18:35:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver
18:35:15 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/02/26-silver-irc
18:35:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
18:35:18 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
18:35:36 <jeanne> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
18:35:36 <jeanne> present:
18:35:36 <jeanne> chair: Shawn, jeanne
18:35:36 <jeanne> present+
18:35:37 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
18:35:37 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
18:35:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/26-silver-minutes.html jeanne
18:35:37 <jeanne> q?
18:35:37 <Zakim> agenda cleared
18:35:47 <jeanne> agenda+ comments on FPWD close today
18:35:47 <jeanne> agenda+ any updates from subgroups on comment processing?
18:35:47 <jeanne> agenda+ how to incorporate WCAG2 AAA success criteria
18:37:38 <jeanne> regrets+ Todd, Sarah, Bruce
18:50:27 <sajkaj> sajkaj has joined #silver
18:51:23 <ChrisLoiselle> ChrisLoiselle has joined #silver
18:51:36 <ChrisLoiselle> present+
18:51:55 <sajkaj> zakim, who's here?
18:51:55 <Zakim> Present: jeanne, ChrisLoiselle
18:51:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisLoiselle, sajkaj, RRSAgent, jeanne, MichaelC, Rachael, Zakim, jcraig, alastairc, joconnor, AWK
18:52:15 <sajkaj> present+
18:55:57 <Fazio> Fazio has joined #silver
18:56:01 <CharlesHall> CharlesHall has joined #silver
18:57:57 <Rachael> present+
18:58:46 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #silver
18:58:50 <Francis_Storr> present+
18:59:58 <Lauriat> Lauriat has joined #silver
19:00:16 <Wilco> Wilco has joined #silver
19:00:28 <KimD> KimD has joined #silver
19:00:37 <KimD> Present+
19:00:55 <CharlesHall> present+
19:01:08 <CharlesHall> multitasking for a few minutes
19:01:12 <JF> JF has joined #silver
19:01:14 <Lauriat> Present+
19:01:15 <sajkaj> scribe: sajkaj
19:01:16 <JF> present+
19:01:16 <jeanne> zakim, take up item 1
19:01:16 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- comments on FPWD close today -- taken up [from jeanne]
19:01:31 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #silver
19:01:31 <Wilco> present+
19:01:36 <Fazio> present+
19:01:55 <CharlesHall> some of the github issues are coming from my colleagues
19:01:55 <sajkaj> js: Notes that today is the last day for FPWD comments, and they're coming in quickly!
19:02:08 <Rachael> Does that include the ones that came in via email?
19:02:43 <Chuck> q+
19:03:03 <jennifer_strickland> jennifer_strickland has joined #silver
19:03:06 <Chuck> ack Ch
19:03:06 <jennifer_strickland> present+
19:03:13 <sajkaj> ca: Notes that Oracle will comment--but someone not involved in W3C otherwise
19:03:22 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
19:03:22 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- any updates from subgroups on comment processing? -- taken up [from jeanne]
19:04:25 <Chuck> janina:  Question came up yesterday, we talked about the 2 comments we were assigned.  We did not get to a resolution on them.  We do have next steps for one of htem.
19:04:33 <Chuck> s /htem/them/
19:04:56 <Chuck> janina:  Do we have an ETA for when we would like to come to a resolution on them?  Should we plan on a week, a month, what is preferred?
19:05:11 <Chuck> jeanne:  We are asking that it be two weeks, or ask for an extension.
19:05:25 <Chuck> jeanne:  maybe you need more info, or maybe you need to write up a use case.
19:05:44 <Chuck> jeanne:  I think it would depend on how much time to write up the use case.  Getting more info may be out of your control.
19:05:50 <Chuck> janina:  That's what we want for one of them.
19:06:08 <Chuck> janina:  The other one we aren't quite ready to have an agreement in the group on how to respond.  Still kicking around.
19:06:19 <Chuck> janina:  That's our first week.
19:06:30 <laura> laura has joined #silver
19:06:34 <Chuck> janina:  If we need after next Thursday we'll ask for it next week.
19:06:54 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
19:07:05 <Chuck> present+
19:07:34 <sajkaj> js: Asks whether visual contrast has discussed assigned comments?
19:10:04 <sajkaj> ChrisLoiselle: Still processing
19:10:14 <sajkaj> js: were any assigned to other groups?
