23:52:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
23:52:33 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/04-epub-irc
23:52:35 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
23:52:36 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
23:52:46 <wendyreid> meeting: EPUB3 WG Telco March 4, 2021
23:52:50 <wendyreid> date: 2021-03-04
23:52:56 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
23:53:42 <wendyreid> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Mar/0000.html
23:55:49 <MattChan> MattChan has joined #epub
23:59:26 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #epub
23:59:51 <MasakazuKitahara> MasakazuKitahara has joined #epub
23:59:56 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
00:00:04 <toshiakikoike> present+
00:00:20 <wendyreid> present+
00:00:31 <MattChan> present+
00:01:36 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #epub
00:03:39 <marisa> marisa has joined #epub
00:03:45 <duga> duga has joined #epub
00:03:51 <duga> present+
00:03:55 <marisa> present+
00:04:07 <MattChan> scribe+
00:04:47 <mgarrish> present+
00:05:05 <MattChan> wendyreid: this week we are going through outstanding issues
00:05:16 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #epub
00:05:23 <MattChan> ... a lot of them are carryover issues from prior versions of spec
00:05:40 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1026
00:06:00 <MattChan> ... Media type parameters for EPUB
00:06:31 <MattChan> ... epub type parameter would add hint to epub mime type about the specific epub
00:06:46 <MattChan> ... e.g. is it FXL? Does it have a special DRM?
00:07:02 <MattChan> ... these hints can be interpreted by RS for specific functionality
00:07:20 <MattChan> ... there was a concern about backwards compat, but it was determined that that wasn't really an issue
00:07:29 <duga> q+
00:07:31 <MattChan> ... however, a lot of this same info can be found in package metadata
00:07:33 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:07:41 <shiestyle> present+
00:07:55 <MattChan> duga: clarify that this is changing IANA registration, not the mimetype file
00:08:21 <MattChan> wendyreid: benjamin posted that there is an existing registry of IANA proeprties
00:09:31 <MattChan> dauwhe joining by call-in
00:09:52 <wendyreid> present+ dauwhe
00:10:04 <MattChan> dauwhe: without interest from multiple implementers I'm not sure that we should invest in this issue speculatively
00:10:10 <wendyreid> Proposal: Close issue #1026, will not implement
00:10:16 <mgarrish> +1
00:10:17 <duga> +1
00:10:19 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:10:19 <marisa> +1
00:10:22 <wendyreid> +1
00:10:22 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:10:22 <MattChan> +1
00:10:34 <wendyreid> Resolved: Close issue #1026, will not implement
00:11:04 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/841
00:11:10 <MattChan> wendyreid: Allow multiple instances of dcterms:modified
00:11:43 <MattChan> ... i believe the initial intent was to allow this to show progression of update to book
00:11:50 <duga> q+
00:11:51 <MattChan> mgarrish: yeah, a revision history
00:12:06 <MattChan> ... at the time we cared because of Release Identifier
00:12:14 <MattChan> ... but now it doesn't seem to matter as much
00:12:34 <MattChan> ... but if we have multiple, we should define which one is the last modified
00:12:37 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:12:54 <MattChan> duga: i also don't really care, but what does this enable?
00:13:15 <MattChan> ... you can't add comments to these fields, so it would just be a bunch of ambiguous dates and times
00:13:43 <MattChan> ... not against removing restriction on only having one, but also not really any features that would benefit from doing so
00:14:19 <MattChan> wendyreid: in practice, one thing that i've seen publishers do is track the version of the epub on the copyright page
00:14:32 <MattChan> dauwhe: all the big trade publishers do that
00:14:46 <MattChan> ... ours is a long string that is unintelligible to outsiders
00:14:58 <MattChan> ... and we'd keep doing this regardless of this field
00:15:13 <MattChan> s/of this field/changes to this field
00:15:40 <wendyreid> Proposal: Close issue 841, will not change usage of dcterms:modified
00:15:42 <duga> +1
00:15:45 <MattChan> +1
00:15:46 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:15:46 <mgarrish> 0
00:15:46 <wendyreid> +1
00:15:49 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:15:52 <marisa> 0
00:16:13 <MattChan> wendyreid: mgarrish please feel free to refine the language
00:16:16 <wendyreid> Resolved: Close issue 841, will not change usage of dcterms:modified
00:16:22 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/588
00:16:29 <MattChan> ... Complex page layouts
00:16:58 <MattChan> ... basically asking why nothing exists between reflow and completely fixed layouts
00:17:18 <MattChan> ... e.g. something like fixed, but which could respond to things like media queries
00:17:28 <MattChan> ... now we have things like grid and flexbox
00:17:29 <mgarrish> q+
00:17:32 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
00:17:57 <MattChan> mgarrish: we could really get sucked into something big like this
00:18:03 <duga> q+
00:18:06 <MattChan> ... it really needs to be fleshed out
00:18:20 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:18:21 <MattChan> ... and could have a seriously negative impact on readability of some epubs
00:18:41 <MattChan> duga: this also comes from a time when people were trying to do a lot with magazines in epub format
00:18:47 <MattChan> ... not so much of a priority these days
00:19:01 <MattChan> ... may be another feature with lack of implementation support
00:19:39 <MattChan> dauwhe: i think its hard to do things without proposed implementations (i.e. how it would work in detail, what it would enable)
00:19:58 <MattChan> ... probably not for our current spec
00:20:13 <MattChan> wendyreid: i see the use case, but agree with mgarrish that there could be a big negative impact on a11y if done badly
00:20:23 <MattChan> ... more experimentation is needed first
00:20:41 <MattChan> dauwhe: ultimately something other than fxl could help a11y, but we don't know what that is
00:21:05 <MattChan> wendyreid: has anyone done any interesting experiments in this area in JP?
