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15:48:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:48:40 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jo_
15:49:19 <jo_> Meeting: Rights Automation Community Group Teleconference
15:50:26 <jo_> Chair: Jo
15:52:53 <jo_> Agenda: https://w3c.github.io/market-data-odrl-profile/agendas/md-odrl-profile-agenda-2021-02-17.html
15:53:10 <jo_> regrets: renato
15:57:05 <belen> belen has joined #md-odrl-profile
16:00:25 <jo_> present+ jo, belen
16:00:47 <ben> ben has joined #md-odrl-profile
16:00:52 <Caspar_MacRae> Caspar_MacRae has joined #md-odrl-profile
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16:01:05 <jo_> present+ ilya, laura, marko
16:03:02 <joshuaCornejo> joshuaCornejo has joined #md-odrl-profile
16:03:34 <jo_> present+ ben, caspar, mevan, adam, mark
16:03:54 <jo_> present+ ali
16:04:02 <jo_> Topic: Admin
16:04:22 <jo_> Minutes: https://www.w3.org/2021/02/03-md-odrl-profile-minutes.html
16:04:40 <NigelP> NigelP has joined #md-odrl-profile
16:05:18 <jo_> scrfibe: jo
16:05:33 <jo_> s/scrfibe/scribe
16:06:14 <jo_> RESOLUTION: Accept minutes of last meeting
16:06:51 <jo_> Topic: Progress against completion
16:07:47 <jo_> ben: three criteria for completion, 2 pocs. We had the first one, second one will hopefully be demonstrated next week
16:08:02 <jo_> ... second criterion was test cases, we'll be discussing that toady
16:08:24 <jo_> ... third is to be able to translate the same licenses supplied by laura
16:08:35 <jo_> ... so goo progress to finish at end of march
16:09:11 <joshuaCornejo> Sorry - meeting overran
16:09:24 <jo_> ... finish mean publish first draft
16:10:22 <jo_> ... then two quarters of implementation reports and feedback etc.
16:10:37 <jo_> scribe: nigelp
16:11:21 <MichelleR> MichelleR has joined #md-odrl-profile
16:11:54 <NigelP> jo_: Need two conformant implementations to declare victory.
16:12:30 <NigelP> ... hope to have standard out end Q1 but continue to take feedback through next couple of quarters.
16:12:45 <jo_> rrsagent, make minutes
16:12:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-md-odrl-profile-minutes.html jo_
16:12:45 <NigelP> ... need process for maintenance / bug-fixes to standard
16:13:19 <jo_> Topic: solving for the Test Cases
16:14:24 <jo_> present+ josh, nigelp, michelle
16:14:44 <NigelP> ben: 67 test cases defined.
16:15:37 <NigelP> ... reviewed test cases and identified a few potential missing elements.
16:16:16 <jo_> present+ atiq
16:16:36 <NigelP> ... (discusses issues raised in github)
16:18:53 <jo_> scribe: jo
16:19:43 <jo_> Nigelp: captured in the comment agaist the commingle issue - arises in ontracts around use of data - e.g. Nasdaq single stock rule
16:20:23 <jo_> ... refers to derived data, also in the case of index licensing, where small amount is OK but more would require additional terms
16:20:56 <jo_> ... i.e. limitations ion use so a constraint
16:21:10 <jo_> laura: don't have to deal with commingle
16:21:51 <jo_> ... we'll get the question can I commingle? And it ends up being a question of derivation
16:22:35 <jo_> michelle: the licenses don't deal with the term in this way so is a constraint
16:22:55 <jo_> ben: recall that commingle constraints on a data set from my refinitiv days
16:24:41 <jo_> scribe: nigelp
16:24:45 <NigelP> scribe: NigelP
16:26:22 <NigelP> ben: moving to "store" Action
16:26:54 <jo_> scribe: joshuacornejo
16:27:23 <joshuaCornejo> NigelP: storing is an action, you get contract clauses around where you can store the data, if it is in-country, you need to adjust the storage location
16:27:37 <joshuaCornejo> ... questions around what happens at the end of the contract, rights to store the data
16:27:53 <joshuaCornejo> ... or any rights to keep, a minimal subset of it for regulatory purposes
16:28:18 <joshuaCornejo> ... constraints by location
16:28:50 <joshuaCornejo> Adam: what do you expect to happen, you don't expect a machine to auto delete
16:29:24 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: the standard is a digital representation of the ideas of a contract ... someone might be ambitious to implement a system
16:29:40 <joshuaCornejo> Ilya: you need a machine to know what the rules are
16:30:10 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: Adam, the answer to your question, the level of this standard is to specify what is there and the implementation is on a per case basis
16:30:28 <joshuaCornejo> Atiq: do we expect a catalogue?
