably won't put the table into the explainer
14:27:19 <MattChan> ... the readers of the explainer will not be technical, so we will describe it
14:27:30 <George> q+
14:27:31 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:28:10 <avneeshsingh> ack george
14:28:32 <MattChan> George: should table be converted into something in HTML so it is easier to reference?
14:28:51 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:28:53 <MattChan> gpellegrino: sure, I can do that and publish it in a repo. Just tell me which one.
14:29:01 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: sure, I will get back to you
14:29:10 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:29:58 <MattChan> TOPIC: Page source when no source document (continued)
14:29:58 <avneeshsingh> Topic: back to source no source issue
14:30:46 <MattChan> CharlesL: so if we're not going to have dc:source for digital only documents, how are RS to know that pagebreaks exist in the document?
14:30:48 <George> q+
14:31:17 <MattChan> ... this is not necessarily an a11y thing
14:31:31 <avneeshsingh> ack goerge
14:31:36 <MattChan> ... but the distinction between embedded pagebreaks and pagebreaks created dynamically by RS is still important
14:31:51 <MattChan> George: i think RS putting in its own pagebreaks is a really bad idea due to lack of consistency
14:32:01 <MattChan> ... having pagebreaks come from publisher is ideal
14:32:24 <MattChan> ... but we know that some distributors are planning to put in their own pagebreaks where they don't already exist because they see the value of it
14:32:36 <BenSchroeter> q+
14:32:48 <avneeshsingh> ack geo
14:32:53 <tzviya> q+ to propose source
14:32:54 <avneeshsingh> ack ben
14:33:11 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: i don't think we can make it a requirement, but we can make it a strongly worded best practice
14:33:44 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: dc:source is not only for print equivalent, it could also be for FXL version, PDF, etc.
14:33:45 <avneeshsingh> ack tzk
14:34:00 <George> q+
14:34:11 <MattChan> tzviya: we have digital only pubs, and we included page numbers
14:34:22 <MattChan> ... i think we made the dc:source the same as the ISBN of the epub
14:34:43 <CharlesL> q+
14:34:45 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: yes, this was the state of things in a11y 1.0
14:34:48 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:34:56 <avneeshsingh> ack tzv
14:34:56 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to propose source
14:35:10 <MattChan> tzviya: and then publishers would decide where to put those digital only pagebreaks in
14:35:10 <avneeshsingh> ack george
14:35:24 <MattChan> ... and maybe we can just write some best practice about how to do that
14:35:49 <MattChan> George: that algorithm is sometimes determined by the authoring tool used by the publisher
14:35:50 <wendyreid> q+
14:36:00 <avneeshsingh> ack charles
14:36:29 <MattChan> CharlesL: to tzviya's point, I think the whole self-referencing thing was what mgarrish was trying to get away from
14:36:41 <MattChan> ... though I liked it
14:36:53 <George> q+
14:37:05 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: this issue will surface again the virtual locators group
14:37:11 <avneeshsingh> ack wendy
14:37:18 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/wiki/Use-Cases-for-Virtual-Locators
14:37:28 <MattChan> wendyreid: we have a wiki right now where we're gathering use-cases
14:37:39 <MattChan> ... these questions are worth including
14:37:48 <avneeshsingh> ack geor
14:38:58 <MattChan> George: why is self-referential source bad? Maybe we can just clarify in the spec that where there is no print equivalent then the source should just be the epub itself
14:39:22 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: CharlesL you can open a new issue about these various use-cases
14:39:27 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:39:36 <gpellegrino> q+
14:39:40 <MattChan> TOPIC: AOB?
14:39:57 <avneeshsingh> ack gp
14:40:28 <MattChan> gpellegrino: in a11y 1.1 we don't mention about FXL anywhere. Do you think we have to mention it? Or say there is no solution to have them fully accessible right now?
14:40:49 <MattChan> ... the current spec can mislead publisher into thinking that all epubs can be fully accessible right now
14:40:51 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:41:20 <wendyreid> q+
14:41:24 <MattChan> George: i think we should be careful when it comes to FXL guidance. I've read FXLs that have been okay, but I'm not sure what the publisher had to do to get it that way
14:41:51 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:41:59 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: what gpellegrino is suggesting is more of cautionary language, i think
14:42:23 <avneeshsingh> ack wendy
14:42:59 <MattChan> wendyreid: i think it's worth mentioning in a11y 1.1 that FXL books are different from reflow...
14:43:26 <MattChan> ... even though you can apply many of the principles of a11y spec to FXL book and get something very readable
14:43:40 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:43:46 <MattChan> ... just highlight that there are special considerations for FXL content
14:44:00 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: anything else?
14:44:31 <MattChan> George: there are videos produced by education and outreach group and they would like to know if publishing is properly represented in their content. They're looking for a review.
14:44:41 <MattChan> ... should I post this to the epub 3.3 list?
14:44:56 <avneeshsingh> q?
14:44:59 <MattChan> ... its more of a publishing in general question, although it does involve a11y
14:45:16 <MattChan> tzviya: I'll add it to the steering committee agenda this week
14:45:22 <MattChan> ... can you link me to it?
14:45:29 <MattChan> George: yes, i'll dig it out and send it to you
14:46:17 <avneeshsingh> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:46:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-epub-a11y-minutes.html avneeshsingh
14:47:36 <avneeshsingh> rrsagent bye
14:48:21 <avneeshsingh> zakim, bye
14:48:21 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been avneeshsingh, wendyreid, BenSchroeter, gpellegrino, mgarrish, CharlesL, tzviya, George
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16:10:40 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:10:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/04/08-epub-a11y-minutes.html Ralph
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