15:07:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-td
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15:07:50 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
15:09:12 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-td
15:09:14 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Koster, Michael_McCool
15:09:23 <kaz> present+ Philipp_Blum
15:11:01 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
15:11:08 <dape> scribe: dape
15:11:09 <kaz> chair: Sebastian
15:12:12 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:12:53 <dape> TOPIC: Minutes Approval
15:13:04 <dape> --> https://www.w3.org/2021/02/10-wot-td-minutes.html
15:14:27 <dape> SK: talked about OPC UA
15:14:50 <dape> ... PRs w.r.t. security
15:15:09 <dape> ... placeholder concept
15:15:24 <kaz> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#Feb_17.2C_2021
15:15:33 <dape> ... ThingModel discussions
15:16:23 <dape> ... actions vs property discussions
15:17:18 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1044
15:17:39 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
15:18:25 <dape> SK: Any objections?
15:18:42 <dape> --> none --> minutes approved
15:18:55 <kaz> s/1044/1044 issue 1044 - Adding term to indicate a stream of data/
15:18:56 <dape> TOPIC: Collecting topics for vF2F
15:19:32 <citrullin> q+
15:19:33 <dape> SK: I put some topics already liek ThingModel
15:19:49 <dape> s/liek/like
15:20:47 <dape> PB: w.r.t ThingModel, using multiple TMs
15:21:04 <dape> ... merging seems tricky?
15:21:19 <dape> SK: at the moment TD can only refer to *one* TM
15:21:38 <mjk> q?
15:21:43 <mjk> q+
15:22:17 <dape> PB: Extending: e.g., "base" sensor + TM for X and Y
15:22:28 <dape> MK: I have similar use case also
15:22:31 <McCool> q+
15:22:43 <kaz> ack cit
15:22:46 <kaz> ack mjk
15:23:11 <dape> ... iotschema, light bulb having several capabilities
15:23:16 <kaz> q+
15:23:17 <McCool> https://github.com/w3c/wot-testing/blob/main/events/2021.03.Online/scenarios/digitaltwin.md
15:23:18 <mjk> ack mjk
15:23:22 <kaz> ack mc
15:23:35 <kaz> kaz: +1 with McCool
15:23:36 <dape> MMC: Wrote this up for Vf2F scenario, see link above
15:23:47 <kaz> s/kaz: +1 with McCool//
15:23:48 <kaz> kaz: +1 with McCool
15:24:09 <dape> MK: separate TMs seem to be useful
15:24:18 <kaz> s/Vf2F/vF2F/
15:24:56 <dape> MMC/SK: discussing outcome of these topics from the PlugFest
15:25:36 <McCool> s/Vf2F/plugfest/
15:25:47 <dape> SK: Agree. Experience in the area of TMs seem important.
15:26:04 <dape> kaz: should also look into discovery topic?
15:26:30 <dape> MMC: in discovery we do not look into TM right now. Not sure if we should though
15:27:13 <dape> ... being TM in directory as well
15:27:33 <dape> MK: topics of overriding
15:27:47 <dape> SK: How much time do we have for TD task force?
15:28:11 <kaz> s/should also look into discovery topic?/agree we should think about concrete scenario for plugfest. also if possible we should think about how to deal with Thing Model at the discovery phase./
15:28:12 <dape> MMC: 3-4 hours for TD?
