IRC log of personalization on 2021-03-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:03:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #personalization
14:03:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/15-personalization-irc
14:03:24 [LisaSeemanKest_]
zakim, please join
14:03:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please join', LisaSeemanKest_
14:03:39 [janina]
Meeting Personalization Task Force
14:03:46 [janina]
Date: 15 Mar 21
14:03:48 [becky]
present+
14:03:50 [janina]
Chair: Lisa
14:04:00 [LisaSeemanKest_]
rrsagent, generate minutes
14:04:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/15-personalization-minutes.html LisaSeemanKest_
14:04:03 [janina]
Meeting: Personalization Task Force
14:04:11 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
14:04:24 [JF]
trackbot, please join
14:04:29 [janina]
present+
14:04:33 [JF]
strackbot, please join/
14:04:36 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:04:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/15-personalization-minutes.html janina
14:04:51 [JF]
s/trackbot, please join/
14:05:19 [becky]
scribe: becky
14:05:25 [LisaSeemanKest_]
scribe: becky
14:05:35 [becky]
zakim, next item
14:05:35 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, becky
14:05:39 [LisaSeemanKest_]
q?
14:05:49 [Roy]
Roy has joined #personalization
14:05:51 [LisaSeemanKest_]
ack j
14:05:55 [becky]
zakim, next item
14:05:55 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Draft response to I18N issue 144 & 145 (John) -- taken up [from sharon]
14:06:29 [janina]
present+
14:06:39 [LisaSeemanKest_]
https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/145
14:07:10 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : 2 issues from i18n
14:07:43 [becky]
jf: have drafted response to 145
14:09:25 [becky]
JF: #145 has concerns about us republishing the data purpose values from WCAG 2.1 and HTML5 spec. That list of terms is hosted and maintained by WHAT-WG. We want to manage the list so that changes don't break our spec.
14:10:09 [becky]
JF: our TF supports the creation of a W3C repository for these types of glossaries and terms, have brought that up to APA
14:10:50 [becky]
JF: drafted a response to I18N that we are pursuing with WAI leaders via APA to host glossaries
14:11:29 [becky]
JF: regarding calendar concerns we need to make a change to specify the format or how to determine it - needs to be discussed withn the group
14:11:42 [janina]
q+
14:11:48 [JF]
https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/form-control-infrastructure.html#attr-fe-autocomplete-language
14:12:08 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : COGA identifies that must specify correct language codes, is that enough?
14:13:12 [LisaSeemanKest_]
q?
14:13:15 [becky]
JF: WHAT-WG spec does reference language code and specifies the value type and specific type; We should update our code to specify to use BCP or ISO language code
14:13:24 [JF]
+1 to janina
14:14:07 [becky]
janina : We need to be precise about what "correct language code" means in our spec. Believe that I18N should be providing guidance on the correct type to use.
14:14:18 [JF]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-1_codes
14:14:27 [becky]
ack, janina
14:14:58 [Matthew_Atkinson]
https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/dom.html#the-lang-and-xml:lang-attributes
14:15:09 [becky]
Janina: this is important for in context lang attributes
14:15:29 [JF]
https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-html-language-declarations
14:15:44 [LisaSeemanKest_]
https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/consistency_checks/content-usable/index.html#more-details-14
14:15:57 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : COGA references ISO and BCP language codes
14:16:39 [JF]
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/bcp/bcp47.txt
14:16:40 [becky]
JF: BCP 47 is from IETF
14:17:02 [becky]
JF: BCP 47 references ISO
14:17:40 [becky]
Janina: we need to make sure whatever we select in w3C includes sign language
14:18:01 [janina]
https://www.evertype.com/standards/iso639/sgn.html
14:18:11 [JF]
"ISO 639-1:2002, Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 1: Alpha-2 code"
14:19:19 [JF]
languageAbility to select the preferred language for the content.
14:19:30 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : I remember adding a note that should use local data codes, we should verify that note exists and update to make more specific with help from I18N
14:20:07 [becky]
JF: we currently don't specify how to declare the value
14:20:11 [LisaSeemanKest_]
Use language tags. Language tags are the key means to achieve the goal of unambiguous text formatting. See HTML [HTML] language tags and BCP 47 Language Codes.
