16:43:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webdriver
16:43:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/10-webdriver-irc
16:43:53 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: silence
16:48:25 <AutomatedTester> Meeting:  Webdriver March 2021 Meeting
16:50:59 <AutomatedTester> Chair: David Burns
16:51:13 <AutomatedTester> agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-03-BiDi
16:51:30 <AutomatedTester> Scribe: David Burns
16:51:41 <AutomatedTester> ScribeNick: AutomatedTester
16:52:17 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: set logs public-visible
16:52:31 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: create minutes
16:52:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/10-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
16:53:40 <brwalder> brwalder has joined #webdriver
16:54:44 <AutomatedTester> present+
16:55:00 <jdescottes> jdescottes has joined #webdriver
16:59:44 <jgraham> present+
16:59:57 <jgraham> RRSAgent: Make minutes v2
16:59:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/10-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:00:43 <shengfa> shengfa has joined #webdriver
17:02:24 <sadym> present+
17:02:28 <shengfa> present+
17:02:31 <brwalder> present+
17:02:34 <jdescottes> present+
17:02:53 <diemol> diemol has joined #webdriver
17:03:28 <jimevans> jimevans has joined #webdriver
17:03:34 <foolip> present+
17:03:40 <jimevans> present+
17:03:46 <brrian> present+
17:03:49 <diemol> present+
17:04:01 <jgraham> RRSAgent: Make minutes v2
17:04:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/10-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:04:23 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-03-BiDi
17:05:15 <jgraham> q?
17:06:28 <AutomatedTester> Topic: Spec Naming
17:06:34 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/92
17:07:43 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: The context is that the use of bidi can confuse people from the i18n as they use the term bidi.
17:08:35 <AutomatedTester> ... I have an opinion as mentioned in the PR. It's unfortunate that there is overlap but in reality I don't think it's going to block things moving forward
17:08:54 <foolip> q+
17:09:10 <AutomatedTester> ... we could change this to duplex and hope there arent other terms it conflates
17:09:17 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:09:22 <brwalder> q+
17:10:01 <AutomatedTester> foolip: I agree with jgraham here that I don't think expanding will give us much benefit
17:10:04 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:10:09 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
17:10:32 <jgraham> q+
17:10:42 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: I agree with jgraham and foolip here as it would break continiuty moving forward
17:10:45 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:11:07 <brrian> present-
17:11:17 <bj> present+
17:11:38 <bj> I am also skeptical that changing BiDi to bidirectional is worth the trouble.
17:11:43 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: in half the spec we use shorthand for bidi and for the other half we use it properly so we cvould have it corrected in a more formal way
17:12:14 <jgraham> s/we use shorthand for bidi/we just use WebDriver-BiDi/
17:12:50 <jgraham> s/for the other half we use it properly/for the other half we use the WebDriver-BiDi Protocol/
17:13:25 <jgraham> s/so we cvould have it corrected in a more formal way/we could resolve to always use Protocol in formal contexts/
17:13:27 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: it's not like we're conflating it to the extreme like `window` so I don't think we need to do much other than just make it used correrctly elsewherre. It is unfortunate but there is a context here that will always be used so people can be aware.
17:13:45 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:13:55 <AutomatedTester> github: end topic
17:14:05 <AutomatedTester> github-bot: end topic
17:14:32 <AutomatedTester> topic: Navgation progress
17:14:43 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/43
17:14:57 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: there a comment in https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/43#issuecomment-795507208
17:15:22 <AutomatedTester> ... and I am working on the assumption that we have a way to navigate
17:15:48 <AutomatedTester> ... and that we want a way for people to "wait" on certain events or DOM Ready
17:16:13 <AutomatedTester> ... there mig
17:16:30 <AutomatedTester> ... there might be work on fixing the html spec
17:16:54 <AutomatedTester> ... and this for navigations that happen in the client or events that hapepn on the web like links
17:17:22 <AutomatedTester> ... fragments are a special case as they are synchronous
17:18:01 <AutomatedTester> ... and comparing with CDP, that only shares the lifecycle events
17:18:19 <AutomatedTester> ... and we don't need the whole raft of events
17:18:57 <AutomatedTester> ... we are likely to know some of the end points of the navigation, like a download, would need to be shared
17:19:46 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:19:56 <foolip> q+
17:20:05 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:21:07 <AutomatedTester> foolip: there are 2 things like network idle and network almost idle don't appear to be in any spec so we could have that as out of scope
17:21:23 <bj> I strongly prefer to mirror navigation timing and other existing specs.