15:30:45 <dape> SK: ThingModel seems to be the most important TD topic for the upcoming F2F
15:31:08 <dape> .. let's continue discussing the F2F topics next week
15:31:16 <dape> TOPIC: WoT Bindings
15:31:35 <dape> CA: I commited Modbus changes
15:31:51 <sebastian> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/109
15:32:20 <dape> CA: I fixed renderer script
15:32:54 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
15:32:55 <dape> ... I also proposed ModBus document
15:33:18 <kaz> s/109/wot-binding-templates 109 - Refining Modbus protocol binding/
15:33:40 <dape> ... followed TD pattern: HTML enhanced by SPARQL queries
15:35:31 <dape> <CA sharing his screen>
15:36:07 <dape> CA: sharing rendered Modbus document
15:36:46 <dape> ... rendering is still not complete ... eg. missing whether something is optional
15:36:59 <dape> SK: You might need SHACL file for doing that
15:37:18 <dape> CA: I also added default Modbus mappings
15:37:34 <dape> ... readproperty to modbus fuction
15:38:49 <dape> ... I would like to get feedback whether the document structure makes sense
15:39:00 <dape> SK: Looks good.
15:39:13 <dape> ... I am missing TD examples
15:39:22 <dape> CA: Agree
15:40:21 <dape> MK: ontology might be a standalone document
15:40:34 <dape> .. could be used in other areas as well
15:41:24 <dape> ... practical examples make sense also
15:42:00 <dape> CA: having various documents makes linking more problematic
15:42:28 <dape> ... i think the current proposal could be a template for future bindings
15:43:28 <dape> SK: I imaged a self-contained document for Modbus ... forgot about ontology file
15:43:39 <mjk> q?
15:43:49 <dape> s/imaged/imagined
15:43:54 <kaz> q-
15:44:36 <kaz> q+
15:44:52 <dape> SK: wonder how we best align with binding core document
15:45:40 <dape> ... wonder about the number of documents, Ontology and HTML, general documents multiplied by every binding
15:45:55 <dape> MK: Remember the discussion
15:46:09 <dape> ... lots of documents vs generic template spec
15:46:23 <dape> ... not sure there are arguments for both
15:46:56 <dape> Kaz: I wonder whether we should talk to Modbus implementors
15:47:02 <dape> CA: Agree
15:47:22 <dape> SK: 2 topics
15:47:27 <dape> .... 1. content makes sense
15:47:39 <dape> .... 2. whether we use multiple documents
15:48:09 <dape> q?
15:49:24 <dape> Kaz: We started to think about other liaison as well. Can ask them what they would like to see
15:50:07 <dape> .... ECHONET and others could provide ontology
15:51:07 <dape> SK: Yes, need to get in touch
15:51:47 <dape> MK: Having separate vocabulary makes sense
15:51:59 <dape> ... we did have HTTP pattern
15:52:14 <dape> ... we can not push others to do the work
15:52:32 <dape> ... propose to have vocabulary separate
15:53:08 <dape> ... I recommend core document being stable
15:53:53 <dape> ... maybe just having some pointers to bindings
15:54:16 <dape> ... standalone document should be self-contained
15:54:45 <dape> SK: like Uniform resource Locator ?
15:54:48 <dape> MK: Yes
15:55:20 <dape> CA: Question: separate document for ontology?
15:55:40 <dape> MK: start with one document. Once it is final we might break it up
15:56:00 <dape> ... suggest to talk to Ege also
15:56:29 <dape> SK: MQTT is part of core at the moment
15:56:46 <kaz> q?
15:56:47 <kaz> ack k
15:57:19 <dape> SK: Okay, lets go with having separate documents in the future for each binding
15:57:57 <dape> Kaz: DID could be useful in the future
15:58:25 <dape> CA: What are the missing steps on my side?
15:58:48 <dape> SK: Good so far. Examples are missing ...
15:59:23 <dape> ... ontology should be generic. examples are related to TD.
16:00:51 <dape> MK: TD mapping should not be part of generic ontology. rather part of binding document
16:05:02 <dape> SK: Thanks Cristiano for all your work
16:05:48 <dape> SK: Summary can be found here https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/109#issuecomment-780662878
16:06:22 <dape> MK: I have one more issue in mind? Shall I add the comment to this PR?
