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16:43:53 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make log public
16:44:08 <sajkaj> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
16:44:19 <sajkaj> Date: 11 Mar 2021
16:44:31 <sajkaj> Chair: sajkaj
16:44:42 <sajkaj> Regrets: Wilco
16:45:08 <sajkaj> agenda?
16:45:12 <sajkaj> Agenda+             Agenda Review & Administrative Items; Seasonal Time Shift
16:45:15 <sajkaj> agenda+             Review and Plan for March Deliverable -- Report on Use Cases
16:45:18 <sajkaj> agenda+             Assigned github issues
16:45:21 <sajkaj> agenda+             Use Cases Discussion (Continued)
16:45:23 <sajkaj> agenda+             Other Business
16:45:26 <sajkaj> agenda+             Be Done
16:45:39 <sajkaj>  rrsagent, make minutes
16:45:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/11-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
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17:00:00 <ToddLibby> present+
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17:05:16 <JF> Present+
17:05:19 <sarahhorton> present+
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17:06:32 <John_Northup> present+
17:06:33 <sarahhorton> zakim, take up item 1
17:06:33 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items; Seasonal Time Shift -- taken up [from sajkaj]
17:06:41 <sajkaj> resent+
17:06:42 <sarahhorton> scribe: sarahhorton
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17:06:53 <PeterKorn> present+
17:06:54 <ToddLibby> present+
17:06:55 <JF> zakim, who is here?
17:06:55 <Zakim> Present: ToddLibby, Azlan, JF, sarahhorton, John_Northup, PeterKorn
17:06:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see jeanne, John_Northup, JF, sarahhorton, PeterKorn, ToddLibby, Azlan, RRSAgent, Zakim, sajkaj, MichaelC, Rachael, trackbot
17:07:01 <jeanne> present+
17:07:38 <sajkaj> present+
17:08:29 <sarahhorton> Janina: Promised Silver deliverables, two calls left this month, look at what we promised to deliver
17:08:53 <sarahhorton> ...what use cases are already covered in the FPWD
17:09:26 <sarahhorton> ...reminder, North America on daylight time early Sunday, Europe end of month, two weeks call will be 1 hour earlier
17:09:46 <sarahhorton> ...advise if problem
17:09:59 <sarahhorton> zakim, take up item 2
17:09:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Review and Plan for March Deliverable -- Report on Use Cases -- taken up [from sajkaj]
17:10:14 <JF> agenda?
17:10:51 <sarahhorton> Janina: Wiki and Google doc say, agree on principles and use cases and report out in March on what use cases are covered
17:10:57 <PeterKorn> q+
17:11:23 <sarahhorton> ...only one, Whoville, might be covered by scoping
17:12:04 <sarahhorton> ...others? Think about and be prepared to report out next week
17:12:08 <John_Northup> q+
17:12:46 <sarahhorton> Peter: Does text of FPWD, does the design and structure of the FPWD have means to address use case
17:13:29 <sarahhorton> ...e.g., discussion of alternative text, would not bring score down to bring out of Bronze
17:13:46 <sarahhorton> ...don't know Guidelines that aren't yet written
17:14:06 <sarahhorton> ...if Guideline is written in certain way, would not go out of Bronze
17:15:01 <sarahhorton> ...e.g., fixed-width viewport that doesn't quite scale without clipping, might report out that this use case could be handled in existing structure if guideline on font increase is scored to address it
17:15:14 <PeterKorn> q-
17:15:40 <PeterKorn> q+
17:15:41 <sarahhorton> John: How define when use case is covered?
17:15:53 <sarahhorton> ack Jo
17:16:00 <sarahhorton> ack Pe
17:16:13 <jeanne> q+ to say I appreciate the nuanced evaluation
17:16:23 <sarahhorton> Peter: How we feel it's covered, how we feel it could be easily covered
17:17:11 <sarahhorton> ...e.g., use case covered because alternative text is scored as non-critical missing alternative text
17:17:45 <sarahhorton> ...or straightforwardly coverable, will be covered if Guideline is written to cover it
17:18:05 <sarahhorton> ack je
17:18:05 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say I appreciate the nuanced evaluation
17:18:06 <PeterKorn> q?