17:21:44 <brwalder> q+
17:22:05 <AutomatedTester> ... we can have this mirror real world specs
17:22:30 <AutomatedTester> ... and I think that whimboo said that he exspects people to ask for this striaght away
17:22:46 <AutomatedTester> ... and I agree with bj on this that we should follow other specs
17:23:00 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
17:23:18 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: for clients that want to use network idle as the stopping point
17:23:33 <AutomatedTester> ... we would need to intro the concept of a netwrok requests
17:23:41 <AutomatedTester> ... which we currently dont have
17:24:10 <foolip> Per https://github.com/puppeteer/puppeteer/blob/main/docs/api.md#pagegotourl-options it looks like "load" is the default of Puppeteer, which is a relief :)
17:24:20 <AutomatedTester> ... any work on network requests would need to be done before we move onto network idle and leave it out of scope for now
17:24:26 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:24:44 <jgraham> It looks like "networkidle2" is a possible value for waitUntil in puppeteer, so not the default but exposed
17:25:07 <cb> present+
17:25:20 <AutomatedTester> github-bot: end topic
17:25:40 <AutomatedTester> topic: Using navigable terminology
17:25:44 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/91
17:26:33 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: in the spec we have the browsing context module
17:27:17 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes how this changes in the site isolation case]
17:27:43 <AutomatedTester> ... Jake Archibald is improving the html spec around navigable terminology
17:28:04 <AutomatedTester> ... so what changes do we want to make?
17:28:30 <AutomatedTester> ... we have the browser context id and in webdriver http we use it for navigation
17:29:05 <AutomatedTester> ... should we change the concept of browsing context module to a navigable object?
17:29:25 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:29:27 <foolip> q+
17:29:39 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:30:01 <AutomatedTester> foolip: I just had a quick look at Jakes PR
17:30:20 <AutomatedTester> ... could you summarize what this means for us?
17:30:48 <AutomatedTester> ... or we can change the name or...
17:31:24 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I don't know how this works for iframes but I think the relationship is that a browsing context lives within a navigable
17:31:35 <AutomatedTester> ... I think this is how it works
17:31:57 <AutomatedTester> ... a navigable will own a series of browsing contexts as you traverse history
17:32:28 <AutomatedTester> foolip: and this clarifies that a navigable is not similar to browsing context
17:32:38 <AutomatedTester> ... and we need to adapt to be more like html
17:33:08 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: and perhaps my bias is kicking in and I need to double check everything
17:33:30 <AutomatedTester> ... I think we can just replace browsing context here with navigable for how we want to use it
17:34:28 <AutomatedTester> ... one use case we need to think about is if I return a window handle via executescript should it return a navigable or the window id? how would that work
17:34:30 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:35:05 <AutomatedTester> ... I don't think we need to decide now but we need to sort this soon as it will be a backwards breaking change
17:35:16 <AutomatedTester> ... so if we can try have an opinion soon
17:36:11 <AutomatedTester> github-bot: end topic
17:36:38 <AutomatedTester> topic: Ownership of serialised objects
17:36:47 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/90
17:38:01 <AutomatedTester> sadym: in the serialization there is an open question about what do we do when we return an object. in CDP we release objects after a define time
17:38:34 <AutomatedTester> ... there is one solution as suggested by jgraham that we keep track of everything until a page navigation is complete
17:39:01 <AutomatedTester> ... or have a way for the client to say that the scope is now complete and release all the objects no longer needed
17:39:11 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:39:15 <jgraham> q+
17:39:19 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:39:29 <brwalder> q+
17:39:35 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think that is clear thatr we need something like this
17:40:19 <AutomatedTester> ... the use case is "return an array containing data that cant be fully serialsed as its too deeply nested" and then it get's GCed and you can't get it
17:40:49 <AutomatedTester> ... and I think that we will need to al.low the users to explicitly clean this up especially for single page apps
17:41:34 <AutomatedTester> ... we don't want to have a situation where webdriver just creates leaks as it's constantly holding onto life time references
17:42:02 <AutomatedTester> ... and it might be good to know what references do we want to hold onto
17:42:30 <AutomatedTester> ... do we just need 1 root object or smaller references of what we have accvessed
17:43:02 <AutomatedTester> sadym: my opinion if we expose something to a user we should give them something to allow gc
17:43:44 <foolip> q?
