13:33:32 RRSAgent has joined #eo 13:33:32 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/05-eo-irc 13:33:34 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:33:34 Zakim has joined #eo 13:33:36 Meeting: Accessibility Education and Outreach Working Group (EOWG) Teleconference 13:33:36 Date: 05 March 2021 13:38:58 Present: Shawn, Shadi, Brent, Jade, Adina, Laura, Daniel, Estella, Jason 13:40:43 WCAG Video Meeting 13:40:44 * Background - [https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Video-Based_Resources#Deliverable_2_.28Jun_2020.29:_WCAG_2.1_Guidelines_and_Success_Criteria Deliverables for WCAG 2.1 Guidelines and Success Criteria Videos] 13:40:44 * Project Requirements Document - [https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Video-Based_Resources/WCAG_Requirements Video-Based Resources/WCAG Requirements] 13:40:44 * First set of [https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Video-Based_Resources/WCAG_Requirements/Sample_Scripts Sample Scripts] 13:40:45 ** '''Note:''' The videos were designed to '''''not''''' require audio description (all visuals should be sufficiently described in the audio). 13:40:45 * [https://github.com/w3c/wai-wcag-videos/issues WCAG Videos GitHub Repository] (for entering issues) 13:42:01 Chairs: Brent, Shadi 13:42:10 Laura has joined #eo 13:42:15 Scribe: Daniel 13:42:18 present+ Laura 13:42:19 scribe: Daniel 13:42:27 zakim, who is on the phone? 13:42:27 Present: Shawn, Shadi, Brent, Jade, Adina, Laura, Daniel, Estella, Jason 13:42:52 Topic: Sample Scripts 13:43:14 https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Video-Based_Resources/WCAG_Requirements/Sample_Scripts 13:43:24 eoncins has joined #eo 13:44:13 haltersweb has joined #eo 13:45:01 Sahdi: We want small videos for the majority of WCAG guidelines and SCs 13:45:25 ... Mainly to explain the requirements. Not benefits in this case, but emphasis on requirements 13:45:32 ... For example "Captions" 13:45:48 ... We may discard some requirements in the process 13:46:05 ... We are not trying to provide omre explanations than what there are in the understanding document 13:46:21 ... but video gives another (more human) perspective 13:46:45 ... We could have up to 20-30 personas, trying to avoid stereotypes and cover different perspectives 13:47:01 ... This relates to How People with Disabilities use the Web 13:47:10 ... They have now 10-12 (working on the details) 13:47:37 ... For caption they have Martine 13:47:58 ... Details on the persona are on How People with Disabilities use the Web 13:48:27 ... Later on we will be doing a video specific on several personas 13:48:51 ... Started with four sample scripts, we need to look at these very closely, study them, do these meet the requirements? 13:49:21 ... In the visuals there is a bit on camera angle, but we don't want to focus on this very much as there will be a film director 13:49:57 ... But we do want to describe the visuals and audio at the same time, audio and visual should be complementary 13:50:08 ... We want these videos to be self-described 13:50:30 ... If this is the way to move forward, we will continue with other scripts 13:50:33 ... Questions? 13:51:14 Adina: About not using audio description. Did som research. Not sure if its up for discusion. 13:52:28 [ https://www.w3.org/WAI/media/av/description/#checklist ] 13:52:48 ...1.2.5 AA prerecorded. Audio Descriptions must be provided for all prerecorded video content. If it is just the person talking, audio description is not needed. But if there are things happening you need to inform the user 13:53:09 ... For example including who is on stage, who is speaking, entrances, actions, etc 13:53:39 ... under 508 refresh, audio descriptions seems to be reqquired even without accommodation request 13:53:49 q+ 13:53:55 [ Shawn also notes that Access Board folks support https://www.w3.org/WAI/media/av/ ] 13:54:12 ... If we don't do audio description, are we going against our own requirements? Or may others perceive that as such? 13:54:44 ... Have we approached people in the blind community giving them the audio and visual script and have we asked them if the audio is enough? 13:54:54 q+ to address a few and point to this for last https://www.w3.org/WAI/videos/standards-and-benefits/#audio-description 13:55:29 Shadi: Good point. I remember discussions on text images, some want to be brief, some not, it depends on what the intent of the imagery. 13:55:48 ... There might be now bugs where the audio iniformation is not adequate for the visuals 13:56:21 https://www.w3.org/WAI/media/av/av-content/#integrate-description 13:56:29 q- actually I was about to ask about integrated AD 13:57:10 Shawn: concept of "integrated descriptions" that is what we are trying to do here, we want to integrate the descriptions into the main audio 13:57:42 ... It addresses the point, we don't want people to think we are not following the guidelines 13:57:54 ... We had videos and put info about why we did not have descriptions 13:57:58 q+ 13:58:14 ack sha 13:58:14 shawn, you wanted to address a few and point to this for last https://www.w3.org/WAI/videos/standards-and-benefits/#audio-description 13:58:56 ack eon 13:59:16 q+ 13:59:23 Estella: It is important to think of the scripts with the integrated description approach in mind. 13:59:29 ack Jason 14:00:32 Jason: I appreciate all the work in