14:48:13 RRSAgent has joined #pwe 14:48:13 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/03/02-pwe-irc 14:48:19 Zakim has joined #pwe 14:48:22 Meeting: PWE 14:48:29 Date: 2021-03-02 14:48:32 Chair: Tzviya 14:48:46 Agenda 14:48:46 Agenda+ Ombuds Roadmap [3] 14:48:46 Agenda+ Inclusive language https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/17 - consider splitting into conversational and formal 14:48:46 Agenda+ Gathering Statistics 14:48:46 Agenda+ How can we facilitate open discussion 14:48:46 Agenda+ AOB 14:52:11 jeff has joined #pwe 14:54:09 Ralph has joined #pwe 14:55:24 rrsagent, please make record public 14:55:46 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2021Feb/0003.html 14:56:23 -> https://www.w3.org/2021/02/16-pwe-minutes previous 16-Feb 14:59:05 wendyreid has joined #pwe 15:00:35 present+ 15:00:36 present: Tzviya, WendyReid, Léonie, Ralph 15:00:42 present+ Nishad 15:00:44 present+ 15:01:00 present+ Rhiaro(Amy) 15:01:09 scribe+ 15:01:23 present+ Tobie 15:01:33 scribe+ 15:01:35 Nishad has joined #PWE 15:02:04 scribe- 15:02:09 present+ 15:02:33 present+ Barbara 15:02:39 present+ 15:03:01 agenda? 15:03:24 present+ Sheila 15:03:56 present+ Tess(Hober) 15:04:01 sheila has joined #pwe 15:04:28 regrets+ Liz 15:04:56 topic: Introductions 15:04:58 scribe+ 15:05:10 Amy: I work with Digital Bazaar on decentralized stuff 15:05:55 Barbara: I have secured Anssi to back me up here 15:06:26 Tzviya: we're maintaining both CG GitHub repos 15:06:58 -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues PWE CG issues 15:07:04 Topic: Ombuds roadmap 15:07:20 https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/wiki/PWE-Roadmap 15:07:28 i|Topic:|-> https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues IDCG issues|| 15:07:32 tzviya: judy, sheila ralph and I spent time walking through this 15:07:39 ... we welcome other input 15:07:48 ... the first items are that judy and ralph are working with the hosts to look at what is relevant right now 15:07:55 ... sheila and I are working on defining an ddocumenting the current ombuds role 15:08:00 ... and gathering information about existing ombuds programs 15:08:15 ... as the pandemic was beginning, judy and I met with someone from the IOA and gave a cursory overview 15:08:16 Judy has joined #pwe 15:08:23 ... we didn't have a chance to share the information with you 15:08:33 ... we met with the director of the IOA 15:08:39 ... we put together extensive questions for him 15:08:53 -> https://www.w3.org/2020/03/24-pwe-minutes.html#t03 2020-03-24 Ombudsperson update 15:08:54 ... it was an interview/information session to find out if working with the IOA would be a good fit and what advice they had 15:09:02 ... as the w3c will stand as a legal entity is a unique situation 15:09:07 ... international, primarily volunteer 15:09:23 ... a lot that stands out, we have our meetings mostly remote but meeting in different juristictions in person 15:09:24 ... a lot to consider 15:09:28 ... he had helpful advice 15:09:36 q+ to ask about relationship to CoC enforcement in open source communities? 15:09:44 ... it didn't seem like working with this person would be the best way to go but he did point us to resources 15:09:51 ... and ?? suggested looking at other resources 15:10:05 ... some of the advice is that the ombuds people should meet on a regular basis and have a longitudinal review to assess patterns 15:10:14 ... not about specific issues, but to detect patterns and figure out where to go from there 15:10:19 ... possibly with legal consult if necessary 15:10:29 ... he talked about how we assess credibility and maintain confidentiality, but not specific steps, some resources 15:10:41 ... and about the need for publicising what the ombuds people can and cannot do, which we haven't done historically 15:10:44 ... we'll focus on that, it's important 15:10:50 ... right now it's unclear what the ombuds people do for you 15:10:53 ack tobie 15:10:53 tobie, you wanted to ask about relationship to CoC enforcement in open source communities? 15:11:11 tobie: quick question whether you had talked to CoC enforcement in open source communities. Feels similar 15:11:16 ... in temrs of what the community looks like 15:11:28 tzviya: juri(?) is our connection there 15:11:41 tobie: the nodejs community has interesting work around moderation, I can try to find a contact person 15:11:44 s/juri(?)