IRC log of aria-apg on 2021-03-09
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 18:31:04 [RRSAgent]
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- 18:31:04 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/09-aria-apg-irc
- 18:31:12 [Zakim]
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- 18:31:22 [Matt_King]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 18:31:38 [Matt_King]
- MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
- 18:31:48 [Matt_King]
- CHAIR: Matt King
- 18:31:53 [Matt_King]
- present+
- 18:31:59 [Matt_King]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 18:31:59 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/09-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
- 18:32:06 [Matt_King]
- zakim, clear agenda
- 18:32:06 [Zakim]
- agenda cleared
- 18:46:54 [Matt_King_]
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- 19:00:29 [MarkMccarthy]
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- 19:00:32 [MarkMccarthy]
- present+
- 19:01:14 [ZoeBijl]
- present+
- 19:02:20 [jamesn]
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- 19:02:29 [sarah_higley]
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- 19:02:39 [Jemma]
- present+
- 19:02:46 [jamesn]
- /me regrets - swamped
- 19:04:15 [sarah_higley]
- does anyone have a direct zoom link? I'm getting security errors trying to access the w3c meeting info page
- 19:04:17 [Jemma]
- agenda?
- 19:04:20 [MarkMccarthy]
- one sec!
- 19:04:49 [sarah_higley]
- thanks so much! ♥
- 19:05:17 [carmacleod]
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- 19:05:23 [carmacleod]
- present+
- 19:05:27 [MarkMccarthy]
- regrets+ jamesn CurtBellew
- 19:05:35 [MarkMccarthy]
- scribe: MarkMccarthy
- 19:06:05 [MarkMccarthy]
- TOPIC: Modal dialog questions
- 19:06:20 [MarkMccarthy]
- mck: we have a couple issues out there, but there are 2 that are pressing
- 19:07:07 [Jemma]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1615
- 19:07:12 [Jemma]
- dialog issue
- 19:07:13 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: issue 1615 - saying our dialogs don't close when you click outside of them... not sure if this was itentional or an oversight
- 19:07:35 [siri]
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- 19:07:38 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: seems like we should just make it part of the implementation
- 19:07:57 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: i also noticed these don't have close buttons...so lets add both. there's a cancel button but not a close button
- 19:08:05 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: seriously?!
- 19:08:08 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: i know!
- 19:08:42 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: well last time we checked on these, it was more about technical issues related to iphones, so that's fair I guess. good catch Sarah!
- 19:09:01 [carmacleod]
- https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#dialog_modal
- 19:09:13 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: so we'll add close button AND that.
- 19:09:37 [MarkMccarthy]
- ZoeBijl: well i have some conflicts about it. if you click outside of the modal, is the data you already put in saved? or deleted?
- 19:09:44 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: it should be saved
- 19:09:57 [MarkMccarthy]
- ZoeBijl: yes, but is that what people will do? not sure this is the place to do that
- 19:10:21 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: so then in that case, is "cancel" different than "close"?
- 19:11:12 [MarkMccarthy]
- ZoeBijl: doesn't WCAG say...
- 19:11:21 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: right, easy undo would cover that
- 19:12:01 [MarkMccarthy]
- ZoeBijl: what i find (elsewhere) is that i'd click outside it accidentally and it wouldn't save the data - it's frustrating!
- 19:13:00 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: so there's a couple choices - have the X icon for mouse users, and have that exactly duplicate the cancel button. OR distinct functionality where "close" doesn't remove the data but "cancel" does
- 19:13:09 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: yep, and they each have their own tab stops
- 19:13:11 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: right
- 19:13:13 [MarkMccarthy]
- MarkMccarthy: +1
- 19:13:35 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: another possibility is to get rid of cancel entirely and just change it to a close button
- 19:13:54 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: i like that too!
- 19:13:57 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: yeah!
- 19:14:22 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: maybe we'll have to look at the project to make sure we're covering all bases, but that make sense
- 19:14:35 [MarkMccarthy]
- MarkMccarthy: i think that's a better UX
- 19:14:40 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: yeah, less complexity
- 19:15:16 [ZoeBijl]
- For the minutes, this is the WCAG criteria that Matt and I were discussing: https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#error-prevention-legal-financial-data
- 19:15:32 [MarkMccarthy]
- thank you zoe!
- 19:15:54 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: so then, any objections to removing the cancel button and replacing with a close icon/button in the upper right?
- 19:15:59 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: and saving the data?
- 19:16:13 [MarkMccarthy]
- s/thank you zoe!/thank you Zoe!
- 19:16:21 [MarkMccarthy]
- [no objections]
- 19:16:52 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: [committing the actions to an issue]
- 19:17:10 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: our actions are in a comment in issue 1615!