16:06:28 <dape> ... will create issue
16:09:11 <dape> SK: Agree with what Kaz mentioned before. Should get in touch with Modbus people
16:09:54 <mjk> https://www.modbus.org/docs/Modbus_Messaging_Implementation_Guide_V1_0b.pdf
16:11:44 <kaz> s/https/-> https/
16:11:45 <dape> TOPIC: OPC UA Binding
16:11:47 <mjk> https://www.modbus.org/specs.php
16:11:58 <mjk> https://www.modbus.org/docs/Modbus_Application_Protocol_V1_1b3.pdf
16:12:00 <dape> SK: Kaz mentioned to have a separate call
16:12:10 <dape> ... do we plan a web meeting?
16:12:28 <dape> kaz: Yes, I think we should do that
16:12:45 <dape> ... I can create doodle poll
16:13:27 <dape> SK: or PlugFest week, re-using cancelled calls
16:13:34 <sebastian> q?
16:13:40 <kaz> s/pdf/pdf Modbus application protocol spec/
16:13:47 <dape> TOPIC: Defer issue to TD 2.0
16:13:58 <dape> SK: please look into https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Defer+to+TD+2.0%22
16:14:15 <dape> SK: and provide feedback
16:14:57 <dape> TOPIC: PR 1052 Fix HTML fragments in ontology docs
16:15:21 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1052
16:15:41 <dape> DP: fixed reference issue
16:15:53 <dape> SK: I am OK with merging
16:16:24 <dape> TOPIC: PR 1049 TM Schema generation
16:16:31 <dape> --> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1049
16:16:54 <dape> SK: PR is about JSON schema for ThingModel
16:17:05 <dape> ... Ege provided version and script
16:17:53 <dape> DP: Ege uses script which is good
16:18:27 <dape> SK: Since it is marked as WIP we should wait before we merge
16:19:15 <dape> TOPIC: PR 1042 Add additionalResponses to Form
16:19:20 <dape> --> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1042
16:19:22 <kaz> s/1052/1052 PR 1052/
16:19:31 <dape> MMC: PR is not yet done
16:19:31 <kaz> s/1049/1049 PR 1049/
16:19:42 <kaz> s/1042/1042 PR 1042/
16:20:28 <dape> MMC: wanted to get feedback before moving on
16:21:45 <dape> ... proposal: use additionalResponses to avoid backward compatibility issue
16:22:09 <cris> +1
16:22:24 <dape> ... property should not report back different data from input (use action instead)
16:23:41 <dape> SK: What is the use case for multiple responses?
16:23:54 <dape> MMC: e.g., different kind of errors
16:24:17 <dape> ... or also different success responses
16:24:31 <dape> SK: using oneOf?
16:24:51 <dape> MMC: oneOf is the alternative
16:25:28 <dape> ... should add text when to use what
16:26:32 <dape> CA: wonder whether it is possible to state response is error?
16:27:00 <dape> MMC: Could have error codes...
16:27:25 <dape> CA: among those possibleReponses can we mark one that this is an error
16:27:33 <dape> MMC: having a boolean?
16:27:54 <dape> ... could make sense
16:28:00 <dape> CA: will add comment to PR
16:28:33 <dape> TOPIC: PR #1024 Topics around Thing Model
16:28:40 <dape> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1024
16:28:53 <dape> SK: tried to incorporate input from last week
16:28:54 <kaz> s/1024/1024 PR 1024/
16:29:06 <dape> ... re-structured chapters
16:29:21 <dape> .. start with basic concept
16:29:35 <dape> ... next is thing model declaration
16:29:54 <dape> ... followed by "modelling tools"
16:30:02 <dape> ... like using versioning
16:30:49 <dape> ... extension and import (import is still missing)
16:31:15 <dape> ... afterwards "placeholder" concept with example
16:32:14 <dape> ... we have "required" feature also
16:32:32 <dape> ... should look into SDF approach w.r.t. required
16:33:15 <dape> ... I also explained the steps from TM to TD instance
16:33:32 <dape> ... see section 10.4
16:34:31 <dape> MMC: Do we say we MUST NOT put security in TM?