/Jory/ 15:12:07 Judy: I agree with what tzviya said 15:12:20 ... overall describing the role of ombuds, most orgs do it differently and more carefully than our current setup 15:12:26 [I suspect the available enforcement options in an open source community might differ in important ways from those in W3C] 15:12:31 ... good to hear him outline the selection process as well as the nuances of how confidentiality is handled 15:12:48 ... and to what extent the ombuds is a sounding board rather than a proactive role 15:12:58 ... but sometimes that an ombuds can be proactive wrt to the organisation based on the kinds of patterns that they are seeing 15:13:11 ... hence one reason why discussion among ombuds for pattern identification is a useful part of it 15:13:53 +1 to the idea of ombuds connecting regularly in order to share broad patterns. in addition to soundboarding, that can be an avenue for meaningful impact. 15:14:48 BarbH has joined #PWE 15:15:00 ... I noted that ralph had come up with other mentions of ombuds with resources from before. I think we wanted to look back to determine the access. We should try to see if we have shareable resources to give this group background 15:15:02 [some other meeting records related to outside discussions on Ombuds resources: 15:15:08 https://www.w3.org/2019/06/13-pwe-minutes#item01 15:15:08 https://www.w3.org/2019/08/08-pwe-minutes 15:15:08 https://www.w3.org/2020/06/02-pwe-minutes#t03 15:15:09 https://www.w3.org/2019/03/07-pwe-minutes 15:15:09 ]] 15:15:35 ... complimentary to getting ombuds stuff refocussed is the policies and procedures section of the pwe work, we need to do the same thing 15:15:41 ... go back over and update the roadmap parts 15:15:54 ... that's something that anyone interested could have an info session and walkthrough in an upcoming week and make sure that work is tasked 15:16:08 tzviya: agreed 15:16:20 ... we can schedule a meeting to discuss that 15:16:31 ... going to require writing some revision text, if anyone is interested 15:16:31 https://www.w3.org/Consortium/pwe/#Procedures 15:16:43 Judy: happy to do a first pass update at the chairs direction 15:17:02 tzviya: we should focus on the direction of ombuds because right now there's no information on what the ombuds do 15:17:09 ... I'd be happy for you to lead a walkthrough of what needs to happen 15:17:35 zakim, take up next 15:17:35 agendum 1 -- Ombuds Roadmap -- taken up [from 3] 15:17:42 zakim, take up next 15:17:42 agendum 1 was just opened, tzviya 15:17:47 agenda? 15:17:47 Topic: Inclusive language, issue 17 15:17:56 zakim, close item 1 15:17:56 agendum 1, Ombuds Roadmap, closed 15:17:57 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:17:57 2. Inclusive language https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/17 - consider splitting into conversational and formal [from tzviya] 15:18:03 take up item 2 15:18:06 present+ 15:18:11 tzviya: we've had this issue about inclusive language for months, it's important, but when leonie and I were talking about planning we realised it branched into possibly two issues 15:18:32 ... when it was initially opened, the initial thought was to talk about conversational issues 15:18:46 ... it kind of morphed into a discussion about things like changing our github repos so that we no longer use 'master' but 'main' instead 15:18:56 ... that's where the focus has shifted, and a number of extremely valuable resources in here 15:19:06 ... for both conversational inclusive languag,e and the formal way we document things 15:19:22 ... that was really useful for me earlier this week 15:19:29 ... Leonie and wanted to propose breaking this into two issues 15:19:35 ... and maybe creating a list of these resources 15:19:43 ... we wanted to talk about peoples thoughts about that 15:20:00 ... and about where we go from here 15:20:06 q? 15:20:16 q+ 15:20:20 +1 to all what you said. 15:20:22 q+ 15:20:22 acl tink 15:20:34 tink: I think the IETF shortlist is a really good resource 15:20:54 ... a topic like inclusive language, there is so much to cover and so much good material out there that if we point people off to read 16 different articles there's a good chance nobody will read any of them 15:21:06 https://github.com/ietf/terminology 15:21:08 ... I think borrowing the IETFs list which is short and easy to read, means a lot more people are likely to read it, which seems like a win 15:21:08 q+ to talk about Tatiana Mac's resource. 