13:20:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #personalization
13:20:07 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/29-personalization-irc
13:20:09 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:20:10 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), sharon
13:20:48 <sharon> meeting: Personalization Task Force
13:21:04 <sharon> rrsagent, make logs public
13:21:37 <sharon> agenda?
13:21:57 <sharon> zakim, clear agenda
13:21:57 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:22:13 <sharon> agenda?
13:23:29 <sharon> agenda+ PR related to Action 79 and the [email sent to list 22 Mar 2021] (John)  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0025.html
13:23:52 <sharon> agenda+ Text for data-purpose related to our values for calendar, dates, and language, etc. (Janina) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0019.html
13:24:18 <sharon> agenda+ investigate Research @rel versus @action and @destination and report back to tf (Action 78 - John)
13:25:05 <sharon> agenda+ Distinguish connotative / emotion rich decorative images from purely decorative images (John) - see ARIA issue 1427
13:26:45 <sharon> agenda+ i18 issues 144 https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144, 145 https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/145, 175 input-purpose language should reference BCP47 (no response as of today) https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/175
13:27:14 <sharon> agenda+ Review other action items - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki/actions
13:27:23 <sharon> chair: sharon
13:27:31 <sharon> agenda?
13:42:37 <sharon> agenda- item 3
13:42:47 <sharon> agenda?
13:43:07 <sharon> zakim, clear agenda
13:43:07 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:44:00 <sharon> agenda+ PR related to Action 79 and the [email sent to list 22 Mar 2021] (John)  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0025.html
13:44:12 <sharon> agenda+ Text for data-purpose related to our values for calendar, dates, and language, etc. (Janina) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0019.html
13:44:26 <sharon> agenda+ investigate Research @rel versus @action and @destination and report back to tf (Action 78 - John)
13:45:40 <sharon> agenda+ i18n issues 144, 145, 175 - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/
13:46:01 <sharon> agenda+ Review other action items https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki/actions
13:46:09 <sharon> agenda+
13:46:16 <sharon> agenda?
13:54:32 <janina> janina has joined #personalization
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14:00:56 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #personalization
14:02:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #personalization
14:03:04 <CharlesL> present+
14:03:06 <becky> becky has joined #personalization
14:03:08 <CharlesL> agenda?
14:03:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe: Lionel_Wolberger
14:03:12 <janina> present+
14:03:13 <Matthew_Atkinson> present+
14:03:14 <sharon> present+
14:03:22 <becky> present+
14:03:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda, take up item 1
14:03:27 <JF> Present+
14:03:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, take up item 1
14:03:37 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- PR related to Action 79 and the [email sent to list 22 Mar 2021] (John)  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0025.html -- taken up
14:03:40 <Zakim> ... [from sharon]
14:04:25 <JF> https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/pull/176
14:04:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: Done and in Git.
14:05:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Recap: term+term with no spaces.
14:06:54 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: merge done. waiting for the build now.
14:07:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+
14:07:54 <Lionel_Wolberger> ...
14:08:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:08:02 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Lionel_Wolberger
14:08:14 <becky> q?
14:08:15 <sharon> q?
14:08:15 <JF> Q?
14:08:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
14:08:21 <JF> ack J
14:08:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:08:35 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Text for data-purpose related to our values for calendar, dates, and language, etc. (Janina)
14:08:37 <Zakim> ... https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0019.html -- taken up [from sharon]
14:10:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: let's recap the issue.
14:11:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: Browsers store many tokens (name, address, etc) and they are generally free-form.
14:11:07 <janina> q+
14:11:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... But i18n seems to think country and language will be encoded as per ISO standards.
14:11:54 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... yet they acknowledge that country could be a text string, and not a country code
14:12:01 <sharon> ack janina
14:12:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: This is not the group for this discussion.
14:12:50 <JF> https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/6519#issuecomment-806578195
14:13:02 <Lionel_Wolberger> sharon: There are three i18n issues, which have been lingering.
14:13:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Happy to close this one for now.
14:14:07 <JF> agenda?
14:14:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> sharon: let's return to this later
14:14:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:14:29 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- investigate Research @rel versus @action and @destination and report back to tf (Action 78 - John) -- taken up [from sharon]
14:14:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, take up item 4
14:14:52 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- i18n issues 144, 145, 175 - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/ -- taken up [from sharon]
14:15:50 <becky> https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/144
14:16:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: i18n does not understand what we are trying to do here.
14:16:33 <janina> q+
14:16:41 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we are creating a machine readable taxonomy
14:17:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... stored values will be echoed back to users, and the machine is agnostic to the content of the tokens
14:17:38 <becky> q+
14:17:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I could put my language as "Pig Latin" in the browser, even though this is not a real language
14:17:52 <sharon> ack janina
14:18:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Taking this on here, in our spec, is 'above our pay grade'
14:18:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... thanks JF for filing the issue in their group
14:18:42 <JF> Q+ to note we ARE inventing something new
14:18:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I ask the group not to deep dive into it.
14:18:50 <sharon> ack becky
14:19:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: This is a little bit different. We rely on the host language, e.g. HTML, and the assistive technology will adhere to that language in its representation.
14:19:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... that may be what hthey are asking for.
14:19:34 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: We are providing the metadata
14:20:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: we do not provide the metadata, it's elsewhere in the stack. We rely on the hosting document to specify the language and the assistive technology implementing our specification will adhere to that
14:20:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: We are not creating content here, yet i18n thinks we are
14:20:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: refining the above
14:21:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we do not provide the language and direction metadata. We rely on the hosting document to specify the language and metadata.
