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14:22:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:22:19 <Zakim> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
14:22:36 <jeanne> Meeting: Silver Task Force & Community Group
14:22:36 <jeanne> present:
14:22:36 <jeanne> chair: jeanne
14:22:36 <jeanne> present+
14:22:37 <jeanne> zakim, clear agenda
14:22:37 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
14:22:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/16-silver-minutes.html jeanne
14:22:37 <jeanne> q?
14:22:37 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:22:38 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #silver
14:22:43 <jeanne> regrets+ Shawn
14:23:29 <jeanne> agenda+ report from editors on Github Issues
14:23:29 <jeanne> agenda+ report on extended Acknowledgements proposal
14:23:29 <jeanne> agenda+ start discussion on Silver and Gold levels
14:26:18 <JakeAbma> present+
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14:26:37 <Chuck> present+
14:27:04 <Chuck> agenda?
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14:28:05 <jennifer_strickland> present+
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14:29:59 <Rachael> present+
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14:30:20 <JustineP> present+
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14:30:36 <sajkaj> present+
14:30:42 <sajkaj> scribe: sajkaj
14:30:45 <Makoto> present+
14:31:08 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:31:09 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- report from editors on Github Issues -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:31:10 <ToddLibby> present+
14:31:17 <sajkaj> js: Notes Shawn on vacation this week ...
14:31:29 <jennifer_strickland> I wonder, when we use the reactions in Zoom, do screen reader users get any indication?
14:31:35 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
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14:33:04 <Jemma> present+
14:33:04 <sarahhorton> present+
14:33:12 <mgarrish> present+
14:33:16 <Fazio> prsent+
14:33:20 <mikecrabb> present+
14:33:38 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/Issue_Processing_Report
14:33:58 <sajkaj> js: found this approach instructive; plan to update weekly
14:34:32 <sajkaj> js: Note that clicking on link brings up latest from github on that issue
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14:35:11 <sajkaj> js: Notes some Silver issues predate FPWD and are not closed
14:35:21 <joconnor> present+
14:35:35 <sajkaj> js: Some may be quite old
14:36:15 <sajkaj> js: Notes that comments on FPWD began before actual publication; Using Nov 1 as a start date
14:36:34 <sajkaj> js: reviews stats ...
14:37:50 <JF> JF has joined #silver
14:38:11 <Jemma> It is a good idea to link to github url with filters since they will be updated automatically.
14:38:19 <sajkaj> js: Requests "action ready for survey" flag on items coming out of subgroups looking for async approval
14:38:21 <JF> Present+
14:39:05 <Fazio> i like it
14:39:33 <sajkaj> df: Nice salient labels in github; clean table -- very nice
14:39:41 <sajkaj> js: trying to make it easy for github newbies
14:40:00 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:40:00 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- report on extended Acknowledgements proposal -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:40:19 <jeanne> https://www.w3.org/2021/02/09-ag-minutes.html#item02
14:40:32 <sajkaj> js: Requesting status update on extended acknowledgements
14:40:48 <sajkaj> rm: Checking whether followup email was sent ...
14:41:02 <sajkaj> js: Will there be CfC?
14:41:07 <sajkaj> rm: That's the email
14:41:35 <kirkwood> present+
14:41:36 <sajkaj> js: Concerned another CfC after names are attached ...
14:41:56 <sajkaj> mc: Suggest now for principles and good to keep it separate from actual names
14:41:58 <Rachael> q+
14:42:04 <Chuck> q+
14:42:24 <Rachael> ack Rachael
14:42:26 <sajkaj> mc: Notes this is typically chair perogative, not group consensus
14:42:47 <sajkaj> rm: don't expect CfC on maes
14:42:57 <jeanne> ack rach
14:42:59 <sajkaj> s/mae/names/
14:43:00 <jeanne> ack chuc
14:43:39 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
14:43:39 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- start discussion on Silver and Gold levels -- taken up [from jeanne]
14:44:24 <sajkaj> js: It's a major area not addressed in FPWD; but we've promissed to do so in the next working draft
14:44:33 <jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BjH_9iEr_JL8d7sE7BoQckmkpaDksKZiH7Q-RdDide4/
14:45:09 <sajkaj> js: Notes currently 4 options; Are there others?
14:45:29 <sajkaj> js: #1 that Bronze is like 2.x A/AA
14:45:39 <Rachael> q+ to clarify some terms when jeanne is done
14:45:52 <sajkaj> js: reads out the others ...
14:46:34 <sajkaj> js: Notes all are variations on each other--same terms
14:47:02 <sajkaj> rm: speaking of A/AA/AAA is a comparative
14:47:21 <sajkaj> rm: testing usability is intended across life-cycle
14:47:23 <Sheri_B-H> present+
14:47:30 <Sheri_B-H> q+
14:47:54 <jeanne> ack rach
14:47:54 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to clarify some terms when jeanne is done
14:47:56 <sajkaj> rm: maturity model will be outpuf of that subgroup
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14:48:23 <jeanne> ack sheri
14:49:18 <sajkaj> sherie: Notes we'll want to say "maturity model" at a particular level
14:49:23 <sajkaj> js: recommendation yet?