15:21:16 ack tink 15:21:20 ack BarbH 15:21:36 BarbH: a couple of high level things 15:21:45 ... this inclusion conversation is gotta be more than here is some information 15:21:50 ... it needs to be a journey 15:22:03 ... eg. it should be topics that there could be a forum on inclusive language 15:22:19 ... this month is international womens and there could be say a w3c reach out to how do we celebrate women within the w3c 15:22:33 ... all I'm trying to say is we've got to make cultural changes vs just here is a static web page 15:22:37 ... to go look 15:22:48 ... so that's my high level.. if we think inclusive language is important, what are the layers? 15:23:01 ... it could be anything from a forum or chairs reminding people that these are the standard inclusive language 15:23:13 ... trying to make sure that we move from yes this is a good idea to moving to a cultural change within the w3c 15:23:48 ... stackoverflow just completed their developer survey and on occasion you should look outside and it was shocking that for gender they did it worldwide but gender is still less than 7% of the community 15:24:03 ... we need to look at research like from tackoverflow or grace hopper and say okay what does outside in data tell us 15:24:09 I heard Barb as the need to "outreach" for cultural change..\ 15:24:19 ... lets track outside in information 15:24:20 ack tobie 15:24:20 tobie, you wanted to talk about Tatiana Mac's resource. 15:24:28 tobie: I'm for splitting the issue in two 15:24:45 ... I would encourage people on the language list to look at tatiana mac's resource linked earlier on 15:24:56 ... it would be good as an organisation to try to help out community projects rather than rebuild our own 15:25:00 ... or offer competing suggestions 15:25:05 s/tackoverflow /stackoverflow 15:25:08 ... it's an interesting and well thought out project, that is also looking at providing an api 15:25:14 ... I would like us to do mor ewith the community 15:25:20 ack Ralph 15:25:38 Ralph: thanks BarbH for referring us to toher resources. Could you share a pointer to the stackoverflow survey? 15:25:46 BarbH: I'll put that in 15:25:47 tatiana mac's selfdefined https://www.selfdefined.app/ 15:25:53 ... and the grace hopper survey 15:25:59 ... the negative with that is they only did the survey for US companies 15:26:04 ... stackoverflow did 160 companies 15:26:24 ... I'll put both links in there, there have been articles which say gender balance is still not where it needs to be 15:26:39 ... the w3c is not unique in some of the challenges that they're facing 15:27:04 tzviya: what leonie and I had talked about with this issue - we know we're not close to where we need to be - is that a lot of these links might be overwhelming 15:27:14 ... we're trying to draw a community that is perhaps slowly becoming aware 15:27:36 ... some of us are going to read all of these articles. A lot of the people we're trying to convince to sotp using terms that are offensive are not going to read through most of these articles 15:27:45 ... a resource like tatiana mac's selfdefined I think is amazing 15:27:53 q+ 15:28:05 ... someone who might be offended by being told they have to change all of their github repo branch names or the way they speak is going to find that overwhelming 15:28:14 ... so the IETF put together a list of 10 terms that are a starting point 15:28:18 ... terms we come across regularly in tech 15:28:21 ... it's a great starting point 15:28:23 ... it exists already 15:28:29 q+ re IETF 15:28:30 q+ 15:28:30 ... it's just to dip peoples toes in 15:28:45 ... we're not saying lets get rid of these. if you want to learn more, here's where to go. maybe that's how we start to pull the community along 15:28:54 ... and that can ehlp us break it into the two issues of conversational and technical 15:29:00 ack Judy 15:29:03 ... and create a resource to help improv ethe way you speak and code to become more inclusive 15:29:15 Judy: some of the approach I've been advocating earlier some people may have found annoying 15:29:26 ... when you look at try to change cultures and systems I don't thin kone can ever expect having a list of resources to do the