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15:00:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-wot-discovery-irc
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15:00:47 <citrullin> Can someone send me the webex link? I don't have access to the page. Btw: Who do I have to contact to get access to https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-wot-wg/ ?
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15:04:58 <kaz> Meeting: WoT Discovery
15:05:06 <kaz> chair: McCool
15:05:44 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Andrea_Cimmino
15:06:01 <FarshidT> FarshidT has joined #wot-discovery
15:06:07 <kaz> present+ Christian_Glomb, Cristino_Aguzzi, Farshid_Tavakolizadeh
15:06:17 <kaz> present+ Kunihiko_Toumura
15:06:20 <FarshidT> topic: minutes
15:06:22 <citrullin> Need the link to webex
15:07:23 <cris> cris has joined #wot-discovery
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15:07:46 <kaz> present+ Christine_Perey
15:08:10 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
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15:09:35 <FarshidT> no objections to publishing the minutes
15:11:09 <FarshidT> topic: Extending the discovery slot to 2h
15:12:51 <FarshidT> mm: We can try to finish important things in the first hour and continue with less important things in the second hour
15:13:55 <FarshidT> mm: Will do an extra hour today and discuss it again next week. Some people have conflicts.
15:14:19 <FarshidT> topic: F2F schedule
15:14:26 <kaz> zaskim, who is on the call?
15:14:50 <FarshidT> mm: The date is fixed
15:14:54 <kaz> present+ Philipp-Alexander_Blum
15:14:54 <FarshidT> mm: Need to start scheduling some topics
15:15:08 <kaz> s/zaskim, who is on the call?//
15:15:17 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
15:15:24 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:15:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
15:15:57 <FarshidT> mm: In particular, the discovery topics. E.g. review of current spec such as introduction, info. model, serialization
15:16:14 <kaz> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Discovery_WebConf#15_February_2021
15:17:49 <kaz> i|The date is fixed|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_March_2021#Topics_to_be_Scheduled F2F topics|
15:20:04 <kaz> i|no objections to|-> https://www.w3.org/2021/02/08-wot-discovery-minutes.html Feb-8|
15:20:13 <FarshidT> ca: One open issue which we can discuss in the F2F is the framing.
15:20:17 <kaz> i|no objections to|scribenick: FarshidT|
15:20:20 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:20:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
15:20:40 <kaz> s|Can someone send me the webex link? I don't have access to the page. Btw: Who do I have to contact to get access to https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-wot-wg/ ?||
15:20:53 <kaz> s|Need the link to webex||
15:20:56 <FarshidT> ac: Cannot convert back and forth between JSON-LD and RDF
15:21:00 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:21:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
15:22:51 <FarshidT> cg: It makes sense to have TD people and also Victor who designed the TD ontology.
15:23:27 <FarshidT> s/Victor/Victor Charpenay/
15:24:59 <kaz> q+
15:25:59 <kaz> ack k
15:26:18 <FarshidT> mm: Each day is 3h. If longer, we'll have to break the slot into 2 days.
15:27:27 <kaz> i/Each/kaz: should add semantic search, etc./
15:27:27 <McCool> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting,_March_2021#Discovery
15:28:46 <FarshidT> topic: PR Specify self-described exploration #115 (https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/115)
15:29:29 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:29:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
15:30:59 <kaz> s|topic: PR Specify self-described exploration #115 (https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/115)|topic: PR Specify self-described exploration #115|
15:31:17 <FarshidT> mm: References in assertions cause issues in the generated output
15:31:50 <kaz> i|References|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/115 PR 115 - Specify self-described exploration|
15:32:25 <FarshidT> mm: What about filtering / selecting a part of TD, e.g. using JSONPath
15:32:28 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:32:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
15:33:40 <FarshidT> mm: For example, to ask devices to respond only if their TDs have a particular property
15:34:00 <kaz> i|For example,|-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-discovery/115/b122b36...farshidtz:0ee7abc.html#exploration-self 6.1 Self-description|
15:35:54 <FarshidT> mm: no objections to merging.