16:30:39 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: is location effectively standardised or client specific?
16:30:55 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: if we can delay to after the next issue, that would be good
16:31:13 <joshuaCornejo> Mark: Nigel, you mentioned use cases? Is there a need to define specific use cases?
16:31:52 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: Nigel has already identify a new purpose, which is for "regulatory purposes". If there are any more purposes, we should be adding them
16:32:14 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: not at the moment - we will continue thinking
16:32:36 <joshuaCornejo> Michelle: usage for backtesting/analytical for historical purposes it might be a requirement
16:33:01 <joshuaCornejo> ... it would be good to make sure we capture it
16:33:30 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: <speaks about the GitHub #27>
16:34:48 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: the example I am thinking here - there is a major data vendor, they have a policy related to historical data, they will license it in 2 explicit terms: historical data, the right to store and use it for historical purposes, but there is also a narrow carve out: you can store data, provided you only give it to people if they are paying for one of our desktop products
16:34:58 <joshuaCornejo> Mark: are those third party?
16:35:03 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: that would be internal
16:35:08 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: my question remains
16:35:32 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: in that case, if you take the delay product, they don't consider you are storing the data - it wouldn't be considered an example
16:35:49 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: I can hold to my belief that data is fundamental fungible.
16:36:09 <joshuaCornejo> ... does anyone have an example where it is not?
16:36:54 <joshuaCornejo> Jo: it would be good to define 'fungible' ? A piece of data is just a piece of data, irrespective of the path
16:37:05 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: ... and it would be controlled by multiple licenses
16:38:00 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: you are more likely to see issues with this fungibility because it is possible there will be additional licensing restrictions that would be present in the provider vs contracting to the exchange directly
16:38:44 <joshuaCornejo> ... for example LME allows you to take data from their trading platform and give it to your clients for trading purposes. But if you use identical data from a different vendor, you will require different licenses.
16:39:13 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: but you would have different licenses, and I would always try to use the most permissible one to access the data
16:39:32 <joshuaCornejo> Michelle: it is most likely the license that will tell you
16:40:01 <joshuaCornejo> ... most of Refinitiv licenses will tell you that you need an Exchange license
16:40:34 <joshuaCornejo> Jo: personally I like the word fungible, but for clarity - this work is not covered by any data provenance considerations
16:40:54 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: we have to be careful on how we write this sentence
16:41:14 <jo_> ACTION: Ben to clarify fungibility
16:41:17 <jo_> Topic: Business Continuity
16:42:02 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: if there is a permission that has the purpose of business continuity, does it give me permission to do testing or is it to cover the case of an asteroid hit and now I need this permission to run the application in this new environment
16:42:40 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: the distinction makes sense, the examples we can see tend to look more like the limited rights to use the data in a temporary basis without having to do additional reporting
16:42:48 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: and to continue doing your business
16:43:54 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: Laura, do you need these DR clauses ?
16:44:02 <joshuaCornejo> <Laura wasn't online>
16:44:52 <joshuaCornejo> Jo: if it is a purpose, is using the data for your DR testing a purpose?
16:45:07 <jo_> ACTION: Michelle to find examples of disaster recovery
16:45:09 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: if you've got the right, it will assume that it includes an element of testing
16:45:18 <joshuaCornejo> Jo: do you use it?
16:45:34 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: yes, but we tend to use multiple production sites, splitting the application
16:45:46 <joshuaCornejo> ... because that is a much better way to know it is going to run on the day
16:46:04 <joshuaCornejo> Caspar: in the event of a disaster, would your reporting obligations kick in?
16:46:10 <joshuaCornejo> ... would it be a distinction there?
16:46:18 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: it will all depend on the license
16:46:53 <joshuaCornejo> ... we wouldn't typically use this scenario for major market data - in a primary/backup with both production users
16:47:19 <joshuaCornejo> ... not ruling out we use it but not for our majority of use cases
16:47:37 <jo_> Topic: Location, geography, and line-of-business constraints on users
16:48:08 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: most of the questions are constraints on permissions - location, geography, line-of-business
16:48:31 <joshuaCornejo> And it comes to your question Atiq - in terms of geography we can use the standard UN regions/subregions.
