13:20:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #personalization
13:20:26 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/22-personalization-irc
13:20:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:20:29 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), sharon
13:21:31 <sharon> meeting: APA Personalization TF Teleconference 22 Mar 2021
13:21:41 <sharon> agenda?
13:22:09 <sharon> zakim, clear agenda
13:22:09 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:22:14 <sharon> agenda?
13:22:22 <sharon> chair: sharon
13:24:18 <sharon> agenda+ Timeline - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki/Timeline
13:24:36 <sharon> agenda+ New I18N issue #175 - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/175
13:25:02 <sharon> agenda+ Text for data-purpose related to our values for calendar, dates, and language, etc. (Janina) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0019.html
13:25:38 <sharon> agenda+ Issue 79 - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0025.html (John)
13:26:11 <sharon> agenda+ 2 new values for distractions https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0020.html (John)
13:27:37 <sharon> agenda+ * Issue 78 - Research rel versus action and destination (John)
13:27:57 <sharon> agenda+ * Review other action items - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki/actions
13:28:02 <sharon> agenda?
13:59:12 <Matthew_Atkinson> Matthew_Atkinson has joined #personalization
14:00:35 <Matthew_Atkinson> present+
14:00:38 <Matthew_Atkinson> agenda?
14:01:01 <LisaSeemanKest> LisaSeemanKest has joined #personalization
14:01:47 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #personalization
14:01:59 <CharlesL> present+
14:03:27 <JF> JF has joined #personalization
14:03:31 <Matthew_Atkinson> scribe: Matthew_Atkinson
14:03:32 <JF> Present+
14:04:06 <becky> becky has joined #personalization
14:04:19 <Matthew_Atkinson> zakim, next item
14:04:19 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Timeline - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki/Timeline -- taken up [from sharon]
14:04:28 <janina> janina has joined #personalization
14:04:28 <JF> agenda?
14:04:32 <janina> present+
14:04:42 <becky> present+
14:04:56 <LisaSeemanKest> present+
14:05:13 <LisaSeemanKest> can we add cost grant to the agenda
14:05:27 <Matthew_Atkinson> sharon: Seems some deadlines may need to be pushed back slightly; is there a specific process to follow?
14:05:56 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: Best to keep APA updated (which we are doing as-and-when). Can raise in APA meeting if need be.
14:06:11 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #personalization
14:06:13 <Matthew_Atkinson> zakim, next item
14:06:13 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Matthew_Atkinson
14:06:26 <JF> Q?
14:06:27 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
14:06:46 <JF> ack bec
14:06:51 <JF> ack Li
14:07:07 <LisaSeemanKest> q=
14:08:01 <Matthew_Atkinson> LisaSeemanKest: Can we add to the agenda: if there might be funding to help young researchers get to face-to-face?
14:08:13 <sharon> ack LisaSeemanKest
14:08:26 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina, CharlesL: W3C has announced there'll be no TPAC this year.
14:08:46 <Matthew_Atkinson> s/no TPAC this year/no face-to-face TPAC this year/
14:09:09 <LisaSeemanKest> q+
14:09:31 <sharon> ack LisaSeemanKest
14:11:44 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
14:11:44 <Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: regarding TPAC, should we start preparing; put it on the agenda? [Some approval; no objections]
14:11:48 <Matthew_Atkinson> zakin, next item
14:12:25 <Matthew_Atkinson> zakim, next item
14:12:25 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- New I18N issue #175 - https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/175 -- taken up [from sharon]
14:12:54 <JF> Q+ to comment on Issue #175
14:13:27 <sharon> ack JF
14:13:27 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to comment on Issue #175
14:13:34 <Matthew_Atkinson> sharon: This relates to discussion we had last week?
14:13:46 <JF> <form lang="he">    <label for="foo" dir="rtl">מהי שפת האם שלך</label>    <input type="text" purpopse="langauge" id="foo" dir="rtl"> </form>
14:13:56 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: [Responded via GitHub with code examples last week]
14:14:36 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: The purpose of the attribute is to identify the purpose of the control; not the language on the screen.