15:37:26 <FarshidT> topic: Refine the information model #118 (https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/118)
15:38:12 <kaz> s|topic: Refine the information model #118 (https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/118)|topic: Refine the information model #118|
15:38:45 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/118 PR 118 - Refine the information model
15:39:15 <citrullin> mc: prefer the overview.
15:39:31 <citrullin> far: Didn't wanted to show we have a new class
15:39:59 <kaz> i/prefer/scribenick: citrullin/
15:40:05 <citrullin> far: This diagram makes it clear this is optional.
15:40:48 <citrullin> mc: Do I need all information in the directory? It is all or nothing.
15:42:01 <FarshidT> https://plantuml.com/class-diagram
15:42:07 <citrullin> far: The diagram tool is used in the other specs as well.
15:42:50 <citrullin> mc: Little confusing diagram.
15:42:56 <citrullin> fad: yes, I can change that.
15:43:36 <citrullin> Andrea explaining some context of the diagram tool.
15:45:37 <citrullin> mc: Guess, in the future, reopen the discussion. Okay with merging it for now.
15:45:47 <citrullin> mc: Any comments on it?
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15:46:28 <dezell> present+ David_Ezell
15:46:35 <citrullin> fad adds some comments about the diagram.
15:47:05 <citrullin> fad: Check terminology.
15:47:10 <citrullin> mc: I take a look
15:47:38 <citrullin> mc: probably want to be more specific.
15:47:49 <kaz> s/fad:/far:/g
15:47:52 <citrullin> fed: When I cite the terminolgy I am more specific.
15:48:02 <kaz> s/fad adds/Farshid Adds/
15:50:02 <citrullin> mc: question is, if the terminology of partial TD consistent.
15:50:42 <citrullin> mc adds issue to wot-discovery
15:51:00 <citrullin> issue 119 created in wot-discovery
15:51:10 <citrullin> mc: Any objections merging it?
15:51:24 <citrullin> no objections
15:51:43 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:51:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
15:51:48 <citrullin> christian: Can we mark it as work in progress?
15:52:23 <citrullin> mc: You can raise additional points, if you want to. Or add editorial notes.
15:52:52 <citrullin> far: There is an issue on github we can link to.
15:53:11 <citrullin> mc adds comment about the issue being a WIP.
15:53:35 <cperey> sorry... not much to contribute to today's discussion so signing off until you return to the AR or geospatial use cases
15:54:40 <citrullin> mc merged the PR
15:55:00 <citrullin> topic: Geolocation
15:55:12 <citrullin> mc: No additional points. Working on it.
15:56:06 <kaz> [ 5min break and then continue the discussion for today ]
15:56:16 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
16:03:37 <citrullin> mc organizes some of the issues and prioritizes them.
16:06:01 <citrullin> mc: Let's put all the terminology stuff into this one issue. (#119 in wot-discovery)
16:06:06 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/issues/119 Issue 119 - Revisit Partial TD terminology
16:07:01 <citrullin> mc: Working on a PR. Fragment is inconsistent. So, proposed to change it.
16:07:27 <citrullin> mc: Proposed to change it to TD element instead
16:07:46 <citrullin> mc: Other terms to worry about?
16:07:51 <citrullin> No responses
16:09:21 <citrullin> topic: #1042 error responses
16:10:53 <citrullin> mc: Right now we have in forms content-type. Expected to be input and output the same. Trouble is: Only the case for properties. You can also can different reponse from input.
16:12:08 <citrullin> mc: ExpectedResponse only has contentType. No additonal fields. This lead to problems in certain cases.
16:12:29 <citrullin> mc: I think we need additional fields.
16:13:32 <kaz> i|Right now|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/1042 wot-thing-description PR 1042 - WIP: Add additionalResponses to Form|
16:15:03 <citrullin> christian: Do we have any examples for this?