17:18:29 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Appreciate nuanced evaluation esp with subtle aspects of model
17:18:55 <sarahhorton> ...also good to have feedback from different perspectives
17:19:11 <sarahhorton> ...use cases are awesome, good to test what we're doing
17:19:24 <sarahhorton> ...could also bring in use cases, our opinion, what do you think?
17:19:50 <sarahhorton> Janina: Would cover hidden iframe that triggers failure but checker finds it
17:20:15 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Will add to to-do list
17:20:40 <PeterKorn> q+
17:20:42 <sarahhorton> JohnF: Ongoing concern that scoring is not scalable
17:21:13 <sarahhorton> Janina: First report is to give overview, suggestion to be generous about where we think FPWD covers things
17:21:26 <sarahhorton> ...in May will report on what is still missing
17:22:03 <PeterKorn> q?
17:22:03 <sarahhorton> JohnF: Goal to focus on positive, okay, want to make sure response is tempered
17:22:08 <sarahhorton> ack pe
17:22:27 <sarahhorton> Peter: Any use case you can write to address scoring would be welcome
17:22:54 <sarahhorton> Janina: New use cases, hoping to get to them today
17:23:22 <sarahhorton> ...link to GitHub issues in wiki
17:23:38 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Adding to Google doc
17:24:09 <PeterKorn> ?
17:24:12 <PeterKorn> q?
17:24:30 <sarahhorton> zakim, take up item 3
17:24:30 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Assigned github issues -- taken up [from sajkaj]
17:25:24 <sarahhorton> Janina: Review of status of issues
17:25:37 <PeterKorn> q+
17:26:25 <sarahhorton> ...accessibility bugs issue, asked for additional guidance, no additional comment on #281
17:26:46 <PeterKorn> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/281
17:27:08 <jeanne> Issues -> https://github.com/w3c/silver/labels/Subgroup%3A%20Conformance%20Options
17:27:28 <PeterKorn> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/219
17:27:42 <PeterKorn> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/277
17:27:49 <sarahhorton> ack pe
17:28:20 <sarahhorton> Peter: For each issue, if fit in principle, add link to principle to note also addressing Github issue
17:28:57 <sarahhorton> ...adds links to Google doc
17:29:33 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Would be good to include use case for disproportionate burden
17:30:03 <sarahhorton> q+
17:31:41 <PeterKorn> Sarah:In the case of disproportionate burden (GitHubt issue Scoring #281), believes this is about "undue burden" from the perspective of the author, NOT the website visitor
17:32:45 <PeterKorn> q+
17:32:51 <PeterKorn> ack sarah
17:33:16 <sarahhorton> Peter: Asking for something close but different
17:34:01 <sarahhorton> ...if the working group can define thresholds, use those it its analysis
17:35:04 <sarahhorton> ...imagine agency saying, we will decide based on guidance from WCAG
17:35:22 <PeterKorn> q?
