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14:10:20 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/09-silver-irc
14:10:22 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:10:22 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
14:10:31 <jeanne> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
14:10:32 <jeanne> present:
14:10:32 <jeanne> chair: Shawn, jeanne
14:10:32 <jeanne> present+
14:10:33 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
14:10:33 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:10:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/09-silver-minutes.html jeanne
14:10:33 <jeanne> q?
14:10:33 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:10:57 <jeanne> ack Faz
14:24:43 <jeanne> agenda+ Daylight Savings time reminder
14:24:43 <jeanne> agenda+ Reminder of APA presentation invite
14:24:43 <jeanne> agenda+ Weekly Issue report
14:24:43 <jeanne> agenda+ Planning update
14:24:44 <jeanne> agenda+ Subgroup updates
14:24:44 <jeanne> agenda+ Feedback for the Errors subgroup
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14:28:02 <MichaelC> present+
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14:29:32 <Lauriat> agenda?
14:29:39 <Lauriat> Present+
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14:30:16 <jennifer_strickland> present+
14:30:32 <sajkaj> scribe: sajkaj
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14:31:38 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:31:38 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Daylight Savings time reminder -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:31:42 <Azlan> present+
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14:32:06 <Jemma> present+
14:32:07 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
14:32:16 <sajkaj> jeanne: Daylight time starts Sunday in much of North America. Be sure to check the link to get the time right in your locale.
14:32:22 <Francis_Storr> present+
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14:32:58 <ToddLibby> present+
14:33:08 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:33:08 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Reminder of APA presentation invite -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:33:19 <sajkaj> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-silver/2021Mar/0016.html
14:33:39 <jeanne> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-silver/2021Mar/0016.html
14:33:40 <joconnor> present+
14:33:54 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
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14:34:49 <jeanne> Janina:  Media queries may be a good way to approach ??.  The CSS group said the timing is good  and they would work on it.
14:35:24 <jeanne> ... there will be show and tell of media queries to address  personalization accessibility issues
14:35:37 <JF> JF has joined #silver
14:35:42 <JF> present+
14:35:49 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:35:49 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Weekly Issue report -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:35:50 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
14:36:15 <sajkaj> jeanne: Thanks all around to everyone who helped!
14:36:22 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Issue_Processing_Report
14:36:49 <Lauriat> Jemma: "The call is Wednesday 10, March at 12:00 EST 1700 UTC." (from the email linked to a little further up)
14:36:53 <sajkaj> jeanne: Now 189 github, and 24 email issues
14:37:12 <sajkaj> jeanne: Triage may split some of them into multiple github issues
14:37:17 <sajkaj> q+
14:37:31 <sajkaj> jeanne: This is progress from last week!
14:37:55 <johnkirkwood> johnkirkwood has joined #Silver
14:37:59 <sajkaj> jeanne: Next major task is moving comments received by email into github issues.
14:38:29 <Lauriat> ack sajkaj
14:40:35 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:40:35 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Planning update -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:41:07 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Leadership_Team#9_March_2021
14:41:08 <sajkaj> jeanne: It's been awhile and we should catch up!
14:41:56 <sajkaj> jeanne: Notes we checked attendance this week, vis a vis CSUN, AxCon
14:43:11 <sajkaj> jeanne: Notes the data loss that killed hyperlinks for Silver Research and for the Challenges docs
14:43:26 <sajkaj> sajkaj: Please, if you have pointers, we want them desparately!
14:43:57 <sajkaj> jeanne: Notes how to include inclusive design at some medal (Silver?) in WCAG 3 ...
14:44:18 <sajkaj> jeanne: we will come back to this issue following the conferences
14:44:37 <Fazio> interesting
14:44:40 <sajkaj> jeanne: Also discussion of guidelines for children with disabilities
14:44:58 <sajkaj> jeanne: Would like to do some outreach on that
14:45:25 <sajkaj> jeanne: Notes we've also discussed FPWD comment disposition process
14:45:44 <jennifer_strickland> I'm one of the folks who volunteered to help, Jeanne!
14:45:54 <sajkaj> jeanne: Anything else to note?