16:34:48 <dape> SK: No, it is weaker ... "MAY NOT"
16:35:01 <dape> MMC: Sounds good
16:35:54 <dape> SK: I plan to extend the examples section 10.5
16:36:28 <dape> MMC: Placeholder for number types?
16:37:06 <dape> SK: Placeholder provided as string. Mapping file is typed as number. There are libraries doing that already.
16:37:47 <dape> MK: SDF style approach? Overriding?
16:37:58 <McCool> q+
16:38:19 <dape> ... shall we have examples for it?
16:38:56 <dape> ... I could create some of those examples
16:39:02 <McCool> MMC: would be good to rewrite the existing examples in that style to compare
16:39:18 <dape> SK: Expect more feedback after the PlugFest
16:39:24 <dape> ... SDF examples make sense
16:39:48 <dape> MK: SDF uses JSON pointer or reference mechanism
16:39:51 <kaz> i/would be good/scribenick: McCool/
16:40:02 <kaz> i/Expect/scribenick: dape/
16:40:08 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
16:40:12 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:40:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:40:31 <dape> SK: we cannot override interactions
16:40:56 <dape> .. we cannot override type's
16:41:10 <McCool> q+
16:41:17 <dape> ... expect number being cast to integer
16:41:53 <dape> s/... expect/... except
16:43:32 <dape> MMC: scale factor might be a related topic
16:44:17 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:44:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:44:43 <dape> K: OCF has some of these scale factors
16:45:30 <dape> s/ K: OCF/MK: OCF
16:45:51 <dape> MMC: step is a related issue
16:46:04 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:46:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:46:06 <dape> MK: unit might also play a role here
16:46:42 <kaz> s|s/ K: OCF/MK: OCF||
16:46:52 <kaz> s/K: OCF/MK: OCF/
16:46:54 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:46:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:48:57 <dape> MMC: narrowing types is another topic
16:49:16 <dape> SK: created issue
16:49:37 <dape> --> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1054
16:50:10 <kaz> s/1054/1054 issue 1054/
16:50:59 <dape> SK: I propose to merge Pr#1024
16:51:19 <dape> .. will add come warnings that we are still collecting experience
16:51:34 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1024 PR 1024
16:51:45 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:51:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:52:26 <kaz> s/-->/->/g
16:52:26 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:52:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:53:00 <dape> SK: merged
16:53:50 <dape> MMC: I think we need section about validation
16:54:00 <dape> ... relates to discovery
16:54:44 <dape> TOPIC: Issue 1037 - The "body" location value for security schemes is underspecified
16:54:48 <dape> --> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1037
16:54:56 <kaz> s/-->/->/
16:54:56 <dape> MMC: Not ready to close
16:55:09 <kaz> s/1037/1037 Issue 1037/
16:55:22 <dape> ... need to add mentioning of JSON pointer
16:55:57 <dape> TOPIC: 1037 Issue 1037 - Adding term to indicate a stream of data
16:56:03 <dape> --> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1044
16:56:30 <dape> CA: relates to scripting
16:56:38 <dape> ... stream vs object
16:56:57 <dape> ... from scripting API it is transparent
16:57:05 <kaz> s/-->/->/
16:57:12 <kaz> s/1044/1044 Issue 1044/
16:57:14 <dape> MMC: in directory we talk about streaming
16:57:36 <kaz> s/1037 Issue 1037/Issue 1044/
16:57:44 <dape> .. geopos streams data also
16:57:44 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:57:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
16:58:15 <cris> q+
16:59:04 <dape> CA: usually the protocol level handles it
16:59:08 <kaz> s/geopos/GeoPose/
16:59:39 <dape> MMC: I think we should capture the use cases
16:59:47 <dape> CA: Agree
17:02:15 <kaz> [adjourned]
17:02:17 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-wot-td-minutes.html kaz