00:21:24 <MattChan> shiestyle: in japan, it is not easy to make fxls
00:21:50 <MattChan> ... fxl content and magazines are mostly made using images
00:22:17 <wendyreid> Proposal: Close issue 588
00:22:20 <duga> +1
00:22:20 <mgarrish> +1
00:22:22 <wendyreid> +1
00:22:22 <MattChan> +1
00:22:24 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:22:25 <shiestyle> +1
00:22:25 <marisa> +1
00:22:31 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:22:34 <wendyreid> Resolved: Close issue 588
00:22:46 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/428
00:22:55 <MattChan> wendyreid: [Media Overlays] Add media:paused-class
00:23:50 <MattChan> duga: this was a way to style content when MO playback is paused
00:23:51 <duga> q+
00:24:01 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:24:44 <MattChan> marisa: so, you'd be playing MO and an element would be highlighted, and then you would pause, and the style of that element would change to whatever is defined by media:paused
00:25:01 <MattChan> wendyreid: e.g. the highlight could change to an underline
00:25:15 <MattChan> duga: so right now, when you pause, what happens when you pause?
00:25:23 <MattChan> marisa: we don't say what should happen
00:25:37 <MattChan> duga: so this would make behaviour clearer
00:25:54 <MattChan> wendyreid: this is something that RSes might already have found a behaviour for...
00:26:03 <MattChan> marisa: I think different RSes do their own thing
00:26:34 <MattChan> ... from an implementation point of view, if you don't address this, then the styling will just stay even when the MO playback is paused
00:26:59 <MattChan> ... could this open up a can of worms?
00:27:21 <MattChan> wendyreid: most RSes that implement MO also implement a standard style
00:27:34 <MattChan> ... that overwrites what the content says
00:27:51 <MattChan> duga: we don't do that, we just go with whatever style the content says to apply for MO playback
00:28:47 <MattChan> marisa: i'm trying to think of what impact this has on synched media where we do highlighting in a pretty different way
00:28:56 <MattChan> wendyreid: could we just defer this to synched media?
00:29:09 <MattChan> marisa: synced media already has a pretty long list of deferred things
00:29:30 <MattChan> duga: one thing to consider is that if we do add this, existing content would be absolutely okay
00:29:43 <MattChan> ... and then if new content begins to use this feature, it's fairly easy to implement
00:30:12 <MattChan> marisa: a player can also do this without it formally being in spec, but its just that author wouldn't be able to pick the style
00:30:31 <MattChan> dauwhe: who filed the original issue?
00:31:03 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
00:31:14 <MattChan> all now referring to posts in the issue
00:31:48 <MattChan> dauwhe: i think we should ask around to see if people are actually interested in using this feature
00:31:51 <wendyreid> Proposal: Explore implementation of a  media:paused class in EPUB 3.3
00:32:02 <duga> +1
00:32:03 <MattChan> +1
00:32:04 <mgarrish> +1
00:32:06 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:32:07 <wendyreid> +1
00:32:08 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:32:16 <wendyreid> Resolved: Explore implementation of a  media:paused class in EPUB 3.3
00:32:28 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1527
00:32:37 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1553
00:32:39 <MattChan> wendyreid: these next two are related
00:33:04 <MattChan> ... there was some confusion about the example provided for <dc:title>
00:33:24 <MattChan> ... specifically when there are multiple, but they have different xml:langs
00:33:41 <MattChan> ... the discussion raised the question of whether refines needs a translation value
00:34:02 <MattChan> ... because the different titles might not be translations of one another
00:34:22 <mgarrish> q+
00:34:42 <MattChan> dauwhe: is there any RS that does anything with the title beyond the bare minimum?
00:34:52 <MattChan> wendyreid: ...probably no
00:35:28 <MattChan> dauwhe: i've been writing tests and most RS seem to just display the first of each when there are fields that can occur multiple times
00:35:41 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
00:35:57 <MattChan> ... authors are asking for more expressive power, but no RS seems to be presenting this additional data to the user
00:36:09 <MattChan> mgarrish: we tried what Laurant brought up in the issue
00:36:20 <MattChan> ... up to epub 3.1 you had to define your title type
00:36:27 <duga> q+
00:36:28 <MattChan> ... and nobody used it, so we took it out
00:36:28 <wendyreid> s/Laurant/Laurent/
00:36:51 <MattChan> ... we'd be going back in circles. I think maybe we should just move on.