14:14:39 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:15:32 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:15:40 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: [Responded on-list] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0019.html
14:16:46 <janina> ma: Don't believe i`18n is misunderstanding
14:16:46 <JF> Q+
14:17:04 <janina> ma: Believe they want us to ensure that any value the user inputs will be a valid value
14:17:24 <janina> ma: From our perspective that would be up to the ua
14:17:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> Re: Matthew_Atkinson comment, mozilla writes: ""language" A preferred language, given as a valid BCP 47 language tag."
14:17:49 <sharon> ack JF
14:18:15 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: We shouldn't require the user to know the language code—this is a free text field and whatever the user wants to enter should be accepted.
14:18:18 <JF> http://john.foliot.ca/demos/autofill.php
14:19:22 <becky> q+
14:19:24 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: The language form control on this autocomplete-able form will look up the value the user stored on their machine.
14:19:25 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:19:35 <sharon> ack becky
14:20:04 <Matthew_Atkinson> becky: Can we solve this by saying that we expect the value could be converted into a language code?
14:20:25 <JF> Q+
14:20:32 <janina> q+ that this is a ua whether it's a drop down list or free form input
14:20:47 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:21:00 <janina> q+
14:21:21 <Lionel_Wolberger> Sees Chromium (chrome browser UA) has the BCP codes in this autfill (autocomplete) file, https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/26049f31cc0fcd73bfaa9b0bc4e4493b32951e79/chrome/browser/ui/autofill/autofill_dialog_controller_impl.h
14:21:36 <sharon> q?
14:22:14 <sharon> ack JF
14:22:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> s/sutfill/autofill
14:22:29 <Lionel_Wolberger> s/autfill/autofill
14:23:10 <Matthew_Atkinson> Matthew_Atkinson: Maybe we have to stick to mentioning the code becuase this is what the shared WCAG/W3C definition for this autocomplete purpose prescribes? Then it's up to the UA/app to map to a code. Is this a clear-cut spec consistency issue?
14:23:10 <becky> q+
14:23:24 <sharon> ack janina
14:23:37 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: The purpose is to capture something from the user, it could be anything (including Klingon, e.g.)
14:23:57 <JF> <input type="text" purpose="language" value="klingon">
14:24:14 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: To what end are we asking the browser to collect this data? Is it really going to be a free-form text field. Do we need another vehicle for collecting the data? [cited examples in various OSes in list post]
14:24:18 <JF> Q+
14:24:34 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: If we are collecting something; we need to say _why_.
14:24:51 <JF> we are not collecting *anything* - we're annotating the purpose of the text input
14:25:01 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: Also think that i18n is concerned about consistency and valid designations for the collected language (in which case it's the UA's responsibility).
14:25:02 <sharon> ack becky
14:25:06 <becky> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/form-control-infrastructure.html#attr-fe-autocomplete-language
14:25:07 <sharon> q?
14:25:43 <Matthew_Atkinson> becky: Just checked the WHATWG spec and it should be a valid BPC47 language tag (and has a format of text). Agree with JF, but if the spec is saying it should be a language tag, we need to as well.
14:26:21 <Matthew_Atkinson> becky: As with Matthew_Atkinson's concern, we need to check the WCAG autocomplete definition.
14:26:25 <CharlesL> q+
14:26:29 <JF> <input type="text" purpose="language" value="klingon">
14:26:32 <sharon> ack JF
14:26:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> s/mentioning the code becuase/mentioning the code because
14:27:28 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: We're not collecting anything; the author of the form is collecting the information. Name, email, language, all can be random strings. The form is collecting the info; the form has a language but that is separate from the language being entered by the user.
14:28:10 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: With the autocomplete feature, the form can be pre-filled. Klingon uses an odd character set, but we could write "Klingon" (in English) as the value for the language field.
14:28:26 <becky> q+
14:28:36 <JF> <form lang="he">
14:29:24 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: In this form, the input will be in Hebrew, so the user could write that their languge is Hebrew _in Hebrew_.
14:29:33 <sharon> ack CharlesL
14:30:03 <janina> q+
14:30:12 <Matthew_Atkinson> CharlesL: +1 to JF; seems i18n may be missing the purpose of the form.