14:49:31 <Fazio> +1
14:49:34 <sajkaj> sherie: probably 2, but not edetermined yet
14:49:40 <JakeAbma> Q+
14:50:04 <jeanne> ack Jak
14:50:21 <Chuck> q+
14:50:33 <JF> Q+
14:50:55 <sajkaj> ja: concerned re need for AT testing
14:51:09 <Jemma> +1 to Jake's AT testing question
14:51:22 <JF> +1 to Jake: Testable, measurable and repeatable
14:51:23 <sajkaj> ja: believe premature which to choose because we don't yet know what the meaning of all of these is yet
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14:51:55 <sajkaj> ja: isn't too early for silver/gold? shouldn't we trial some of these approaches?
14:52:27 <Wilco> present+
14:52:53 <sajkaj> js: Clarifies we're not looking to make a decision today but to start discussing options to help maturity model understand where to go
14:53:03 <sajkaj> df: we're actively discussing options
14:53:45 <Jemma> q+
14:53:57 <sajkaj> ja: also thinking maturity model might apply in 2.x as well
14:54:40 <sajkaj> ja: at testing, usability testing, tech testing are maturity model by definition
14:55:05 <jeanne> ack chuc
14:55:21 <sajkaj> ca: Is this doc ready to share?
14:57:06 <sajkaj> ca: not ready, but just to get reflection on the concepts -- is it OK to share this not yet ready doc around?
14:57:17 <sajkaj> js: all our docs are public
14:57:49 <sajkaj> js: It's always an option to discuss W3C around your organization; one should just be clear that the doc is a work in progress
14:58:24 <jeanne> ack JF
14:59:05 <sajkaj> jf: recalling new clients always trip over A vs AA ...
14:59:23 <sajkaj> jf: not seeing anything that incentivises striving to go beyond bronze
14:59:25 <kirkwood> please send me the link as well with understanding.
14:59:58 <sajkaj> jf: concerned that going above bronze is going to be too hard from a regulatory pov
15:00:15 <jennifer_strickland> Q+
15:00:29 <sajkaj> jf: believe it's especially a problem for medium small orgs
15:00:35 <Sheri_B-H> q+
15:00:45 <jeanne> ack jen
15:01:08 <Jemma> q?
15:01:37 <sajkaj> jennifer: clarifying that human testing is still necessary -- manual testing to be compliant?
15:01:55 <sajkaj> js: manual is currently in bronze
15:02:34 <sajkaj> js: responding to jf that silver can't be used to artificially increase scoring that qualifies bronze
15:02:44 <sajkaj> js: one must first achieve bronze
15:03:05 <JF> Bronze = A, AA   Silver and Gold = AAA
15:03:09 <sajkaj> js: bronze intended to be understood as minimum; remaining metalics are more
15:03:25 <JF> Q+ to respond to Jeanne
15:03:39 <sajkaj> js: it's all a work in progress, of course
15:03:50 <jeanne> ack jemma
15:03:54 <Sheri_B-H> q-
15:04:12 <sajkaj> jema: understand silver requires extra effort
15:05:27 <sajkaj> jema: notes a cg working to make AT testing more achievable
15:05:47 <sajkaj> js: didn't realize that, very exciting
15:06:00 <Wilco> Yeah, ARIA-AG https://www.w3.org/community/aria-at/
15:06:01 <sajkaj> js: would make Silver far more available to small orgs
15:06:05 <JF> ack me
15:06:05 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to respond to Jeanne
15:06:14 <jeanne> q?
15:06:21 <Wilco> s/ARIA-AG/ARIA-AT
15:06:40 <sajkaj> jf: +1 to jema; just concerned about scaling
15:06:58 <jennifer_strickland> +1 to jf
15:07:07 <sajkaj> jf: concerned silver/gold become like today's AAA -- basically unused
15:07:28 <JakeAbma> q+
15:07:36 <sajkaj> jf: we need a mechanism that works inside the organizations processes
15:08:14 <jeanne> ack jake
15:08:56 <Wilco> q+
15:09:44 <sajkaj> ja: there are other approaches than our current bronze/silver/gold; higher scoring should increase your metalic
15:10:23 <Chuck> q+ to ask about Jake's observations of no change
15:10:40 <sajkaj> ja: If one improves the product, shouldn't it get better than bronze? If the site is really really a11y?
15:11:22 <sajkaj> ja: a prefect website -- but without the specific AT/usability testing; and without maturity model; still only bronze? Doesn't seem right
15:11:23 <JF> +1 to returning to score
15:12:15 <sajkaj> ja: Seems we're defining ways to test; not the quality of the web product
15:12:27 <Chuck> q?
15:12:29 <jeanne> q?