14:46:48 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:46:48 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Subgroup updates -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:47:06 <Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Main_Page#Sub_Groups
14:47:15 <sajkaj> MichaelC: Functional Needs meeting again
14:47:37 <sajkaj> MichaelC: Email on list with directions; weekly meetings are resuming
14:47:56 <joconnor> https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/FAST_restructure_2021
14:48:05 <sajkaj> MichaelC:  Working on DB to store these
14:49:15 <Makoto> q+ to share alt text subgroup's update.
14:49:29 <sajkaj> Francis_Storr: Components Architecture Testing -- would like to get going
14:49:51 <sajkaj> Francis_Storr: Potentially useful
14:49:52 <sajkaj> q+
14:50:22 <ToddLibby> @Francis I am interested as well
14:50:44 <jennifer_strickland> @Francis I am, too.
14:50:52 <Fazio> very impassioned pitch. Bravo Francis
14:51:26 <jeanne> ack mak
14:51:27 <Zakim> Makoto, you wanted to share alt text subgroup's update.
14:51:42 <sajkaj> Makoto: No update this week--sorry.
14:51:51 <sajkaj> Makoto: Working on translations of Japanese comments
14:52:11 <Makoto> Japanese comments on FPWD: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kX6DnXftI9VSrK9wgTTOqlkFp9KE4OCGxQqgDiAUcTc/edit?usp=sharing
14:52:21 <sajkaj> Makoto: Am starting with auto translations and then reviewing by hand
14:53:06 <Lauriat> Thank you so much, Makoto!
14:53:20 <Fazio> great work, my friend. Take your time don't stress
14:53:54 <Francis_Storr> Link to "Evaluating The WCAG3 Proposal" Google Docs slide deck: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1qoXwyq3Q2uezlAHI0Jn9XL_DD9zDlnF0zegSPdm3hSg/edit#slide=id.p
14:54:29 <jeanne> Thank you Makoto.  It is very helpful to have international input on WCAG3.  I appreciate how tedious translation work can be and am grateful you are willing.
14:55:05 <jeanne> Jnaina:  We have a lot of good information, we have been processing comments and still trying to move the use case work forward.
14:55:41 <jennifer_strickland> Q+
14:56:02 <jeanne> q?
14:56:10 <jeanne> ack saj
14:56:17 <jeanne> ack jenn
14:56:51 <sajkaj> jennifer_strickland: Questions arose in outside groups re clear language vs plain language
14:57:12 <sajkaj> jeanne: Very similar but challenging to identify good international sources for plain language work
14:57:29 <sajkaj> jeanne: At the moment plain language is very U.S. Federal specific
14:57:43 <sajkaj> jeanne: But that's not appropriate for our international standard
14:58:19 <JF> https://www.w3.org/TR/2020/WD-coga-usable-20201211/
14:58:29 <Lauriat> Thanks, JF!
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14:59:13 <sajkaj> sajkaj:  Notes this doc is hopefully soon to be a W3C Note
15:00:11 <sajkaj> jennifer_strickland: Sheri and I are meeting later today to get going on headings
15:00:52 <sajkaj> jeanne: XR still on haeatus
15:01:27 <sajkaj> Fazio:  Working still on Maturity Model, nothing specific to report just now
15:02:12 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
15:02:12 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Feedback for the Errors subgroup -- taken up [from jeanne]
15:02:39 <jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JEMptWtJ68pxrlbBukcUi5zwTrDNhftfOCCpN8ehET4/
15:02:42 <sajkaj> jeanne: Especially feedback request, please
15:03:30 <sajkaj> sarahhorton: Asks Tod to pick up from last Friday's presentation ...
15:03:48 <sajkaj> ToddLibby: Got to persistent session data ...
15:04:34 <sajkaj> ToddLibby: Have included User Needs in our doc
15:04:45 <jeanne> q+ to talk about user needs
15:04:56 <sajkaj> ToddLibby: Also Functional Categories, including "All"
15:05:23 <jeanne> q?
15:06:15 <sajkaj> jeanne: Notes what we've done so far can still be changed!