- 19:18:03 [MarkMccarthy]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1615
- 19:19:09 [MarkMccarthy]
- TOPIC: Modal Dialog - Tab Ring
- 19:19:32 [Jemma]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1772
- 19:20:59 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: next item, issue 1772. Says APG should allow focus to go outside the dialog. After many other comments... Sina is asking if this is anything for ARIA to handle or not.
- 19:21:15 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: but sarah_higley's last comment was suggesting not putting as much onus on authors
- 19:21:25 [Jemma]
- sarah's comment https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1772#issuecomment-793285322
- 19:21:43 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: the reason i put that in is that when i've suggested using inert to handle focus managment, i've had pushback citing ARIA practices.
- 19:21:56 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: does our break anything really?
- 19:22:22 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: so this isn't exactly about our example, but the wording in practices. generally, active focus management tends to be buggier
- 19:23:00 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: basically, it just seems like inert is making things funky
- 19:23:54 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: this is one of those reasons the APG redesign project is discussing scope increases, so we can better test and write for things like this. this'd be lovely for something like that
- 19:23:59 [Jemma]
- sarah -"Could we have some wording along the lines of "Tab does not move focus into the inactive parts of the page while the modal is open", then follow up with browsers and the HTML spec?"
- 19:24:07 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: in the meantime, do you think we should add a note to the pattern, if so what to add? or what to do?
- 19:24:45 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: could we have something in the language like, "we think the best UX is to keep focus trapped in the dialog, but this should be handled by browsers..." etc etc. lots of wordsmithing, of course
- 19:25:19 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: i think it'd be better if we raised the issue to the right places first. as well as some broader consensus - I don't want APG to seem so monolithic
- 19:25:36 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: maybe something like "Do your best to make this work, we know it's rough in spots" or something similar
- 19:26:03 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: Alice basically mentioned it'd be hard for browsers to make this change, but seemed a little optimistic
- 19:26:18 [MarkMccarthy]
- s/this change/this change because people are used to it
- 19:27:01 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: Well, I'd love to see it be more general, so tabbing stays in the webpage completely regardless of a dialog. it'd be so much easier in so many ways
- 19:27:29 [jongund]
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- 19:27:45 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: especially on Mac, it's so hard to skip the browser chrome
- 19:27:50 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: I thought that was just me!
- 19:28:42 [MarkMccarthy]
- [various comisserating about tabbing in browser chrome]
- 19:29:24 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: i don't have a good answer about _that_, but I'm hopeful we could find some consensus about the modals
- 19:30:01 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: so HTML doesn't specify how browsers handle their chrome, right?
- 19:30:02 [MarkMccarthy]
- carmacleod: yep
- 19:30:16 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: could it be part of spec for a dialog element?
- 19:30:46 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: _that_ could be part of HTML, though I don't think i've seen it. but something specific for browser modals and webpage modals?
- 19:30:56 [MarkMccarthy]
- s/something specific/adding something specific
- 19:31:28 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: to be clear, i don't think we need an HTML change or addition, i think it'd be a behavior thing. (and I don't think we need a specific example for each either)
- 19:32:17 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: what spec does tabindex live in? i vaguely remember somethign about that, some stuff to do with tabindex=-1 and ARIA...but I don't remember the spec. Maybe this would go in _that_ spec
- 19:32:20 [carmacleod]
- https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/interaction.html#attr-tabindex
- 19:32:25 [MarkMccarthy]
- s/somethign/something
- 19:32:28 [jongund]
- present+ jongund
- 19:32:36 [MarkMccarthy]
- carmacleod: maybe it'd go in this one (pasted above)
- 19:33:03 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: so i'd support that proposal, adding some language around inert. then we can publically try to rally support
- 19:33:10 [MarkMccarthy]
- sarah_higley: sounds good to me!
- 19:33:49 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: i'll get to this unless anyone else wants to file that issue
- 19:34:12 [MarkMccarthy]
- github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1772
- 19:34:17 [MarkMccarthy]
- TOPIC: Slider pull requests
- 19:34:58 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: so, focusing on the thermostat slider - let's start with Jemma's questions
- 19:35:44 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: been testing these examples with TalkBack, finding repeated problems in reading the value on sliders. i'm getting percentages, not any other values
- 19:36:10 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: on iOS, the color view slider was reading the number correctly. i didn't check the theromstat one with iOS yet
- 19:37:10 [MarkMccarthy]
- carmacleod: i think Patrick L. did some testing and found that Android needs work, not our code.
- 19:37:12 [MarkMccarthy]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1755#issuecomment-782607921
- 19:37:23 [MarkMccarthy]
- s/and found/and came to the conclusion that
- 19:38:05 [MarkMccarthy]
- jongund: iOS is reading the aria-valuetext, so that's working okay
- 19:38:25 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: does color viewer have -valuetext?
- 19:38:41 [MarkMccarthy]
- jongund: i found the same issues with TalkBack, just telling me percentages
- 19:39:24 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: it seemed like the math was off too
- 19:39:58 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: so my questions - in the thermostat description it says there's 3 sliders but there's only 2, is that right?