14:30:41 <Matthew_Atkinson> CharlesL: Let's have a joint call with i18n to explain what we're trying to do.
14:30:51 <sharon> ack becky
14:31:26 <JF> Q+ to propose filing a bug against WHAT WG spec
14:31:27 <Matthew_Atkinson> becky: I still agree we're only asking for the user's language; but the "purpose" values in the HTML spec says the value of the field with a "purpose" of "language" should be a valid BCP47 code.
14:31:33 <sharon> q?
14:32:02 <Matthew_Atkinson> becky: Maybe the browsers are doing it wrong, but this is out of the scope of our spec.
14:33:01 <sharon> ack janina
14:33:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> +1 Charles, John: this label, 'language', is meant to be handled by the User Agent, if the user stored a 'language' as a default. We see that Mozilla is storing it as BPC47. But Chromium or Edge may store it differently.
14:33:43 <sharon> ack JF
14:33:43 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to propose filing a bug against WHAT WG spec
14:33:47 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: +1 to Becky. We don't need to be too concerned about this; it will come up rarely. To make the value useful, we would make sure it wasn't free-form. Don't need to have a call with i18n.
14:33:51 <sharon> q?
14:34:16 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: Bug in HTML spec—we should not expect users to know what their language code is.
14:34:47 <CharlesL> q+
14:34:49 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: Could have a list where the languages are presented in user-friendly format, written in the respective languages, and the app will map to the BCP47 code.
14:34:58 <sharon> q?
14:35:15 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: If all of the form is written in Chinese, then all the language values would be written in Chinese so that the Chinese user could read them.
14:35:47 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: This means the only way to collect this info is as a <select> but what about free text? And languages that don't have a valid code.
14:35:53 <sharon> ack CharlesL
14:36:20 <JF> @Charles, correct, but we cannot limit authors on HOW they collect the user's preferred language
14:36:47 <Matthew_Atkinson> CharlesL: <select> is a valid option; so is free-form. We're talking about one level up from the control being used; we're just talking about the purpose of the field. One level up from the mechanics of how we gather the info.
14:36:59 <JF> +1. @purpose is machine-readable code that furnishes a "hint"
14:37:31 <sharon> q?
14:37:57 <Matthew_Atkinson> becky: So we can add a reminder that it _should_ be a BCP47 code, (en, en_GB, en_US, en_CA, ...) but we can leave it at that.
14:38:33 <JF> Q+
14:38:43 <Matthew_Atkinson> becky: ACK that this is here to help the user by pre-filling.
14:38:57 <sharon> ack JF
14:39:41 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: These attributes will allow things to be presented in different modalities (icon instead of text, e.g. an envelope icon instead of "email address").
14:39:53 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: so it comes even before pre-filling the form; it's a hint to the UA.
14:40:53 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: Validator doesn't raise an error when a free text field is marked up as haivng a purpose of "language"
14:42:11 <JF> Q+
14:42:29 <sharon> ack JF
14:42:29 <Matthew_Atkinson> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#input-purposes - doesn't specify any restrictions regarding fields with a purpose of "language" but the HTML spec does specify it is expected to be a BCP47 code.
14:44:05 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: [will file an issue on HTML]
14:45:43 <JF> Q+
14:46:02 <Matthew_Atkinson> sharon: Next steps? Consensus we're looking for is who's in agreement regarding the BCP47 code? Or can we put a note that any text is valid?
14:46:51 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: adding a note should satisfy i18n; their concern is about consitency across specs, so a note to clarify that when such a thing shows up in a form, the UA is responsible for making sure the value stored conforms to BCP47, however it's represented on-screen.
14:47:14 <JF> https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/175#issuecomment-804062909
14:47:23 <sharon> ack JF
14:47:50 <CharlesL> +1 to waiting for i18n responce
14:47:50 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: Can we wait to see how i18n response to my response first?
14:48:11 <Matthew_Atkinson> +1 to waiting for i18n's response
14:48:17 <sharon> +1
14:48:33 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: agree; could ask a clarifying question as to what their concern is.