15:06:25 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/how-tos/text-alternatives/ Text alternatives
15:06:33 <sajkaj> jeanne: This example for Text Alternatives
15:07:01 <sajkaj> jeanne: A long ago design, and we should consider does it still work well?
15:07:18 <sajkaj> jeanne: Else, we should come up with a more functional design
15:07:39 <sajkaj> sarahhorton: We've focussed on guidelines -- that level
15:07:53 <sajkaj> sarahhorton: We can try to see how what we have fits
15:08:36 <sajkaj> sarahhorton: Thinking certain methods will be more helpful to certain functional categories
15:08:52 <jennifer_strickland> I attended an outside group that brought up the How-to's and there was a lot of appreciation of the format of these.
15:09:02 <sajkaj> jeanne: Very interested in what we all think about how this fits
15:09:39 <Jemma> +1 to work on critical errors
15:10:15 <sajkaj> jeanne: Recommendation had been to actually write tests, as that would reveal more of critical errors
15:10:36 <sajkaj> jeanne: Might be good to try both ways, critical first, or tests first
15:11:28 <jeanne> q?
15:11:28 <Jemma> +1 to Jeanne's suggestion - attempt to use the structure
15:11:33 <jeanne> ack jea
15:11:33 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about user needs
15:13:04 <jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JEMptWtJ68pxrlbBukcUi5zwTrDNhftfOCCpN8ehET4/edit#heading=h.1zrnq914wn1e
15:13:19 <jeanne> Addressing common needs: In defining user needs, we identified common user needs and unique needs based on functional categories. Now we have a designation of “all” for functional categories that isn’t used in the current Guidelines content. If we convert “all” to listing all functional categories and subcategories, each outcome will list all functional categories, which may blur
15:13:19 <jeanne> the focus. Do you have suggestions of a good approach to noting when an outcome addresses functional needs of all users?
15:13:48 <Fazio> very ambiguous
15:13:58 <Fazio> q+
15:14:12 <sajkaj> sarahhorton: We found it helpful when defining user needs and translating them into functional categories
15:14:54 <sajkaj> sarahhorton: when we said "common need" we didn't have the breakdown for greater/lesser impact, or unique addressing of needs
15:15:03 <sajkaj> q+
15:15:26 <jeanne> ack faz
15:15:32 <sajkaj> q-
15:15:54 <sajkaj> Fazio: Should help with multiple disabilities?
15:16:28 <sajkaj> Fazio: But unsure whether it also refers to nondisabled needs
15:16:30 <jeanne> q+
15:16:45 <jeanne> q-
15:16:49 <sajkaj> q+
15:17:05 <JF> Q+ to ask if those needs across different functional categories are also deemed "equal"?
15:17:26 <sajkaj> sarahhorton: Not so much multiple disabilities, but more one functional need in each category
15:18:09 <sajkaj> jeanne: Believe we wanted to identify needs shared across all pwds, but then also particular needs for certain groups -- so that we could find conflicts
15:18:39 <sajkaj> Fazio: Could be a problem for people objecting to various success criteria
15:18:52 <Lauriat> ack sajkaj
15:19:29 <Fazio> I think so Janina
15:20:01 <sajkaj> sajkaj: Asks if there's a need, but addressed differently (methods?) for different functional categories
15:20:14 <sajkaj> sarah: Not yet come up for us, but sounds like Jeanne's comment
15:20:37 <sajkaj> jeanne: Yes, example contrast may be unique; sometimes increase the contrast; other times decrease it
15:20:38 <Fazio> argument for personalization
15:20:55 <Lauriat> +1 to Fazio
15:21:06 <Lauriat> ack JF
15:21:06 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask if those needs across different functional categories are also deemed "equal"?
15:21:27 <sajkaj> jf: Asking about impact/severity: "Essential for some, useful for all" from EO
15:21:38 <sajkaj> jf: Do we have that thinking metric here?