16:48:53 <joshuaCornejo> ... But locations, we cannot standardise. Will always be specific to the assignee.
16:49:15 <joshuaCornejo> The assignee will create their own list of locations coming from their contracts and agreements.
16:49:28 <joshuaCornejo> ... then there is line-of-business that sits between the two
16:49:46 <joshuaCornejo> ... some times these permissions will be tied to specific desks
16:49:51 <joshuaCornejo> ... like location
16:49:59 <joshuaCornejo> ... Atiq: what is your feeling about this?
16:50:02 <jo_> i/moving to "store" Action/Topic: Store Action
16:51:02 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: there is a pattern that we might be able to apply in this case, it is usually in a schedule tying a set of applications to those things explicitly
16:51:09 <jo_> i/captured in the comment agaist the commingle issue/Topic: commingle
16:51:53 <joshuaCornejo> Adam: how do you do it without assuming, for some sort of automated reporting
16:52:13 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: I agree with you adam
16:52:37 <jo_> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:52:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-md-odrl-profile-minutes.html jo_
16:52:53 <joshuaCornejo> Nigel: we should make the distinction between what we want to get into the standard and fully automation end-to-end
16:53:37 <joshuaCornejo> Ilya: there will be some standardisation and some outlier schedules with some text field - there is no standard way to chop business into standard cases
16:53:57 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: we can give some guidance to recommend how to automate some of this
16:54:17 <joshuaCornejo> Atiq: as more firms reach into the cloud, there will be commonality across businesses
16:55:27 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: in terms of LoB - is there anything else people might want to add to that list?
16:55:51 <jo_> (the list being: front, middle, back, buy-side, sell-side)
16:56:11 <joshuaCornejo> Caspar: do you want give us an update on the PoC for the 3rd of March?
16:56:12 <jo_> Topic: PoC Update
16:56:23 <joshuaCornejo> Caspar: <describes the progress>
16:56:51 <joshuaCornejo> Ben: any questions on that ?
16:57:09 <jo_> Topic: AOB
16:58:11 <jo_> scribe: jo
16:58:18 <NigelP> NigelP has left #md-odrl-profile
16:58:23 <jo_> ACTION: Ben to chase re chat on Zoom
16:58:35 <jo_> jo: hearing no other business
16:59:09 <jo_> ... meeting closed (with thanks to Nigel and Josh for scribing)
16:59:22 <jo_> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-md-odrl-profile-minutes.html jo_
17:02:56 <jo_> scribeoptions: nodraft, oldstyle
17:03:08 <jo_> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-md-odrl-profile-minutes.html jo_
17:04:10 <jo_> scribeoptions: nodraft, oldStyle
17:04:14 <jo_> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:04:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-md-odrl-profile-minutes.html jo_
17:05:15 <jo_> scribeoptions: -nodraft, -oldStyle
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17:09:54 <jo__> scribeoptions: -oldStyle, -nodraft
17:10:02 <jo__> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:10:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-md-odrl-profile-minutes.html jo__
17:10:20 <jo__> s/toady/today
17:10:37 <ben> s/… so goo/… so good
17:10:56 <jo__> s/so goo/so good/
17:11:46 <jo__> s/in ontracts/in contracts
17:12:04 <jo__> s/limitations ion/limitations in
17:14:06 <jo__> s/this work is not covered/this work is not encumbered
17:14:40 <jo__> s/And it comes to/... And it comes to/
17:14:56 <jo__> s/The assignee will create/... The assignee will create
17:15:57 <jo__> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:15:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-md-odrl-profile-minutes.html jo__
17:19:04 <jo__> rrsagent, bye
17:19:04 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-md-odrl-profile-actions.rdf :
17:19:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to clarify fungibility [1]
17:19:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-md-odrl-profile-irc#T16-41-14
17:19:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michelle to find examples of disaster recovery [2]
17:19:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-md-odrl-profile-irc#T16-45-07
17:19:04 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to chase re chat on Zoom [3]
17:19:04 <RRSAgent>   recorded in https://www.w3.org/2021/02/17-md-odrl-profile-irc#T16-58-23