19:10:17 <sajkaj> ChrisLoiselle: no
19:10:56 <sajkaj> js: Prefer that other folks not add labels
19:11:13 <Jemma> Jemma has joined #silver
19:11:35 <Jemma> agenda?
19:11:42 <Jemma> present+
19:11:43 <Chuck> janina:  What does green and purple stand for?
19:12:06 <sajkaj> js: changing green to purple is OK; green is hand off to subgroup; and purple is process of closing
19:12:07 <ChrisLoiselle> need to step away, be right back.
19:12:09 <JF> "Color is not used as the only visual means of conveying information, indicating an action, prompting a response, or distinguishing a visual element."
19:12:44 <Chuck> janina:  yes, I wanted to get the "more than colors" into the minutes.
19:12:48 <Melanie> Melanie has joined #silver
19:12:58 <Chuck> jeanne:  Green is "incoming", purple is "closing"
19:13:12 <CharlesHall> q+
19:13:56 <sajkaj> ch: Available to comment on funct needs/categories, but need to have them assigned
19:14:20 <sajkaj> js: Check subgroup wiki for the github link
19:14:24 <jeanne>  https://github.com/w3c/silver/labels/section%3A%20Functional%20Need
19:15:30 <Jan> Jan has joined #silver
19:15:37 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
19:15:37 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, jeanne
19:15:38 <sajkaj> js: Happy to assign individuals if desired
19:15:44 <Chuck> q?
19:15:44 <Wilco> q+
19:15:44 <jeanne> ack char
19:15:54 <sajkaj> ack wil
19:16:08 <sajkaj> wilco: Asks about documentation on issue process
19:16:17 <sajkaj> js: Yes, on wiki --
19:16:20 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Procedure_for_Processing_Comments
19:16:45 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
19:16:45 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- how to incorporate WCAG2 AAA success criteria -- taken up [from jeanne]
19:17:16 <sajkaj> js: Recalls recent conversations of what constitutes bronze/silver/gold
19:17:39 <sajkaj> js: how to handle 2.x AAA SC?
19:17:46 <jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ofQXzR6KxfQIXGQWwfw3VfkDkIHamyWxk_uCITxe3JQ/
19:18:27 <sajkaj> js: Has been handled differently by different groups; so we should start with overview of how has been handled so far
19:18:40 <Fazio> q+
19:19:18 <sajkaj> df: Didn't we say we weren't going to be backward compatible?
19:19:20 <Chuck> ack faz
19:19:23 <sajkaj> js: Good question!
19:19:43 <sajkaj> js: We're not; but 2.x does have good guidance that we want to bring forward
19:20:04 <JF> Q+ to add ACT Rules format and all of the rules already authored for 2.x
19:20:23 <sajkaj> js: So the question is how to bring the value of AAA into 3
19:20:30 <sajkaj> df: Are we also doing AA and A?
19:21:17 <sajkaj> js: Recalls migration discussion from some years hence
19:21:35 <sajkaj> js: how we handle can vary
19:22:04 <Lauriat> q+ to mention that the outline essentially used the A, AA, AAA related guidance essentially goes into notes for writing tests & scoring
19:22:33 <jeanne> ack JF
19:22:33 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to add ACT Rules format and all of the rules already authored for 2.x
19:22:47 <sajkaj> jf: We also said we'd use ACT rules format when possible
19:23:05 <Wilco> +1
19:23:13 <sajkaj> jf: believe as testable statements
19:23:22 <sajkaj> js: sure, but not directly related to AAA
19:23:35 <sajkaj> jf: How many AAA in ACT?
19:23:38 <sajkaj> wilco: a few
19:23:57 <jeanne> ack laur
19:23:57 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to mention that the outline essentially used the A, AA, AAA related guidance essentially goes into notes for writing tests & scoring
19:24:27 <Wilco> q+
19:24:28 <sajkaj> sl: re a/aa/aaa -- look at captions
19:24:47 <sajkaj> sl: as notes to help people write scoring, testing
19:25:05 <sajkaj> sl: to have different tests result in different scores
19:25:10 <jeanne>  MIgration Map <- https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit
19:26:26 <sajkaj> js: Considering these from the bronze/silver/gold construct perspective
19:26:39 <JF> Color contrast @ 4.5:1 = bronze, @ 7:1 = silver?