15:12:37 <jeanne> ack wilco
15:12:40 <sajkaj> rm: tried to capture jake's proposal in option #5; please fix if I got it wrong
15:12:51 <sajkaj> wilco: agree with Jake
15:13:08 <JF> +1 to Wilco
15:13:17 <sajkaj> wilco: find it peculiar that one metalic is about the product; but others about how one tests against the product
15:13:23 <JF> Q+
15:14:02 <sajkaj> wilco: it's OK to give guidance about how to organize the processes of achieving higher quality product; but we shouldn't mix the two
15:14:14 <Fazio> q+
15:14:33 <sajkaj> wilco: else we're setting the bar too low
15:15:59 <sajkaj> js: all this came of current pass/fail not getting desired results
15:16:13 <sajkaj> js: we needed to do more for inclusive design
15:16:37 <sajkaj> js: assisting regulators on doing more without requiring it
15:16:53 <jeanne> ack chu
15:16:54 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask about Jake's observations of no change
15:17:33 <sajkaj> ca: agree that meeting bronze MAY indicate already achieved Silver -- but doing the testing is the validation
15:17:46 <sajkaj> ca: the validation step advances the bar
15:18:03 <sajkaj> ja: yes, that advances the maturity of the processes
15:18:47 <sajkaj> ja: it's helpful for additional product testing, but doesn't improve the product
15:19:46 <jeanne> ack JF
15:20:04 <sajkaj> js: let's not be saying "perfectly" ...
15:20:27 <Rachael> q+
15:20:31 <sajkaj> jf: where's the scoring?
15:20:42 <Chuck> q+ to ask that this document is a "space station view" of the proposals
15:20:46 <sajkaj> js: already part of bronze
15:21:38 <sajkaj> jf: If inuderstand the discussion; we have two different things and we need to recognize that we're measuring two different things
15:21:44 <sajkaj> js: believe we have
15:22:03 <Rachael> q-
15:22:27 <sajkaj> js: notes the base remains bronze before you can even consider silver; then again before can consider gold
15:22:32 <jennifer_strickland> q+
15:22:42 <jeanne> ack david
15:22:47 <jeanne> ack faz
15:23:19 <sajkaj> df: Notes EU moving toward a maturity model kind of approach
15:24:20 <jeanne> ack chuck
15:24:20 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask that this document is a "space station view" of the proposals
15:24:49 <sajkaj> ca: Notes doc is intended to trigger discussion -- and it's doing that!
15:25:09 <jeanne> ack jen
15:25:18 <sajkaj> ca: obviously much more to add to the doc; but far enough along for good considerations to come out
15:26:00 <sajkaj> jennifer: still concerned about manual testing esp if requires AT
15:26:33 <sajkaj> js: Lots that doesn't need AT; eg. useful alt; even today
15:27:08 <sajkaj> js: but asking whether products work with AT is a different level
15:27:53 <sajkaj> jennifer: we need to make sure the barest minimum works for everyone; and the higher metalics build on the experience toward a great experience
15:28:35 <sajkaj> jennifer: maybe not every screen reader; but should test with a screen reader
15:28:51 <jeanne> q+ to say standards
15:28:59 <Fazio> q+
15:29:34 <sajkaj> js: Chair hat off -- there are many situations where AT is malbehaved
15:29:52 <sajkaj> js: some will work, and others not even when product built to spec
15:30:01 <Wilco> q+
15:30:05 <sajkaj> js: the AT may not follow standards and can cause problems
15:30:22 <sajkaj> js: We don't want companies coding to support specific AT
15:30:40 <JF> A technical standard is an established norm or requirement for a repeatable technical task. It is usually a formal document that establishes uniform engineering or technical criteria, methods, processes, and practices. (source: wikipedia)
15:30:46 <sajkaj> q+
15:31:08 <Wilco> q-
15:31:14 <sajkaj> js: Was a very important issue i18n, because related AT could behave so differently
15:31:36 <JF> Q+ to say that's sadly not how the web works. @placeholder as label
15:31:40 <Wilco> A very substantial part of AT work has no standardisation for it.
15:31:44 <jeanne> ack jea
15:31:44 <Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to say standards
15:32:02 <sajkaj> jennifer: perhaps we need be more explicit about this
15:32:27 <sajkaj> jennifer: considering one AT that doesn't currently handle dd correctly
15:32:38 <sajkaj> s/dd/dl/
15:32:49 <JF> HTML5's design principle was users over authors, authors over implementers, implementers over code purity
15:32:59 <SuzanneTaylor> present+
15:33:03 <sajkaj> js: to be continued!
15:33:06 <kirkwood> present+
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15:34:09 <sajkaj> zakim, bye
15:34:09 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been jeanne, JakeAbma, Chuck, jennifer_strickland, Rachael, JustineP, sajkaj, Makoto, ToddLibby, Laura_Carlson, Jemma, sarahhorton,
15:34:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver
15:34:12 <Zakim> ... mgarrish, mikecrabb, joconnor, JF, kirkwood, Sheri_B-H, Wilco, SuzanneTaylor
15:34:16 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:34:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/16-silver-minutes.html sajkaj
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16:01:00 <jeanne> regrets+ CharlesHall, ChrisL
16:01:09 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/16-silver-minutes.html jeanne
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