14:36:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
14:36:26 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/12-epub-irc
14:36:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:36:30 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
14:36:37 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2021-03-12: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Mar/0004.html
14:36:38 <ivan> Chair: dauwhe
14:36:38 <ivan> Date: 2021-03-12
14:36:38 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Mar/0004.html
14:36:38 <ivan> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telco
14:36:38 <ivan> Regrets+ BenSchroeter
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14:59:34 <ivan> present+ gregorio
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14:59:43 <ivan> present+ avneesh
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15:00:00 <ivan> present+ tzviya
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15:02:37 <BenSchroeter> scribe+
15:02:59 <ivan> present+ billk
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15:04:24 <ivan> present+ teenya
15:05:08 <BenSchroeter> Dave: let's check in on where we are, what we've done, what we have left to do
15:05:16 <ivan> Topic: WG Status report
15:05:29 <BenSchroeter> ...reached first public working draft on time
15:05:53 <BenSchroeter> ...done some good work on the spec (thanks Matt G!)
15:06:14 <BenSchroeter> progress on internationalization (thanks Ivan!)
15:07:11 <BenSchroeter> ...left to do: testing, horizontal review for a11y, security/privacy, TAG review
15:07:45 <BenSchroeter> ...html serialization, scripting, general open issues
15:08:02 <ivan> present+ hadrien
15:08:05 <dauwhe> q?
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15:08:43 <BenSchroeter> ivan: accessibility work is important, might be on time with European requirements
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15:09:09 <BenSchroeter> dave: thanks Avneesh for driving that!
15:09:56 <BenSchroeter> dave: thoughts on how it's going and what we should focus on next?
15:09:57 <dauwhe> q?
15:10:11 <tzviya> q+
15:10:24 <ivan> q+
15:10:31 <ivan> ack tzviya
15:10:50 <Hadrien> present+
15:11:02 <ivan> present+ garth
15:11:20 <BenSchroeter> Tzviya: heavy lifting done by same few people, would be good to get feedback from a wider group
15:11:26 <avneeshsingh> q+
15:11:30 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:12:11 <gpellegrino> +1 to a11y for FXL
15:12:19 <wendyreid> q+
15:12:59 <circularken> +1 to a11y for FXL
15:13:20 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: 2 technical issues we need to solve: a11y aspect of fixed layout, what would we do with html5 and scripting
15:14:48 <BenSchroeter> ...we need a clearly formulated set of arguments for html5 vs xhtml vis a vis scripting
15:14:50 <dauwhe> ack avn
15:15:46 <George> q+
15:16:14 <BenSchroeter> Avneesh: concerned about community feedback, need more engagement with Publishing Community Group - maybe one call per month to collaborate and get input from the community to show that EPUB3 is connected to publishing community
15:16:36 <BenSchroeter> ...HTML5 vs XHTML - need deadline to make decision
15:16:49 <BenSchroeter> ... end of April?
15:16:59 <dauwhe> ack wen
15:17:34 <CharlesL> q+
15:17:46 <BenSchroeter> Wendy: my bad, I have a draft of a wiki outlining three main approaches for fixed layout a11y, will post today
15:17:48 <ivan> q+
15:17:56 <dauwhe> ack geor
15:19:14 <dauwhe> ack char
15:19:14 <BenSchroeter> George: should we go beyond community groups for feedback? do more than ask for comments on a link to a spec? provide documentation on what's changed? would take a lot of work but might be useful.
15:19:42 <BenSchroeter> Charles: the title of the wiki will be important, can't change later.
15:19:46 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:20:06 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: +1 to George
15:20:48 <BenSchroeter> ...reach out to mailing list from last time's commenters?