00:37:03 <MattChan> ... about the refines translation, we haven't found a case for it
00:37:29 <MattChan> ... people aren't making one epub with metadata in all these different various languages
00:37:59 <wendyreid> ack duga
00:38:12 <MattChan> duga: agreed to all of that
00:38:30 <MattChan> ... unclear what an RS should even do when presented with the title in multiple different languages
00:38:51 <MattChan> wendyreid: especially if the book itself is only in one language
00:39:56 <MattChan> wendyreid: one of the concerns we had was about JP, because japanese has 3 different script sets, for lack of a better way of explaining it
00:40:24 <MattChan> ... so could an RS potentially implement a feature where the user could swap between script sets?
00:41:00 <MattChan> dauwhe: ultimately the purpose of title is so you can distinguish books within your own collection
00:41:23 <MattChan> ... not meant to be as rigorous as a metadata record at some high level aggregator level (e.g. library of congress)
00:41:41 <MattChan> ... maybe change not needed
00:41:56 <MattChan> duga: should we clarify the example then?
00:42:31 <MattChan> mgarrish: we can't get rid of multipart dc:titles at this point
00:42:44 <MattChan> ... so do we guide people towards putting everything in a single title?
00:43:03 <MattChan> dauwhe: I think our examples should reflect what will work for most people
00:43:11 <MattChan> ... so maybe we need to dial back the example
00:43:35 <MattChan> mgarrish: or say that you can do multipart titles, but that there is no guarantee that RS can use them, or guarantee as to consistency
00:44:07 <MattChan> duga: say "you can put multipart titles, but nobody knows what will happen, so you should probably only put one"
00:44:16 <wendyreid> Proposal: Close issues 1527 and 1553, add editorial note regarding the current use of dc:title in the market
00:44:16 <MattChan> wendyreid: this should probably be an editorial note
00:44:39 <wendyreid> Proposal: Close issues 1527 and 1553, add editorial note regarding the current use of dc:title in the market and edit the example
00:44:46 <duga> +1
00:44:47 <MattChan> +1
00:44:49 <mgarrish> +!
00:44:50 <wendyreid> +1
00:44:51 <toshiakikoike> +1
00:44:51 <mgarrish> +1
00:44:52 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
00:45:07 <wendyreid> Resolved: Close issues 1527 and 1553, add editorial note regarding the current use of dc:title in the market and edit the example
00:46:19 <MattChan> wendyreid: Reporting accessibility conformance (#1455)
00:46:38 <MattChan> ... there was a comment about whether the resolved solution raises i18n issues
00:46:59 <MattChan> mgarrish: we'll wait to see what the i18n folks say about it
00:47:29 <MattChan> wendyreid: ivan mentioned that not all languages use spaces, so our patterned string, which does, might be problematic
00:47:52 <MattChan> mgarrish: hopefully people are just copying and pasting this, instead of trying to type it in
00:48:15 <MattChan> wendyreid: if people are using production tools, this is just going to be inserted programmatically
00:48:33 <MattChan> ... but we need answers from i18n before we can resolve this question
00:48:43 <MattChan> Topic: AOB?
00:49:15 <MattChan> ... have a lovely evening/friday. We'll see you all next week!
00:49:31 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
00:49:31 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been MasakazuKitahara, toshiakikoike, wendyreid, MattChan, duga, marisa, mgarrish, shiestyle, dauwhe, !
00:49:33 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:49:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/04-epub-minutes.html Zakim
00:49:37 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
00:49:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
00:49:58 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make minutes public
00:49:58 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', wendyreid.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
00:50:08 <wendyreid> rrsagent, help
00:51:06 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
01:02:38 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
01:32:42 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #epub
02:43:36 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #epub
03:48:13 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #epub
03:54:01 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #epub
03:56:10 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #epub
04:08:25 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
04:18:05 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #epub
13:08:54 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
13:47:01 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #epub
14:02:05 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #epub
15:50:24 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
16:50:52 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
18:55:00 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
21:44:18 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
23:42:09 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
00:50:14 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
02:18:34 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
19:07:17 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
22:18:03 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
00:30:43 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
00:42:59 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
02:43:00 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
05:00:38 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
08:29:07 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
14:54:27 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
19:41:26 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
22:18:45 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
05:08:18 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
09:32:51 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
10:21:02 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
11:26:11 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
12:25:57 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
13:18:56 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
13:57:13 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #epub
14:01:26 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #epub
14:14:45 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
14:32:34 <ivan> ivan has joined #epub
16:02:41 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
16:35:08 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
17:40:29 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
17:50:42 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
19:00:16 <ivan> ivan has joined #epub
20:04:32 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
20:50:18 <Karen> Karen has joined #epub
21:26:49 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
21:36:23 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #epub