job 15:29:43 ... that's one reason I have been proposing clusters of actions such as gathering relevant resources, annotating them for relevance to the organisation and context 15:29:59 ... offering opportunities to discuss them to give people who do care enough to wade in an opportunity to think about it together an dhow to talk with others in the community 15:30:04 ... and then finding ways to promote it 15:30:07 ... maybe certain calendar triggers 15:30:21 ... some things to promote for people interested 15:30:27 q+ 15:30:32 ... but unless there's a thought through package of activities we may not get much result from the best list of resources 15:30:38 ... I want to encourage us to plan how we try to change 15:30:38 ack ws 15:30:38 wseltzer, you wanted to discuss IETF 15:30:47 wseltzer: a note around the ietf resource page 15:30:54 ... there is ongoing and unfortunately disputed efforts in the ietf 15:31:03 ... be careful about how much we depend on those resources as outcomes 15:31:06 Stack Overflow - Survey of 65,000 software developers from 186 countries around the world - https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020 15:31:08 ack wendyreid 15:31:18 wendyreid: I agree with what BarbH is saying, and the monthly idea might be a good one 15:31:33 ... rakuten recently every month focus on a different, try to observe every different cultural or group history month 15:31:59 ... every month they have a list of events, resources, newsletters with different.. film screenings, a book or articles, we get almost weekly emails about these things 15:32:03 ... a really interesting program 15:32:08 ... partially runs by comms and our employee resource groups 15:32:33 ... something very similar, we can't do as extensive stuff because it's mostly going to be us.. but an interesting way to nudge people along and teach people things they might not have been exposed to otherwise 15:32:54 ... also worth .. I like the list from ietf, but incorporating it into things like chairs training, getting chairs on board so they can guide their groups 15:33:03 ... to help build up the culture bit by bit 15:33:10 ... the more education we can do in subtle ways will be the best approach 15:33:13 q+ to resolve what to do next 15:33:16 ... we can't change everyone but we can help educate people bit by bit 15:33:19 ack Jemma 15:33:35 +1 wendy. love the idea of trainings, preferably regularly occurring 15:33:35 scribe+ 15:33:46 Jemma: I agree with Barb and tobie's suggestions 15:33:51 ... particularly work on outreach 15:34:04 ... we can add another branch, which would be outreach 15:34:14 ... working on the outside would also bring about cultural change 15:34:26 ack me 15:34:26 tzviya, you wanted to resolve what to do next 15:34:39 tzviya: I am hearing great demand for training 15:34:43 tzviya: I am hearing great demand for training 15:34:44 ... I'm not going to focus on that today 15:35:03 ... If you have the capacity to provide training or resources available and can provide information please be in touch 15:35:16 ... to what we do with this issue - the proposal was to break this down into smaller issues 15:35:18 agenda? 15:35:33 ... we have the how to create technical work standards github issues that have more respectful language 15:35:38 ... and the aspect of conversational, and cultural shift 15:35:40 ... and a collection of resources 15:35:44 ... breaking it down into 3 things 15:35:49 ... is it okay to break it into those 3? 15:36:09 ... wendy s raised the point that leaning on ietf isn't the best idea because maybe it isn't stable, but maybe there's something else that isn't as overwhelming 15:36:09 q+ cultural shift 15:36:16 ack Jemma 15:36:20 s/ietf/ietf document/ 15:36:23 ... I'm hearing that perhaps we do need to overwhelm the community and introduce this with training 15:36:33 Jemma: curious about how would you define success of cultural shift? 