17:35:25 <PeterKorn> ack P
17:35:44 <sarahhorton> JohnF: Understands use case, concern will introduce fracturing, alternative example
17:36:32 <sarahhorton> ...CA based on WCAG, if allow different thresholds, what does tech company do
17:36:47 <sarahhorton> ...anything that encourages would be counter-productive
17:37:03 <PeterKorn> q+
17:37:06 <sarahhorton> ...shifting burden on agencies, where do they sit on exceptions
17:37:11 <sarahhorton> ask pe
17:37:19 <sarahhorton> ack pe
17:37:26 <sarahhorton> s/ask pe/
17:37:53 <sarahhorton> Peter: Request for something we are doing, which is have levels of goodness that sites can use to drive what they do
17:38:47 <sarahhorton> ...bronze for little guy, silver for the big guy, they are asking for levels
17:39:02 <sarahhorton> JohnF: Didn't read that way, but can see it
17:39:19 <sarahhorton> Janina: Asked for more information about how it's important
17:40:04 <sarahhorton> Peter: Assigned some to principles, not sure where to assign others
17:40:58 <sarahhorton> ...flexibility in conformance and scoring less obvious
17:41:13 <sarahhorton> Janina: Read comments before next meeting, come back to them
17:41:16 <PeterKorn> To come back next meeting to look at https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/362 and https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/281
17:41:42 <sarahhorton> zakim, take up next item
17:41:42 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items; Seasonal Time Shift -- taken up [from sajkaj]
17:41:51 <sarahhorton> zakim, take up item 4
17:41:51 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Use Cases Discussion (Continued) -- taken up [from sajkaj]
17:42:34 <PeterKorn> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GyUYTnZp0HIMdsKqCiISCSCvL0su692dnW34P81kbbw/edit#
17:43:26 <sarahhorton> Janina: Educational use case, plain language, let's talk about that one
17:43:50 <sarahhorton> JohnN: Reads use case
17:44:50 <sarahhorton> Janina: similar to journal, jargon in language
17:45:01 <sarahhorton> ...not plain language
17:46:05 <sarahhorton> Peter: Two related but different things, site wants to use 3rd-party tool (LMS) to do things it doesn't support, also how to help content contributors do something without skills and knowledge
17:46:25 <PeterKorn> q?
17:46:25 <sarahhorton> JohnN: Yes, some things they can control with learning, some things they can't control
17:47:11 <sarahhorton> JohnF: Instances when producers are using framework, affordances in tool for accessible product, but user/purchaser doesn't use those affordances
17:47:30 <sarahhorton> ...e.g., prompt for alternative text in Wordpress
17:48:06 <sarahhorton> ...concerned we are not recognizing middle pieces
17:48:47 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Where is it not possible with what we have proposed, can't see exclusion
17:49:23 <sarahhorton> JohnF: All discussions are for final website, how does WordPress ensure plain language?
17:49:59 <sarahhorton> ...publishing platform, not applicable?
17:50:27 <sarahhorton> Janina: Need to factor use of accessibility-supporting platforms?
17:51:01 <sarahhorton> JohnF: Platforms can make NA claims, then are we comparing apples to apples, don't know
17:51:33 <sarahhorton> Janina: Comment from Mike Gower, need to think more holistically, encourage people for making good choices in tech adopted
17:52:11 <PeterKorn> q+
17:52:28 <sarahhorton> JohnF: Scoring based on subtraction, start perfect and lose points, other way around, here's the max number of points, here's where you are
17:52:36 <sarahhorton> ask pet
17:52:42 <sarahhorton> ack pet
17:52:49 <sarahhorton> s/ask pet/
17:53:04 <sarahhorton> Peter: Is something not covered in use case or something added into use case
17:53:43 <sarahhorton> Janina: One school chooses accessibility supported, another one chooses tool that doesn't address accessibility
17:54:18 <Azlan> q+
17:54:27 <sarahhorton> JohnF: New or existing use case, not clear, issue of platforms, need to be able to report level of conformance based on what they can and cannot do
17:54:55 <sarahhorton> ...at some level have to break things into unit tests
17:55:52 <sarahhorton> ...category of product, things can achieve or break accessibility
17:55:56 <jeanne> q+
17:56:05 <sarahhorton> ...additional of editorial content changes things
17:56:37 <sarahhorton> Janina: What tool can provide is what we can test for in automated testing, could define more cleanly, this is what you must have
17:57:05 <sarahhorton> ...threshold, insufficient to get to bronze but you need to address it to get to bronze
17:58:15 <sarahhorton> Azlan: With WordPress example, as site owner set up WP, use it out of box, default theme, run tests on output, baseline
17:58:36 <sarahhorton> ...anything beyond is on website owner, manager
17:59:36 <sarahhorton> Jeanne: Scoring is not subtractive, each org declares what is NA, also have authoring tool guidelines as methods
18:00:13 <sarahhorton> ...WP example in alternative text, would need to meet method, have addressed some, more to do
18:00:24 <sarahhorton> Janina: Pick up discussion from there
18:01:09 <sarahhorton> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/11-silver-conf-minutes.html sarahhorton
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