14:49:16 <sharon> q?
14:49:53 <Matthew_Atkinson> sharon: Shall we wait one more week?
14:49:54 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: OK to wait one more week; need to ensure we each understand eachother.
14:50:04 <Matthew_Atkinson> zakim, next item
14:50:04 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Text for data-purpose related to our values for calendar, dates, and language, etc. (Janina)
14:50:05 <CharlesL> +1 for waiting a week.
14:50:07 <Zakim> ... https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0019.html -- taken up [from sharon]
14:50:22 <Matthew_Atkinson> Oops; had not moved Zakim forward; apologies!
14:50:22 <Matthew_Atkinson> zakim, next item
14:50:22 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, Matthew_Atkinson
14:50:27 <Matthew_Atkinson> zakim, close this item
14:50:27 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
14:50:28 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:50:28 <Zakim> 4. Issue 79 - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0025.html (John) [from sharon]
14:50:28 <Matthew_Atkinson> zakim, next item
14:50:29 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Issue 79 - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0025.html (John) -- taken up [from sharon]
14:50:57 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: looks good to me
14:51:23 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: our code example has spaces around the "+" sign but because we're doing space-separated values, this could introduce some ambiguity.
14:51:55 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: [details from research are in the linked post]
14:52:27 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: Recommend not having spaces around the "+" symbol.
14:52:28 <Matthew_Atkinson> +1
14:52:31 <sharon> q?
14:52:40 <Matthew_Atkinson> becky: +1 - adding a space makes the parsing harder
14:53:08 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: +1 - consistency with other W3C specs clinches it
14:53:44 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: In HTML and derivatives, e.g. ARIA, this is how it works. (I.e. not commas)
14:54:24 <Matthew_Atkinson> sharon: Looks like everyone's agreeing. Next steps?
14:54:58 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: Make a change to the draft spec.
14:55:00 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: +1
14:55:06 <becky> +1
14:55:17 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: [will make a PR]
14:55:21 <Matthew_Atkinson> CharlesL: +1; will review
14:55:30 <JF> ACTION:: JF to make editorial change to remove spaces on either side of "+" symbol - and create pull request
14:55:42 <Matthew_Atkinson> zakim, next item
14:55:42 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- 2 new values for distractions https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-personalization-tf/2021Mar/0020.html (John) -- taken up [from sharon]
14:56:30 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: This arose from a conversation on an ARIA issue in GitHub. [details in the post linked above]
14:56:37 <Matthew_Atkinson> q+
14:56:53 <becky> q+
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14:57:12 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: Relates to images that convey a mood; may not be directly related. Therefore: two types of decorative image: one that is purely decorative and one that enhances the mood.
14:57:19 <sharon> ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:57:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> Matthew_Atkinson: The issue seems related to how distracting or essential the content is
14:58:01 <JF> Q+
14:58:03 <sharon> ack becky
14:58:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:58:36 <janina> q+
14:58:53 <Matthew_Atkinson> Matthew_Atkinson: wondering if we should consider both approaches (not sure either way)
14:59:07 <sharon> ack JF
14:59:07 <Matthew_Atkinson> becky: Not sure if it is needed, but if it was picked up by ARIA we could use it.
14:59:31 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: Whether it's via @distraction or @simplification, this is adding an additional level of granularity.
14:59:54 <Matthew_Atkinson> JF: There are images that are decorative but can add some value to the page.
15:00:02 <sharon> ack Lionel_Wolberger
15:00:35 <Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: +1 to this being fascinating, and we deal with this a lot, particularly with catalogue sites. ARIA feels like it could be the right place.
15:00:45 <CharlesL> 1+ not in 1.0 :)
15:00:58 <Matthew_Atkinson> janina: Not sure if this is a 1.0 issue; ARIA is screen-reader only; Zoom lets you choose skin tone of thumbs-up/-down.
15:01:08 <Matthew_Atkinson> sharon: We'll continue next week.
15:01:39 <Matthew_Atkinson> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:01:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/22-personalization-minutes.html Matthew_Atkinson
15:03:17 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
15:06:49 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #personalization