15:36:43 tzviya: it's too big a question to answer right now 15:36:44 ... I don't know 15:36:49 ... it's a great question to ask 15:37:04 tzviya: I'm gonig to break this into 3 issues 15:37:07 Topic: Gathering statistics 15:37:11 zakim, take up next 15:37:11 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, tzviya 15:37:16 ack Jemma 15:37:24 ack cu 15:37:26 tink: this conversation dates back to the origins of the inclusiion and diversity cg back when it was the women at w3c cg briefly 15:37:29 ... in our very first meeting at tpac 15:37:35 ack shi 15:37:41 zakim, take up next 15:37:41 agendum 3 -- Gathering Statistics -- taken up [from tzviya] 15:37:45 ... ?? at the time made a point that if we want to understand how far we've come we need to understand our current situation 15:37:52 ... in terms of diversity we recognise certain things 15:38:13 ... we know we have a majority of white faces and not people of colour or from other ethnic backgrounds, far more able bodied people than people with disabilities 15:38:22 ... to really measure any degree of pgoress we need to have something to compare ourselves against 15:38:26 ... there was a lot of support for that idea 15:38:31 s/??/Nell Waliczek 15:38:34 Outside In - AnitaB.org published Top Companies for Women Technologist – 2020 Key findings and insights. https://anitab.org/research-and-impact/top-companies/2020-results/ 15:38:39 ... the initial suggestion was that really the only way we've really got to find out our current status quo is to ask people to share information 15:38:49 ... about who they are, where they come from, all those other characteristics we're trying to improve in temrs of diversity 15:38:56 ... it got pushback from one person and brought the conversation to a halt 15:39:04 ... as a CG here we haven't pursued the conversation since then 15:39:11 ... I have spent a lot of time working with orgs to do this very thing 15:39:26 ... and it always come back to the idea of some form of survey with all the personal data and privacy questions necessary in place 15:39:27 q+ to share OpenJSF's discussion on the topic. 15:39:36 ... but it comes down to asking people to tell us about themselves so we can udnerstand how bad our situation is 15:39:44 ... so in the years ahead if we were to run it again we can see if we've made measurable progress 15:39:49 ... we wanted to bring that idea back to this merged cg 15:40:03 ... lots of people who weren't involved in the early part of the conversation to get your sense of if this is something we should do 15:40:12 ... if the answer is yes, how do we go about doing that? 15:40:23 ... is some kind of privacy protected survey the right way, are there other ways, reasons for and against any of these things 15:40:26 + q 15:40:29 ... an open conversation to draw on your ideas 15:40:31 ack tobie 15:40:31 tobie, you wanted to share OpenJSF's discussion on the topic. 15:40:39 q+ BarbH 15:40:45 tobie: the openjs foundation is having exactly the same conversation on this topic 15:40:49 ... weve been talking about this for a couple of weeks 15:40:59 ... bumping on the actual cost and privacy issues around doing a survye like this 15:41:06 ... I think we're at the point we'd welcome any kind of knowledge in this area 15:41:16 ack BarbH 15:41:16 ... there might be opportunities to work on a survey we could run across organisations 15:41:21 BarbH: I second that 15:41:45 ... on the survey, is to include it .. this is what I liked about stackoverflow, they weren't doing an inclusion and diversity survye, they were doing a developer survey and also asked the question gender 15:41:53 ... is there any w3c surveys? at one point there was a mozilla survey that w3c was working on 15:42:05 ... I guess on a high level if we want to measure we should just include measuring as part of the other surveying activity 15:42:19 ... if you hyperfocus on inclusion and trying to capture different demographics that's going to be scary to anybody 15:42:24 q+ 15:42:26 ... include it with your existing survey efforts 15:42:32 ack tink 15:42:47 tink: I really like Barb's idea 15:42:48 s/survye/survey/G 15:43:07 ... I found myself thinking it'd be really interesting to know how many frontend devs, how many browser engineers, how many in education, other information 15:43:11 +1 15:43:11 ... great idea to wrap it into something broader 15:43:19 ... and the almost certain outcome of encouraging more people to complete the survey 15:43:22 +1 15:43:23 tzviya: a great idea 15:43:25 +1 15:43:30 ... here's a question... anybody have experience writing surveys? 