here 14:00:58 Ack Jade 14:01:13 Jade: Why are these four videos chosen to start with? 14:01:32 Shadi: Some of these had the most objections in the survey results 14:01:42 q+ 14:02:17 ... Survey was maybe not clear for some of the people who had objected 14:02:32 ... Some felt these videos were going to be more explanatory 14:03:20 Shawn: I am pretty sure that I had a different understanding when I answered the survey 14:03:33 q+ 14:03:36 ... Not sure that we want a video for every single requirement 14:03:50 ... I think these are the ones we want to talk about first 14:04:15 ack sh 14:04:15 Ack Shawn 14:04:19 ack hal 14:04:51 Adina: Some may have problems parsing any W3C content because it is too much for the brain to take in. 14:05:37 ... Something that we are doing is everywhere where there is instructions, we are giving a "Show me" instead for people with different neuro-diverse consumer abilities 14:05:55 +1 to Adina 14:06:10 Shadi: Good point. We may have the opposite, that video content preescribes the timeline and does not let you go at your own pace 14:06:25 ... We want to have best of both worlds with video and text resources 14:07:15 Shadi: Is this really the correct scope? Are we staying within the requirements themselves? 14:07:43 ... If there is a reason to break this rule, we could do it, but need to be careful with scope creep 14:08:13 ... Are we doing OK with integrated descriptions? Do we have the correct visuals? 14:09:02 ... Are each of the videos worth doing? 14:09:09 q+ 14:09:26 ... Do we need to crewate a different video for example for live captions? 14:09:51 ... There is a use case, such as live press conferences, but maybe we can cover it with the one we now have on Captions 14:10:06 ack eon 14:10:22 Estella: I think there is a need for live and pre-recorded captions 14:10:27 q+ 14:11:20 Shadi: We might decide differently for captions than for other requirements, or we may end up doing them. 14:11:45 ... As we go through every script we need to ask ourselves if we need to spend resources filming it or we'd better skip it 14:12:09 q+ 14:12:12 Estella: Also the way you produce live and pre-recorded captions varies. The services are different. 14:12:22 Shadi: Does the understanding document reflect that? 14:13:36 ack Jason 14:13:43 Jason: For efficiency we may need to repurpose, but it is important to think about how we are presenting it. Maybe if we can cover three criteria and we manage to explain and package them appropriately, that would be good. 14:14:16 ... It is going to be difficult to convey that form a cognition perspective 14:14:44 ... Interested in helping with the brainstorming 14:15:11 Shadi: There might be times when we decide to use the same video, for example language of a page and language of parts 14:15:37 ack Jade 14:16:30 Jade: Would be odd to have SCs without videos in terms of user expectations 14:17:51 Shadi: Let's focus on 1. explaining the requirements, not going beyond, 2. integrated descriptions, and 3. whether each script is worth filming 14:18:09 Shadi: In terms of workflow, this is now on a wiki, but we are moving to GitHub 14:18:26 ... Each script would have its own file, so that we can raise issues on the repository 14:18:46 q+ 14:18:47 ... You need a GitHub account, then you go to "New Issue", describe it in the title, and contextualize it in the comments. 14:19:26 ... See example issue to understand workflow and how to raise an issue 14:19:52 ... Making sure people are comfortable with that 14:20:19 ... There is also more functionality, where you could do your edits inline and then submit a pull request 14:20:39 q+ GitHub issues can be handled via email if so desired 14:21:06 Shadi: When there is a problem it is better to raise this as an issue, if you have specific edits you may want to go through a pull request 14:21:12 ack halt 14:21:42 Adina: You may also want to show people how you can watch, and thus you'll get emails of other people 14:22:31 Shadi: There is already people watching the repository. You could mention people using "@" 14:23:20 ... You can filter email based on different flags, there might be a significant amount of GitHub emails 14:24:05 Shadi: Are your issues mostly editorial, Brent? 14:24:19 Brent: Most are editorial 14:24:32 ... But we may want to talk about #8 14:24:51 ... Maybe it is worth adding the link above the script table for all of the videos 14:25:29 I like that idea 14:26:47 Shadi: Watching issues is good, so that you do not repeat issues. Sometimes you can also react to comments (thumbs up/down and others) 14:26:51 My comments are made on my notepad. I will add them here. 14:27:21 Adina: I have some content comments and questions, so I will transfer them over to GitHub 14:28:23 ... Under Focus Visible -- at the end, "provide a setting ..." A is ont about having a setting, it is only about visible focus. I have had developers asking to have something somewhere so that the focus is shown after clicking a button 14:28:26 q+ 14:28:52 Brent: I had the same feeling. Should we be saying that one way to solve this is with a setting? 14:29:03 q- 14:29:27 Brent: You can go ahead and comment on my already existing issue on this. 14:29:35 I have to jump on a call everyone thank you and have a great weekend! 