17:43:50 <AutomatedTester> ... if we try save memory by picking something that does by value and some by reference it wont be an economic solution
17:43:54 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
17:44:38 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: on the subject of holding strong refernce on the root object and not on the nested object
17:44:59 <AutomatedTester> ... the main difference between cdp and bidi is that we return a large tree
17:45:10 <AutomatedTester> ... so we can just hold the root object
17:45:43 <AutomatedTester> ... while in cdp you have to go through the nested object and then assigning a key
17:45:54 <AutomatedTester> ... so we can just keep what we have and it should be fine
17:46:24 <jgraham> q+
17:46:39 <AutomatedTester> sadym: that is a good point but there may be a situation where we can't fully serilize and allow users to get the rest
17:47:01 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: I am not sure how that works in cdp
17:47:30 <AutomatedTester> ... but in bidi if we keep the strong reference to the object then it woudlnt be gc'ed
17:47:56 <AutomatedTester> ... and if we can't fully serialise it in the first tree that the client would be able to get it in a 2nd call
17:48:33 <AutomatedTester> ... and we would need to document that in a specific way
17:48:35 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:48:40 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:49:10 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: the disadvantage with a nested object and hold a reference to the root object
17:49:36 <AutomatedTester> ... and then it something else comes along and updates it then there will be data missing
17:49:48 <foolip> q+
17:49:53 <brwalder> q+
17:50:18 <AutomatedTester> ... if we create it at a nested model it will be hard for clients to work
17:50:28 <simonstewart> simonstewart has joined #webdriver
17:50:41 <AutomatedTester> ... and holding onto the root will be a good first step and easier to implement
17:50:44 <simonstewart> present+
17:51:10 <AutomatedTester> sadym: what about a command to explicitly release ?
17:51:29 <bj> q+
17:51:37 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: that makes sense and we need to make sure that they are tied to the lifetime of the window object
17:51:57 <AutomatedTester> ... the session would have weakref to a realm to a map to a strong reference
17:52:05 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:52:09 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:52:51 <AutomatedTester> foolip: it would be nice if we return an id if we keep a reference and if we dont then ther eis no id
17:53:08 <AutomatedTester> ... and cdp does have the concept of object groups
17:53:30 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:53:43 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
17:53:57 <foolip> CDP releaseObjectGroup is https://chromedevtools.github.io/devtools-protocol/tot/Runtime/#method-releaseObjectGroup
17:54:19 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: I just wanted to addess jgraham 's comment on just holding a strong reference and something modifies it
17:55:02 <AutomatedTester> ... I am not convinced it a flaw in the spec and it's a general flaw in JS since that is by ref and not by val
17:55:16 <AutomatedTester> ... so it's not really on us to solve this
17:55:29 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:55:35 <AutomatedTester> ack bj
17:55:47 <jgraham> So a case where this could be a problem is where you e.g. log a js value and later expand it and see the value after it was modified not the value at the time it was logged
17:56:14 <AutomatedTester> bj: object groups in cdp and webinspector are done by injected scripts to a page so they disappear when the page navigates
17:56:23 <brwalder> q+
17:56:50 <AutomatedTester> ... so I don't think there much value in adding a system to explicitly clear
17:57:00 <AutomatedTester> ... and we've had it working as normal
17:57:09 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:57:28 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: I think bj 's concern is valid
17:58:37 <bj> btw, objectGroup is a parameter to the main evaluateJavaScript command in WebKit's protocol. Which is how console code is able to do anything sensible with it. Other objects are not in a specific object group.
17:58:40 <AutomatedTester> ... if we introduce something like this to bidi we are going to hope users know what to do to do gc
17:59:18 <AutomatedTester> ... and since we can return a tree we don't need the idea of object groups because the tree is the object group
18:00:46 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
18:00:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/10-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
18:01:07 <AutomatedTester> github-bot: end topic
18:01:30 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
18:01:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/10-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
18:01:52 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: bye
18:01:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items