15:43:36 q+ to say that we've based our question on StackOverflow's 15:43:39 ... many of us have been the victims of terrible surveys 15:43:43 q+ 15:43:43 tink: yes, some over the years 15:43:50 ... I know there are other people at w3c who have spent more time 15:44:01 ... and do a lot of user research 15:44:03 ... I could talk to them 15:44:10 q+ to describe previous experience conducting surveys and not to volunteer 15:44:11 ... there are experienced people we could tap up for a bit of help 15:44:15 ack tobie 15:44:15 tobie, you wanted to say that we've based our question on StackOverflow's 15:44:39 tobie: we're actually basing ours in openjs on stackoverflow as a base, so that might be something we can share 15:44:45 ... not for the broader set of questions 15:44:51 tzviya: that's useful 15:44:58 ack Judy 15:44:58 Judy, you wanted to describe previous experience conducting surveys and not to volunteer 15:44:59 ... I support the idea, it would be helpful if w3c and openjs could work together 15:45:39 Judy: I have experience conducting surveys and i had the opportunity to work with a professional survey company and found it amazing because they were able to point out that a lot of times when you ask a certain question you're amost guaranteeing you'll ge different information than you think you're getting unless you're really careufl how it's phrased 15:45:46 ... surveying demographic information is probably the hardest kind of survey to do 15:46:01 ... unless there's a chance that w3c might put professional resource sinto it, I subscribe to tobie's suggestion to leverage cooperation with other orgs to get something good 15:46:09 ... it helps to be really thoughtful and to second guess and even dry run your surveys 15:46:17 ... have people tell you what thye think is being asked 15:46:33 tzviya: our next up I'm hoping is that maybe tobie will be able to report back about the possibility of working with openjs? in two weeks 15:46:43 ... tobie if you think it would be helpful for one of us to join your meeting? 15:46:59 tobie: I can report back in two weeks, and let you know if we're having a specific call on this topic and email you 15:47:09 zakim, take up next 15:47:09 agendum 4 -- How can we facilitate open discussion -- taken up [from tzviya] 15:47:18 Topic: how can we facilitate open discussion 15:47:34 tzviya: another topic was that this group was intended to be an open forum for discussion which we know works really well when we're in person 15:47:40 ... you're at tpac, you set aside an hour 15:47:56 ... it can be a place where you can discuss things that didn't go as planned, a place to talk about potential cepc violations 15:48:17 ... a place where you can say "I can't believe that there are so many people with disabilities and yet it sstill so difficult to do xyz" ... etc 15:48:24 ... a place where people ahve some common ground and have a place to discuss 15:48:28 ... and a place for listening 15:48:33 ... inclusiveness is a sense of belonging 15:48:38 ... asense of empathy when someone is listening to you 15:48:41 ... it's hard to do remotely 15:48:50 ... we want to brainstorm how we can create something where we have a place to go to talk to each other 15:48:55 ... creating breakout rooms? 15:48:58 ... is it possible or desired? 15:49:08 ... leonie and I do this, we have a post meeting chat 15:49:18 ... a lot of us have friends, but is there some way thsi group can act as that forum as discussion? 15:49:19 ack rhiaro 15:49:22 ack Ralph 15:49:26 Ralph: that's really really important 15:49:34 ... we've been donig this remote stuff for almost a year 15:49:38 ... some colleagues for longer 15:49:45 ... I wonder if your assertion that we can't do it remotely, how accurate that is now 15:49:54 ... we're all exhausted by seeing each other screent o screen only but this is a really important topic 15:50:08 ... I wonder if it's true that those who would wish to participate in such a chat session really feel it can't be done using this technology 15:50:21 q+ 15:50:24 tzviya: a large part of what creates the discussion is that these meetings are unminuted 15:50:26 q- 15:50:27 ... wec ould certainly do that 15:50:32 ... a sense of having a safe space to talk 15:50:36 ... a lot of people here I've never met in person 15:50:52 q+ 15:50:53 Ralph: those who participate definitely have to agree on what if anything escapes the conversation 15:51:01 ack Judy 15:51:04 q+ 15:51:15 q+ Judy 15:51:22 ack hober 15:51:32 hober: I love the idea of this group being an open