15:20:51 <CharlesL> q+
15:21:26 <BenSchroeter> ...if we have a smaller group for scripting/html5, we could have a separate call
15:21:43 <BenSchroeter> ...it's urgent that we make a decision about this in short order
15:21:48 <dauwhe> ack char
15:22:30 <ivan> q+
15:22:48 <BenSchroeter> Charles: html5 scripting: thought we were just trying to get spec close to what it was, surprised that we are taking on this scripting work and not deferring to next iteration
15:23:02 <BenSchroeter> Dave: scripting is in scope per the charter
15:23:22 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:24:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:24:48 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: it's ok that we say we will stay where we are, but W3C review will surface the question and we need a reasonable answer and be ready to articulate
15:24:55 <dauwhe> ack bil
15:25:29 <ivan> q+
15:26:03 <dauwhe> ack iva
15:26:09 <BenSchroeter> BillK: Is there a way to do that without making the current xhtml model invalid? If we use HTML5 model, what are the implications for the other things in the spec, like epub:type - need to enumerate these
15:26:38 <mgarrish> q+
15:26:58 <dauwhe> ack mg
15:27:01 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: html5 is a valid format on the web today. any epub3 using that remains valid.
15:27:58 <ivan> s/html5/xhtml5/
15:28:03 <BenSchroeter> MattG: if epub navigation document doesn't change we can add html. what about testing framework and plan? do we need that to go to CR?
15:28:21 <BenSchroeter> Dave: yes we need testing in place before CR
15:28:26 <dauwhe> q?
15:28:49 <ivan> topic: alternate ways of meeting
15:29:03 <BenSchroeter> Dave: new topic: in our chairs meeting we were talking about how to help people participate in the WG
15:29:20 <BenSchroeter> ...should we have separate meeting for newbies?
15:29:34 <gpellegrino> q+
15:29:43 <BenSchroeter> ... Q&A sessions?
15:30:12 <dauwhe> ack gp
15:30:54 <BenSchroeter> gpellegrino: intro to W3C would be useful; maybe we could record it for newcomers. could cover github, IRC, etc.
15:31:14 <dauwhe> q?
15:31:21 <gpellegrino> I was at the tzviya introduction :)
15:32:15 <BenSchroeter> Tzviya: in the past we did some intro sessions and invited anyone but geared toward newcomers to the group. walked through working mode and overview of githup repo. Introduced the chairs  and key people. opened it up for questions (lots about IRC).
15:32:35 <George> q+
15:32:37 <BenSchroeter> Dave: is the general sense we should do intro sessions?
15:32:39 <dauwhe> ack Ge
15:33:55 <BenSchroeter> George: we talked about a call for wider review of the spec, maybe we could welcome others first and then offer assistance and intro sessions. Perhaps through community group because anyone can join those.
15:34:08 <dauwhe> q?
15:34:23 <ivan> q+
15:34:35 <BenSchroeter> Tzviya: gpellegrino was it helpful when you attended intro session?
15:34:44 <BenSchroeter> gpellegrino: yes it was helpful.
15:34:59 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:35:29 <dauwhe> q+
15:35:34 <dauwhe> q-
15:35:36 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: to reiterate what I said before, having separate topical course on specific issues would be helpful.
15:35:49 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1542
15:36:23 <ivan> Topic: virtual page numbers @issue 1542
15:37:02 <gpellegrino> q+
15:37:16 <dauwhe> ack gp
15:37:20 <Hadrien> q+
15:37:34 <BenSchroeter> Dave: this issue is about virtual page numbers. most reading systems make something up when they are absent. is lack of standardization a problem? location things in kindle are wack.
15:38:30 <BenSchroeter> gpellegrino: investigate how users with print disabilities as well as RS developers use the page list. How can we improve the user experience?
15:38:30 <dauwhe> ack had
15:41:05 <tzviya> q+ to mention page breaks
15:41:35 <BenSchroeter> Hadrien: page list is not very useful for RS developers. It's a string so it's problematic, so building UI off that is problematic. Best we can do is provide a list so you can jump to a page. Everyone invents their own system. Readium shows progress and "locations."