14:20:57 [JF]
<input type="text" name="12345" data-purpose="language"/>
14:21:00 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : Think we need a sentence similar to what is in COGA about language and ask I18N what specifics they want
14:22:16 [becky]
JF: the way we are using language is as an attribute value, the purpose of the input is to ask the user what language they prefer.
14:22:29 [JF]
<label for="foo">What is your prefered language</label> <input type="text" name="12345" id="foo" data-purpose="language"/>
14:22:57 [becky]
JF: I am just collecting their language
14:23:13 [becky]
janina: but many people wouldn't know what to use
14:23:25 [LisaSeemanKest_]
ageda+ editors nots need to be updated and removed
14:23:31 [LisaSeemanKest_]
agenda+ editors nots need to be updated and removed
14:23:57 [becky]
JF: but we are saying the purpose of the input is to collect the user's preferred language
14:24:35 [becky]
JF: I think I18N is thinking about output to the screen for human reading but we are talking about machine readable content
14:25:06 [becky]
JF: this input example is just collecting data - date about the pereerred language
14:25:57 [becky]
Janina: what are we doing we the data?
14:26:32 [JF]
Q+
14:26:36 [Matthew_Atkinson]
q+
14:26:48 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : User agents need to understand how to convert to dates etc. to a format that the user understands
14:27:18 [LisaSeemanKest_]
q?
14:27:34 [LisaSeemanKest_]
ack j
14:27:39 [LisaSeemanKest_]
ack j
14:28:54 [JF]
Q+
14:29:04 [JF]
+1 to Matthew re: validation
14:29:08 [becky]
Matthew_Atkinson : there are 2 separate things going on, we are trying to establish the purpose of this field - there are two steps, identify the purpose and validation that the selection/input is valid. Whose responsibility is to validate?
14:29:17 [JF]
<form lang="de"> <label for="foo">Was ist Ihre bevorzugte Sprache?</label> <input type="text" name="12345" id="foo" data-purpose="language"/> <submit> </form>
14:29:23 [Matthew_Atkinson]
ack Matthew_Atkinson
14:29:36 [LisaSeemanKest_]
ack j
14:29:41 [becky]
JF: John believes is it the User agent/AT responsibility
14:30:50 [becky]
JF: purpose of the input is just to capture the preference, the lang attribute on the page specifies the currently displayed language
14:32:14 [JF]
data-purpose="cc-number"
14:33:11 [becky]
Janina: but need to make certain that we communicate in the correct language
14:34:01 [LisaSeemanKest_]
q?
14:34:11 [becky]
JF: purpose of the attribute is to tell machines what type of information we are capturing, name, address, cc-number, etc. language is just another of those values
14:34:31 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : doesn't think that is the only use case
14:35:03 [JF]
The purpose attribute provides the context of a text input field such as a text box. It is typically used on an input of type text, or element with a corresponding role.
14:35:23 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : AT could also use the cc-number info to display a particular icon, or include a warning that the user is going to disclose the cc-number;
14:36:36 [becky]
JF: yes, I agree, but you could do the same thing with language - display an icon that represents a language collection. This is just about identifying the purpose of the input
14:36:39 [LisaSeemanKest_]
q?
14:37:16 [JF]
Defining context is not an internationalization issue, it is **MACHINE READABLE TEXT**
14:37:57 [JF]
<html lang="fr">
14:38:13 [JF]
Q+
14:38:23 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : looking at date - perhaps display a specific date picker with icons for the various days; as an AT developer I want to know what date format is desired, so would be useful to use the date semantic to help with data binding
14:38:32 [becky]
q+
14:38:38 [janina]
q?
14:39:23 [janina]
ack jf
14:39:42 [becky]
JF: the point of our attribute is machine readable text
14:40:12 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : I just want to add a note that page should also be using lang attribute correctly
14:40:42 [JF]
+1 BEcky
14:41:12 [becky]
ack b
14:42:02 [becky]
becky: agree we are just providing machine readable info to help with selecting the correct user preference and matching to language code of the page
14:42:39 [becky]
JF: I believe I18n is not understanding that the language value in this case is just machine readable
14:43:31 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : suggest drafting a note that language must be specified on the page and asking I18N if that is sufficient
14:44:51 [becky]
JF: this particular attribute is not generally used for output on the screen in most cases, we are just saying what the purpose of the input is - it is to collect the language
14:45:59 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : Do we just want to explain JF's point to I18N or to add a sentence about, Note we recommend author's should be aware that the language standard should be used.