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15:21:46 <Fazio> q+JF sounds like a better way to start
15:21:49 <sajkaj> s/thinking//
15:22:06 <Fazio> JF sounds like a better way to start
15:22:10 <sajkaj> jf: Are you looking at severity/degree of impact
15:22:38 <sajkaj> sarahhorton: A helpful conversation for our work
15:23:10 <JF> Q+ to follow on re: scoring
15:23:21 <sajkaj> sarahhorton: Believe we've also been talking severity in Conformance
15:23:23 <Fazio> +1 to Sarah
15:23:54 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Creating_Guidelines,_Methods,_and_Supporting_Documents  Creating Guideliens, Outcomes and Methods
15:24:08 <sajkaj> jeanne: May be a helpful reference
15:24:28 <sajkaj> jeanne: Identifying severity is very helpful at user needs level
15:25:00 <sajkaj> jeanne: Notes this group is the first new guideline drafting group since the current conformance model
15:25:05 <Fazio> quantifying severity will be difficulty. Important but difficult
15:25:32 <Fazio> forgive my typos. Darn butterfly keyboard
15:25:41 <Lauriat> ack JF
15:25:41 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to follow on re: scoring
15:26:00 <jennifer_strickland> +1 to JF
15:26:04 <Fazio> +1 to JF
15:26:13 <sajkaj> jf: Notes some things will be more critical from some users than others
15:26:22 <sajkaj> jf: How to handle that?
15:27:02 <sajkaj> jeanne: Asks JF what's missing in severity of critical errors?
15:27:36 <Lauriat> q+ to mention tying this to context of the app/path/task
15:27:39 <sajkaj> jf: Everything will be critical to someone; believe our scoring model needs to be more granular to catch this
15:27:56 <Fazio> +1 JF
15:28:06 <Fazio> q+
15:28:11 <sajkaj> jf: Text alternatives / descriptions critical for blind; important for coga
15:28:12 <laura> laura has joined #silver
15:28:20 <jeanne> ack Laur
15:28:20 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to mention tying this to context of the app/path/task
15:28:58 <sarahhorton> q+
15:29:00 <sajkaj> seaImportant to tie this kind of severity consideration in the context of the user doing something--working on how to express that more cleanly
15:29:04 <Lauriat> ack Fazio
15:29:39 <sajkaj> Fazio: Believe this kind of severity analysis can be a very helpful result of Sarah's work
15:29:41 <Lauriat> ack sarahhorton
15:29:43 <jeanne> zakim, close queue
15:29:43 <Zakim> ok, jeanne, the speaker queue is closed
15:30:00 <sajkaj> sarahhorton: Yes, hoping to do something more nuanced; and please join our work!
15:30:09 <sajkaj> sarahhorton: We need more perspectives in our work.
15:30:39 <jennifer_strickland> Bye y'all!
15:30:39 <laura> bye!
15:30:44 <Azlan> Bye all
15:30:59 <Makoto> Sayonara!
15:31:04 <ToddLibby> ToddLibby has left #silver
15:31:07 <sajkaj> zakim, bye
15:31:07 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been jeanne, MichaelC, sajkaj, Lauriat, jennifer_strickland, Azlan, Fazio, Jemma, Laura_Carlson, Francis_Storr, Makoto, ToddLibby,
15:31:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver
15:31:10 <Zakim> ... joconnor, sarahhorton, JF, SuzanneTaylor
15:31:12 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/09-silver-minutes.html sajkaj
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15:38:34 <JF> I think regulators like the idea of partial conformance, and a 'score' on a scale
15:38:54 <JF> I suspect all of the concerns center on testability
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16:02:01 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
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21:03:42 <jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/silver/labels/Subgroup%3A%20Structured%20Content
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21:04:01 <jennifer_strickland> present+
21:04:02 <jennifer_strickland> :P
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21:04:44 <jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/silver/labels/Subgroup%3A%20Structured%20Content
21:18:25 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#structured-content
21:23:09 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG3/2020/methods/visually-distinct/
21:26:43 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Headings_Subgroup
21:32:41 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Main_Page#Silver_Content_Writing_Resources
21:40:28 <jeanne> Functional Needs <- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eJkgXqbh7dx3uD6XAy8XAANmwfbbVZ5GKb_gbsUdkVs/edit
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