15:42:11 <dauwhe> ack tz
15:42:11 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to mention page breaks
15:42:16 <BenSchroeter> ...everyone has been doing their own thing for years so it will be difficult to try to move everyone to same approach. also shouldn't rely on authoring.
15:42:54 <BenSchroeter> Tzviya: what about pagebreak? publishers are using that and it goes hand in hand with pagelist
15:43:26 <George> q+
15:44:21 <BenSchroeter> Hadrien: you have to render the whole content behind the scenes. anytime you have to examine the content is problematic to do live. there is a complexity cost if you need to calculate.
15:44:23 <dauwhe> ack George
15:45:10 <CharlesL> q+
15:45:11 <duga> q+
15:45:35 <BenSchroeter> George: I did not envision this as something the RS had to do. I envisioned we would determine an algorithm and the pagelist in the nav doc would have the virtual page numbers.
15:46:15 <dauwhe> ack Ch
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15:46:27 <BenSchroeter> ...also heave heard that biobliographic references and citations are more dependabple with page numbers, would like to afford the same with virtual page numbers but have it baked into the content and not rely on algorithms.
15:47:06 <BenSchroeter> Charles: if we could provide publishers with a standalone tool to search for pagebreaks we could proved a pagelist for the nav doc.
15:47:08 <dauwhe> ack duga
15:47:33 <avneeshsingh> q+
15:48:35 <BenSchroeter> Brady: not sure how we would get something like this adopted. RS implement how they like, might be hard to dissuade. Also there would be processing issues.
15:48:41 <ivan> s/heave/have/
15:49:30 <dauwhe> ack av
15:50:08 <BenSchroeter> Avneesh: +1 to Brady. More suitable for best practices, not spec. Looking at spec made me think about non-western languages.
15:51:01 <BenSchroeter> ...we should try to minimize special processing. Imagine if a browser could open our spec. less burden put on RS the better.
15:51:04 <dauwhe> q?
15:51:10 <dkaplan3> avneesh++
15:51:27 <circularken> q+
15:51:33 <dauwhe> ack cir
15:51:44 <BenSchroeter> Dave: print publishers should number paragraphs instead of pages, lol.
15:52:15 <BenSchroeter> Ken: problem is no markers in output from InDesign.
15:53:08 <George> q+
15:53:32 <dauwhe> ack George
15:53:37 <BenSchroeter> Dave: generating a PDF from marked up content and trying to port pagebreaks back to markup file is tricky.
15:53:50 <ivan> q+
15:55:18 <dauwhe> q?
15:55:35 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:55:42 <BenSchroeter> George: Word to EPUB tool does pretty well with page numbers. Want to incorporate data visualization for pagelist in the checker that flags inconsistencies or problems. Re: internationalization, not sure how that would work. Trying to bridge print to web publishing; this is one of those areas that help us bridge between analog and digital.
15:56:48 <BenSchroeter> Ivan: do we need a resolution that says the page numbering doesn't need to be addressed in the spec, but rather somewhere else? Is this the direction we are headed?
15:57:19 <dauwhe> q?
15:57:31 <ivan> Topic: timezone changes
15:57:44 <BenSchroeter> Dave: This is a multifaceted issue that affects authoring and reading systems and tools. Not quite comfortable with a resolution at this time.
15:58:04 <BenSchroeter> Don't forget the US springs forward this weekend.
16:00:56 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
16:00:56 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been LauraB__, dkaplan, MasakazuKitahara, ivan, George, gregorio, gpellegrino, avneesh, toshiakikoike, tzviya, circularken, brady, BenSchroeter,
16:00:59 <Zakim> ... avneeshsingh, wendyreid, duga, billk, mgarrish, Bill_Kasdorf, Teenya, hadrien, CharlesL, garth
16:00:59 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:00:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/12-epub-minutes.html Zakim
16:01:01 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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16:02:43 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:02:43 <RRSAgent> I see no action items