14:46:12 [LisaSeemanKest_]
note ather should be awear that the lang atandard , and should also be used
14:46:36 [becky]
Do people want to add such a note?
14:46:44 [LisaSeemanKest_]
add the sentence ?
14:46:46 [LisaSeemanKest_]
+1
14:46:49 [becky]
-1
14:47:02 [JF]
-1
14:47:02 [janina]
+0
14:47:27 [Matthew_Atkinson]
q+
14:48:44 [JF]
"Please note that 'language' is an attribute VALUE, and not an attribute seeking which language is being used. Our attribute (@purpose) is intended to be machine-readable text. Content authors will also need to ensure that language and bi-directional concerns *related to the form* are addressed, but this attribute is not the vehicle for these concerns"
14:49:08 [JF]
Q+
14:49:09 [LisaSeemanKest_]
we recomend useing a valid bcb 427 code and valid lange tags inside the code
14:49:32 [becky]
Matthew_Atkinson : believe the main issue is addressing the confusion by I18N but not sure this is the right way to do it. Will this go away when we have a defined glossary. If I18n is confused will others be?
14:50:01 [LisaSeemanKest_]
ack m
14:50:04 [LisaSeemanKest_]
ack j
14:50:14 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : I am hearing if we get a correctly drafted sentence, most people are willing to include
14:50:40 [becky]
JF: clarifying the language is an attribute value, it is not an actual value
14:51:28 [LisaSeemanKest_]
Please note that 'language' is an attribute VALUE, and not an attribute seeking which language is being used. Our attribute (@purpose) is intended to be machine-readable text. Content authors will also need to ensure that language and bi-directional concerns *related to the form* are addressed, but
14:51:56 [becky]
JF: see proposed text above
14:52:32 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : I think this should go at the top rather than just for language
14:53:17 [becky]
Janina: it is not just language it is more locale related;
14:53:57 [becky]
LisaSeemanKest_ : asks Janina to wordsmith the proposal from John
14:54:05 [Matthew_Atkinson]
+1 on the clarification about these being values (not attributes), in the way JF mentioned, and +1 to LisaSeemanKest_'s suggestion of making this a generic note closer to the top.
14:54:30 [JF]
Q+ to note that @purpose is applicable to form inputs ONLY
14:55:17 [becky]
Janina: if i18n is confused others may be as well
14:55:35 [becky]
JF: this attribute only applies to form inputs
14:55:56 [becky]
janina: not sure we agree
14:56:07 [becky]
q+
14:56:47 [LisaSeemanKest_]
Q=
14:56:51 [LisaSeemanKest_]
q+
14:57:08 [LisaSeemanKest_]
ack j
14:57:08 [Zakim]
JF, you wanted to note that @purpose is applicable to form inputs ONLY
14:57:09 [becky]
a bit of back and forth about the use of the purpose attribute
14:57:27 [becky]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/15-personalization-minutes.html becky
14:57:32 [LisaSeemanKest_]
-1 to john , i dissagee
14:58:18 [JF]
YES
14:59:00 [JF]
The purpose attribute provides the context of a text input field such as a text box
14:59:14 [LisaSeemanKest_]
action, janina, to write wording on please use standards for dates etc
15:00:12 [LisaSeemanKest_]
action: janina, to write wording on please use standards for dates etc
15:00:18 [becky]
becky: maybe we are not using it for forms, but WCAG specifically says it is for forms. even if we are using it for other purposes, to display an icon, then that piece of data - language preference - needs to be stored
15:00:33 [becky]
still disagreements within group
15:00:46 [becky]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:00:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/15-personalization-minutes.html becky
15:03:07 [sharon]
sharon has left #personalization
15:10:50 [LisaSeemanKest_]
yes