14:21:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... the -personalization specification is expected to adhere to that information.
14:22:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: Proposing: the output is from the user's submitted content.
14:22:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Developers will run checks on it, if this content is useful (e.g., will be used by the browser)
14:23:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... meaningless stuff sont be used
14:23:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: Disagree
14:23:51 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: The format of the output can be meaningless because the machine is GIGO
14:24:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Why do we need to state it
14:24:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: Response values can all be meaningless. Pig latin. Klingon.
14:24:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: I maintain, we do not need to cite this in the response.
14:24:48 <sharon> q?
14:24:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: ... you brought it up to HTML
14:24:59 <sharon> ack JF
14:24:59 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to note we ARE inventing something new
14:25:18 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: Token values for autocomplete are being repurposing in our specification. We are inventing atsymbol, which takes a list of token values.
14:25:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we take the tokens from autocomplete, and things that autocomplete cannot be applied to
14:25:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... autocomplete cannot be applied to a fieldset
14:25:39 <janina> q?
14:25:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... or a div
14:25:49 <becky> q+
14:25:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... so we are inventing something new.
14:26:13 <sharon> ack becky
14:26:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... then we should explicitly state that this new invention is not constrained by the constraints that autocomplete is experiencing in the HTML specification
14:26:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: i18n was saying, you have these 'symbol things', but you didn't say language and direction
14:27:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... this one can be seperately set, and is not tied into 'purpose'
14:29:22 <Lionel_Wolberger> sharon: aphillips response is ambiguous. Can we close this or not?
14:30:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: I read, "Thanks for the update." as this can be closed.
14:31:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: replace 'user agent' for 'assistive technology' in the above
14:31:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: (AT, browser extension, etc.)
14:32:34 <sharon> q?
14:33:53 <CharlesL> agenda?
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14:35:10 <JF> 4 days ago: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/6519#issuecomment-806578195
14:36:44 <JF> Q+
14:37:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: the user agent seems resposnible for this language field. e.g., chrome, firefox
14:37:49 <sharon> ack JF
14:38:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: The browser is supposed to echo back whatever value the user has typed. i18n seems to expect that the browser will restrict itself to valid BCP47 values.
14:39:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... i18n does not specify who is responsible for translating it from free text to bcp47
14:39:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... my research into success criteria 1.3.5 revealed that no user agent is supporting 'language'
14:40:23 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I contend that this is due to the onerous requirement that user agents restrict input to bcp47
14:40:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... there are over 300 options, so a drop down is out of the question
14:41:15 <becky> q+
14:41:54 <sharon> ack becky
14:43:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: propose, we publish with a note regarding bcp47 guidance
14:43:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... after waiting one more week
14:45:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> PROPOSAL: Personalization notes that there is ambiguity regarding the formatting of language: i18n requested adherence to BCP47 but there is a strong opinion that such adherence would restrict user activity unnecessarily.
14:45:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: PROPOSE: The user doesn't know BCP47
14:46:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL: could link to the issue, in this note
14:46:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: there is potential ambiguity in how this is specified, and currently there is disparate implementations in user-agents
14:47:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> Autocomplete does depend on user-agents for the user-supplied values
14:48:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL: might add the link to the WHAT-WG, https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/6519
14:49:00 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1
14:50:07 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: validation is limited, and not necessarily assigned to the user-agent
14:50:18 <JF> Our spec should not be responsible for form validation
14:50:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1 to that
14:51:06 <CharlesL> q+
14:51:07 <JF> Q+
14:51:32 <sharon> ack CharlesL
14:51:48 <JF> +1 to Chalres
14:52:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> CharlesL: Users want to see human readable terms for language. Who wants to see BCP47 values in their form fields?
14:52:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:52:48 <sharon> ack JF
14:53:38 <Lionel_Wolberger> q-
14:54:26 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:55:02 <becky> q+
14:55:03 <sharon> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:55:48 <JF> s/+1 to Chalres/+1 to Charles
14:55:56 <janina> https://www.evertype.com/standards/iso639/sgn.html
14:56:05 <sharon> ack becky
14:56:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: Current practice shows, validation is not done
14:56:41 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: i18n says we should say our spec should call this out; we can say, HTML called it out. We can simply say purpose is language.
14:56:42 <JF> So we DON'T agree with i18n
14:57:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> becky: The word 'language' here is not a BCP47 reference, it is a request for a purpose value
14:57:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> JF: The spec says nothing about purpose
14:58:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: That's not good logic, since we are discussing language in general
14:58:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... our interest is about more than 'purpose', since you must then ask, 'purpose of what'
14:58:35 <JF> the3 spec says NOTHING about @purpose, it speaks to @autocomplete - and there is a bug filed there against the language value
14:58:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> sharon: Decided, we will wait another week and see what / if i18n responds
14:58:54 <JF> +1 to waiting another week
14:59:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Scheduling: skip next week, Easter Monday>
15:00:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> RESOLVED: We taking Easter Monday off.
15:01:40 <janina> janina has left #personalization
15:02:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim: end meeting
15:02:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, end meeting
15:02:59 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been janina, Matthew_Atkinson, lisask, CharlesL, Roy, becky, Lionel_Wolberger, JF, LisaSeemanKest, sharon
15:03:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:03:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/29-personalization-minutes.html Zakim
15:03:04 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Lionel_Wolberger; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:03:08 <Zakim> Zakim has left #personalization
15:04:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, please part
15:04:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items