space where people can come in and frankly talk about their experiences and vent and all of that stuff 15:51:37 ... maybe it's constructive, maybe it's just cathartic 15:51:42 ... the current group though is not well suited for that 15:52:00 ... looking at the sea of rectangles on my screen I see a number of people who are in intimidating leadership positions, peolpe in the AB, the CEO.. people in positions of power 15:52:10 ... that's exactly not the room that i want to go to to be frank and let things out.. 15:52:23 ... I feel like that while clearly this group should want such a space, this group currently is not that space 15:52:23 +1 15:52:28 tzviya: good point 15:52:32 ack Judy 15:52:55 Judy: there's been a pattern of offline comments I'll generalise... I've talked with different people in the w3c community about the gropu and people have approached me to talk about it 15:53:10 ... one pattern of comment I was hearing from a few different people is that people are interested in the work of the group and would be interested in having a safe discussion space 15:53:36 ... but they feel like even though they have an identity that is marginalised in a certain way maybe it's not on topoic so they don't feel they can not be judged or feel awkward for their comments 15:53:47 ... I have no idea what the right approach is 15:54:08 ... it could be something buried in some of the original ideas that were posted, including for this group to offer discussion space, but not necessarily expect that it's in this cg where that can best happen 15:54:19 ... but try to create discussion fora that would be expicitly set up as safer discussion spaces for some topics 15:54:38 ... for people who are interested in promoting inclusive and diversity but at an earlier phase of talking out loud about it 15:54:43 tzviya: I'd love to hear more about that 15:55:00 ... It's very difficult to just say lets having a meeting to talk about venting and figure out who the right mix of people is 15:55:11 ... on idea was maybe having breakout rooms so it's smaller 15:55:19 ... I've experiemnted a bit, you can have 4 or 5 people 15:55:25 ... you have to get lucky with who you're in the room with 15:55:37 +q 15:55:49 +q 15:55:54 ... you don't necessarily want the CEO in the room.. it might be we don't have anybody from the team in the discusion 15:56:09 ... perhaps we want to give some thought to how we can plan this.. perhaps we want unminuted discussions.. people don't need to tell us what they want to talk about 15:56:11 ack BarbH 15:56:41 BarbH: on the cultural change, I have to shout out to Tess, Tess gave a detailed report on cultural changes last august 15:56:46 ... it did tlak about how you can measure cultural changes 15:56:53 ... I ended up sending it to a bunch of people 15:57:18 ... one thing that has worked in some forums I've been involved in is that a topic is brought up and then people come in with their perspective 15:57:35 ... if there is a topic on inclusive language then people can jump into the forum and make it a safe zone 15:57:51 ... there could be topics around something as simple as AI and its impact on the ecosystem and diversity in general 15:57:58 ... you throw out a topic and then people come in and they can express their feelings 15:58:07 ... key is to have the right moderator who can capture the sentiments 15:58:14 ... and steer 15:58:24 ... but just to throw out hey inclusion and diversity... you need to frame it with a topic 15:58:50 hober: I'm pretty sure it wasn't me.. 15:58:54 BarbH: I'll put it in the chat 15:59:05 ... it impacted me so much 15:59:15 Topic: AOB 15:59:40 tzviya: thanks everybody 16:00:11 zakim, end meeting 16:00:12 As of this point the attendees have been Tzviya, WendyReid, Léonie, Ralph, Nishad, Jemma, Rhiaro(Amy), Tobie, jeff, Barbara, wseltzer, Sheila, Tess(Hober), hober, q 16:00:15 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:00:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/03/02-pwe-minutes.html Zakim 16:00:17 I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:00:22 Zakim has left #pwe 16:04:35 Driving Cultural Change - Masculine Defaults: Identifying and Mitigating Hidden Cultural Biases (August 2020) https://depts.washington.edu/sibl/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Cheryan-Markus-2020-Psychological-Review.pdf