- 19:39:59 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: yes
- 19:40:41 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: cool that's an easy change. so, next: do we want to mix buttons into this? it feels like adding complexity that doesn't necessarily help the example; i feel the buttons are a distraction
- 19:41:11 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: they _do_ add a lot of aural clutter, for what that's worth
- 19:41:27 [MarkMccarthy]
- carmacleod: did we add them originally because we thought that was the mobile solution?
- 19:41:31 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: i think...
- 19:41:44 [MarkMccarthy]
- carmacleod: so now that they work pretty well, at least on iOS and iPadOS, maybe we can remove them
- 19:42:01 [MarkMccarthy]
- jongund: they're labels, so i think when you press a label (like on a radio button) it should change it
- 19:42:17 [MarkMccarthy]
- carmacleod: so then maybe it doesn't need to be a <button>?
- 19:42:29 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: yeah... and does it need all the words, or could it be more graphical?
- 19:43:07 [MarkMccarthy]
- jongund: the labels need to be visible since they correspond to the slider
- 19:43:19 [MarkMccarthy]
- carmacleod: i think they're nice, but they don't _have to_ be buttons
- 19:43:27 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: they could be clickable and tappable
- 19:43:37 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: **pointerable** [laughs]
- 19:43:54 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: that should simplify the documentation and aural experience
- 19:45:12 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: so i have a minor issue with the fan speed example - i can set the speed but can't confirm that it was set successfully. does it matter that a screen reader wouldn't get that confirmation?
- 19:45:28 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: if it was working correctly, it'd tell you what the current setting is - probably also a TalkBack problem
- 19:45:44 [MarkMccarthy]
- jongund: did you want me to update the links in master etc. when I have a PR?
- 19:45:57 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: we should update the link to the one that's already merged, and this one
- 19:46:04 [MarkMccarthy]
- jongund: but the other examples should be updated
- 19:46:10 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: yes, for the one that's already merged
- 19:46:47 [MarkMccarthy]
- jongund: i haven't been updating those, you have, so I wanted to check
- 19:46:54 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: if you'd like to, go for it!
- 19:48:15 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: so, after I do editorial review...
- 19:48:26 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: only code, test, and Windows a11y reviews are left
- 19:48:36 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: what to do about TalkBack then?
- 19:48:43 [MarkMccarthy]
- carmacleod: open bugs with them?
- 19:48:49 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: for extra credit
- 19:49:05 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: it'd save work from the ARIA-AT project
- 19:49:44 [Jemma]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1803
- 19:49:45 [MarkMccarthy]
- carmacleod: one thing - I did create a PR for updating the link in aria-practices.html, 1803, for the color slider. that's already done, just needs to be merged
- 19:49:56 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: i'll take care of that, thanks!
- 19:51:51 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: multi-thumb slider is next, 1758
- 19:51:57 [Jemma]
- https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria-practices/slider-multithumb-update/examples/slider/slider-multithumb.html
- 19:52:05 [Jemma]
- PR 1758
- 19:52:12 [MarkMccarthy]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/1758
- 19:52:56 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: can someone take on visual design review in the next two weeks?
- 19:53:16 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: I can if no one else is available
- 19:53:33 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: i'll put Jess on this as well (for code and test)
- 19:54:04 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: shall we split accessibility testing again?
- 19:54:10 [MarkMccarthy]
- MarkMccarthy: yeah that'd be good
- 19:54:17 [MarkMccarthy]
- carmacleod: i can do MacOS testing again
- 19:54:24 [MarkMccarthy]
- Jemma: and I can do TalkBack again
- 19:55:16 [Jemma]
- zoe, would you like to try talkback testing as third attempt?
- 19:57:07 [ZoeBijl]
- ]/me I don’t gave an Android device. I can test Narrator on Windows Phone tho 😂
- 19:57:20 [ZoeBijl]
- s/me I don’t gave an Android device. I can test Narrator on Windows Phone tho 😂//
- 20:01:11 [MarkMccarthy]
- jongund: i like the idea of having another example that doesnt have valuetext
- 20:01:23 [MarkMccarthy]
- Matt_King: that would be nice, but isn't exactly necessary right now
- 20:02:35 [MarkMccarthy]
- zakim, who is here?
- 20:02:36 [Zakim]
- Present: Matt_King, MarkMccarthy, ZoeBijl, Jemma, carmacleod, jongund
- 20:02:37 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see jongund, siri, carmacleod, sarah_higley, jamesn, MarkMccarthy, Matt_King, Zakim, RRSAgent, github-bot, Jemma, MichaelC, zcorpan_, ZoeBijl, s3ththompson, trackbot
- 20:02:47 [MarkMccarthy]
- present+ siri
- 20:03:04 [MarkMccarthy]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 20:03:04 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/09-aria-apg-minutes.html MarkMccarthy