19:26:55 <sajkaj> js: But we've not had a detailed discussion of the AAA's
19:27:02 <Lauriat> q+ to bring up a meta comment (of sorts) for the four options in the doc
19:27:05 <AngelaAccessForAll> AngelaAccessForAll has joined #silver
19:27:12 <AngelaAccessForAll> present+
19:27:34 <sajkaj> js: suggest we look first at what we have; then at what we could have
19:28:09 <sajkaj> wilco: Noting some orgs have certain key pages that require AAA; so it's not true that AAA is not used
19:28:14 <Lauriat> +1 to Wilco, I do see usage of AAA guidance
19:28:27 <JF> +1 to Wilco
19:29:00 <sajkaj> wilco: Also personally not convinced by putting AA at bronze; think we need to help small orgs more
19:29:00 <Fazio> q+
19:29:09 <Lauriat> ack Wilco
19:29:25 <Fazio> I'm hoping to use maturity modelling for that
19:29:28 <sajkaj> js: Asks to have that as a github issue, please
19:30:22 <Chuck> ack lau
19:30:22 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to bring up a meta comment (of sorts) for the four options in the doc
19:30:25 <Chuck> ack faz
19:31:20 <sajkaj> js: key points are in fpwd
19:31:37 <sajkaj> js: visual contrast slightly different ...
19:34:50 <sajkaj> js: notes that higher score to closed captions -- a potential approach
19:35:38 <sajkaj> js: that would imply raising the minimum to pass
19:36:21 <sajkaj> q+
19:36:53 <JF> msg/ Chuck words that rhyme with mustard truck...
19:37:23 <JF> s/msg/ Chuck words that rhyme with mustard truck.../
19:37:57 <Chuck> janina:  Research questions has been delving into the importance of how closely how in sync things are, like captions, in with the other media.
19:38:15 <Chuck> janina:  We may want to include that (pick it up) when migrating.  May add more computation into the mix.
19:38:22 <Chuck> Jeanne:  Is that "higher points"?
19:38:35 <Wilco> q+
19:38:46 <Lauriat> ack sajkaj
19:38:48 <Chuck> janina:  yes, it makes a big difference in comprehension.  It's achievable in asynch media.  A bit more of an issue in real time.  Depends on how fast you type.
19:39:21 <Chuck> janina:  In Belgium, the news is delayed so the captions can be synced.  We have a wiki that's 50% or 60% close to being ready.
19:39:35 <JF> +1  CART transcription is usually around 80%-85% accurate
19:39:41 <Chuck> janina:  We never talked about in wcag is the need to have audio and visual synced within some tolerances.
19:39:54 <Fazio> +1
19:39:57 <Chuck> janina:  People that may not have disabilities actually become "disabled" if the sync is off enough.
19:40:03 <Jemma> q+
19:40:04 <Fazio> q+
19:40:10 <Chuck> jeanne:  When ready to present, could you let Shawn and I know?
19:40:19 <Chuck> janina:  Yes.  I think it's great to bring sooner.
19:40:27 <JF> Q+ to also note the accuracy concern
19:40:33 <Lauriat> +1 to wanting to know more, thank you!
19:40:35 <Lauriat> ack Wilco
19:40:37 <jeanne> ack wilco
19:40:42 <sajkaj> wilco: wonders about changing the scale?
19:41:20 <sajkaj> wilco: eg. doing some of the AAA might absolve some AA
19:41:32 <sajkaj> js: will need to test when we get more guidelines written
19:41:52 <jeanne> ack Jemma
19:42:22 <sajkaj> Jemma: asks how aCT will connect for 3.0?
19:42:44 <Rachael> There are a few approaches. If kept in the same scale, then the extra point only occurs if the previous points are reached. Then the passing number is adjusted. The need to pass within each functional need category ensures the outcomes balance. If the AAA is in a different level or test set then the risk is mitigated that way
19:42:50 <sajkaj> s/0/0 and ARIA/
19:43:01 <sajkaj> js: not current topic; but at method level
19:43:08 <jeanne> ack Faz
19:44:31 <Chuck> janina:  ...fortunately we have the resolution availble, we can sync to the milisecond.  It's "pay more attention content developers".
19:44:39 <Chuck> janina:  Time text wg.