14:30:05 q+ 14:30:10 Shadi: You both are right. You sometimes forget that this is going to be further read and interpreted by people in many ways 14:31:11 ack shawn 14:31:12 ... We may need to rethink this as "fortunately there is anothyer website which provides focus indicator" 14:31:33 Shawn: Do you want to ask the group to indicate that more clearly in the issues? Maybe with labels? 14:33:18 Shadi: It might be easier for you that as you type your title you use [I] for important and [E] for editorial, and also if you provide labels 14:34:09 ... These can be changed later on, this is an evolving process 14:35:17 Adina: 2.3.3 -- paralax is a particular type of effect. This animation would not be necessarily paralax, there are different ways to do such animation and this could be understood as "don't use paralax, use the others" 14:36:16 q+ 14:36:54 Shadi: Is there anything regarding integrated descriptions? 14:37:25 ack halt 14:39:28 Adina: 2.3.3 AAA Scene 2. I would suggest you start showing it from the beginning, either animation is turned off or doesn't last more than 3 seconds. If it animates a bit, this may not cause problems, the issue is if it omves when she does not want to 14:40:05 Shadi: If we show a particular type of animation here, could that be taken as "This is the motion that we should not be doing"? 14:40:17 ack haltersweb 14:41:00 Adina: It will depend on the audio. If we show like a star moving or something, that wouldn't be too specific and would help get the general idea 14:41:41 ... ... You might say something different than scrolling 14:42:29 Shadi: Thanks for all these comments. The more perspectives we have, the better the resource will be. 14:42:46 Shadi: Any questions or thoughts? 14:43:03 https://github.com/w3c/wai-wcag-videos/issues 14:43:12 q+ 14:43:23 retweets welcome --->>> https://twitter.com/w3c_wai/status/1367846761428119552 14:43:31 ack dan 14:43:39 q+ 14:44:54 Daniel: Expand the CC acronym? 14:45:04 ack shawn 14:45:13 Brent: This is in the visuals 14:45:17 Shadi: Will do anyway 14:45:57 Shawn: There are two tweets about integrated descriptions, may be people want to retweet 14:46:41 q+ 14:46:41 Shadi: If you ahve further questions, feel free to reach out to me or to put them in GitHub 14:47:20 ack ha 14:47:23 ... While you are reviewing some scripts, I will be working on others 14:47:46 q+ 14:47:50 Adina: I have a meeting at 10 am Eastern 14:48:15 ... I will try to move it for Fridays, but not sure 14:48:43 ack sha 14:49:09 Shawn: Would others want to draft scripts? 14:50:15 ... It is hard work to put something and then have it reviewed by the group, but this is a very constructive approach and process, so don't be afraid 14:51:29 ... The biggest issue is the amount of work it takes. If some could take some of these scripts up, that would really help get these videos done. 14:52:01 Jade: I am happy to take one of these 14:53:00 Shadi: I will send an email explaining what I will be working on, so be quick to pick up some other SCs different from these four and try to write something 14:54:43 Estella: Maybe not myself, but I have a project where they might be somebody willing to get involved. 14:57:54 Estella: Perspectives and other videos have issues with very fast subtitles and very long lines in them. We in Europe have criteria around characters per second and per line 14:58:21 Shawn: We have not had feedback, we would welcome authors to fix them. 14:59:04 I have to leave for my 10:00am meeting. Ciao!! 14:59:19 Shawn: There is going to be a Cataln translation. Would they fix these issues? 14:59:31 Estella: Will follow-up with you Shawn. 15:00:10 Shadi: We may need to pay more attention to captions for these videos. 15:00:45 Shawn: Maybe we do need to say more 15:01:10 Estella: There is main guidance and then there are specifics based on country mainly 15:01:59 ... Similarly, this applies to audio descriptions, subtitles, and others 15:03:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:03:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/05-eo-minutes.html Daniel 15:05:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:05:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/05-eo-minutes.html Daniel 15:16:05 s/Sahdi:/Shadi:/ 15:16:51 s/omre /more / 15:17:25 s/som research/some research/ 15:18:11 s/its up for discusion/it's up for discussion/ 15:19:09 s/shawn:/Shawn:/ 15:20:16 s/descriptions seems/description seems/ 15:20:48 s/reqquired/required/ 15:21:36 s/iniformation /information/ 15:22:51 s/there is instructions,/there are instructions,/ 15:23:19 s/preescribes/prescribes/ 15:23:44 s/crewate/create/ 15:24:31 s/ ont about/ not about/ 15:25:30 s/anothyer/another/ 15:26:16 s/paralax/parallax/ 15:26:56 s/ omves/ moves/ 15:27:21 s/ ahve/ have/ 15:28:22 s/cataln/catalan/ 15:28:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:28:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/05-eo-minutes.html Daniel 15:38:43 s|s/cataln/catalan/|| 15:39:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:39:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/05-eo-minutes.html Daniel 15:41:31 trackbot, end meeting 15:41:31 Zakim, list attendees 15:41:31 As of this point the attendees have been Shawn, Shadi, Brent, Jade, Adina, Laura, Daniel, Estella, Jason 15:41:39 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:41:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/05-eo-minutes.html trackbot 15:41:40 RRSAgent, bye 15:41:40 I see no action items