19:44:50 <jeanne> ack JF
19:44:50 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to also note the accuracy concern
19:45:23 <sajkaj> jf: want also to note that CART struggles to get much more than 85% accuracy
19:45:41 <Lauriat> +1 to moving beyond AA vs. AAA and getting more well-rounded tests
19:45:45 <sajkaj> jf: Notes we don't have a way to measure accuracy and maybe we should
19:47:04 <sajkaj> js: fpwd has examples of how we might include AAA mixed in with A/AA and new guidelines; we include critical errors, too
19:48:01 <sajkaj> js: notes the other approach as with visual contrast -- treat minimally
19:48:21 <sajkaj> js: option 3 would be to include in bronze, but give higher scoring for AAA\
19:48:48 <sajkaj> js: 4th option would be to move AAA to a WCAG 3 silver
19:48:57 <Fazio> Kinda feels like we're patting people on the head when it should just be standard
19:49:07 <sajkaj> jf: doing better should get better score
19:49:18 <sajkaj> jf: reward going above the minimum
19:49:20 <Lauriat> q+ to try rephrasing option 4 to check understanding
19:49:38 <jeanne> ack Laur
19:49:38 <Zakim> Lauriat, you wanted to try rephrasing option 4 to check understanding
19:50:13 <sajkaj> sl: all guidance on same level; test results score would determine level
19:50:28 <Chuck> q+ to ask that is not how i interpreted it
19:50:45 <jeanne> SL: All guidance is on the same level. The test results that would mean that today’s AAA would result in a score at the Silver level (as opposed to the Bronze level)
19:51:20 <sajkaj> sl: yes, that was my interpretation
19:51:33 <sajkaj> jf: agrees
19:51:45 <Fazio> Triple A across functional needs or ad hoc?
19:52:17 <Lauriat> ack Chuck
19:52:17 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask that is not how i interpreted it
19:52:35 <sajkaj> ca: heard it a bit different ...
19:52:53 <sajkaj> ca: if you meet X you might get higher by also doing y
19:53:36 <sajkaj> sl: think it's two different topics; how we designate; then how test results are scored
19:53:39 <Fazio> q+
19:54:32 <JF> Another example: (2.2.2) Pause, Stop, Hide "morphs" to (2.2.4) Interruptions
19:54:43 <sajkaj> js: in all cases AAA gives more points -- if that's not clear, we need to make it clear
19:55:04 <Lauriat> ack Fazio
19:56:09 <sajkaj> js: whether or not are critical errors determines whether mandatory or optional
19:57:20 <Jemma> Q+
19:57:21 <sajkaj> sl: was confused between doing the math vs how we do the migration
19:57:25 <Chuck> q+ to ask that we need to do the math later, there are many ways to implement "more points"
19:57:57 <Melanie> q+
19:58:09 <jeanne> ack Jemma
19:58:28 <sajkaj> js: notes that much COGA has  been AAA; so we need to consider how to integrate for equal treatment of disabilities
19:58:44 <sajkaj> jema: asks about aCT?
19:58:58 <sajkaj> js: Only a few ACT for AAA; so it can't be just ACT
19:59:07 <jeanne> ack Melanie
19:59:08 <Chuck> ack Ch
19:59:08 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask that we need to do the math later, there are many ways to implement "more points"
19:59:53 <sajkaj> Melanie: recalls slide deck that AAA would be bonus and not penalize if not accomplished; thought AAA would not be critical errors
20:01:09 <sajkaj> js: Unfortunately, some things didn't make it into the fpwd for various process reasons; I remember the question and wanted to get back there; my mistake!
20:01:45 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
20:01:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/26-silver-minutes.html jeanne
20:01:51 <KimD> KimD has left #silver
20:34:06 <sajkaj> zakim, bye
20:34:06 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been jeanne, ChrisLoiselle, sajkaj, Rachael, Francis_Storr, KimD, CharlesHall, Lauriat, JF, Wilco, Fazio, jennifer_strickland,
20:34:06 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver
20:34:09 <Zakim> ... Laura_Carlson, Chuck, Jemma, AngelaAccessForAll
20:34:11 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make minutes
20:34:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/26-silver-minutes.html sajkaj
20:34:21 <sajkaj> rrsagent, bye
20:34:21 <RRSAgent> I see no action items