16:15:26 <citrullin> mc explains some cases where this my happen.
16:15:53 <citrullin> mc: Thinking about updating my PR for it.
16:16:20 <FarshidT> The original issue has few examples: https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/617
16:16:48 <citrullin> mc: Just wanted to point this out. We should discuss this.
16:16:59 <citrullin> Topic: Pagination
16:17:16 <FarshidT> Example pagination: https://demo.linksmart.eu/thing-directory/td
16:17:36 <citrullin> far: Different ways to do it.
16:18:22 <citrullin> far explains the example
16:18:48 <citrullin> christian adds some suggestions to improve it.
16:19:26 <citrullin> Andrea adds a potential solution for it.
16:20:06 <citrullin> far: Not very efficient way to do it.
16:20:57 <citrullin> Andrea: Diagram you showed before. Makes sense to have it as an attribute.
16:21:11 <citrullin> Andrea: Maybe it can hinder some developer.
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16:22:20 <citrullin> mc: What about other formats? For example CoAP? It may makes problems with other protocols.
16:22:38 <citrullin> far: Do we really need this information?
16:22:49 <citrullin> Speaking of total
16:23:21 <citrullin> christian: Anyone looked into the github api for it? Maybe it is an inspiration for this issue.
16:23:38 <citrullin> mc: Do we really care about the count?
16:24:52 <citrullin> christian: It is relevant for linked TDs.
16:25:13 <citrullin> mc: If I get more than 100 back my query isn't specific enough.
16:25:27 <citrullin> mc: In many cases I only care, if it is more than 1.
16:26:32 <citrullin> Andrea: sparql has its own pagination. REST doesn't have it, because it returns all the TDs and it may be a lot of TDs.
16:27:41 <citrullin> Discussion about using link-listed for it.
16:28:08 <citrullin> Andreas has agrees with christian that this may be a solution for certail protocols.
16:28:17 <citrullin> certain*
16:29:10 <citrullin> Christian: fad, do you need to skip pages?
16:29:36 <citrullin> fed: Not really.
16:29:45 <citrullin> far*
16:30:25 <citrullin> mc: Maybe we don't have a one fits all solution for it here.
16:30:51 <citrullin> mc: Maybe we have different APIs for different use-cases here.
16:31:12 <citrullin> far: Maybe we don't need the parent here.
16:31:16 <kaz> q+
16:31:47 <citrullin> mc: Wrapper object complicates it.
16:32:00 <citrullin> far: I don't really follow.
16:32:28 <citrullin> mc explains details about it. With linked-list structure.
16:33:17 <citrullin> far explains the specific use-case they have to christian.
16:33:47 <citrullin> mc: Returning an array might be too big.
16:34:14 <citrullin> far: We have pagination for it.
16:34:47 <citrullin> christian: Why should we restrict ourself to one TD?
16:35:01 <citrullin> far: We need to do a lot of quering for it then.
16:35:17 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/w3c-api/ W3C API Overview
16:36:53 <citrullin> kaz: Already added a comment to it. With itemNumber for the pages. REST API. My point is: Not a specification, more an interface. If we want to have a count, we also need a field for how many data are in one page.
16:38:36 <citrullin> mc: We researched this already. We can compress it down. So, I would say: 16k maximum size of a TD.
16:39:23 <citrullin> mc: anyways, that would limit our transaction size to 16k. What is the reasonble size for a transaction?
16:39:44 <kaz> s/Already added a comment to it./thought I had already given this comment for this topic several months ago, there is a similar API named "W3C API" to access the W3C DB./
16:40:02 <citrullin> micheal: Let's the implementation take care of it. In cloud may fine, but on constrained devices.
16:40:35 <citrullin> but not on constrained devices. *
16:40:59 <kaz> s/itemNumber for the pages/the parameters for (1) how many items should be listed on a page and (2) which page should be displayed/
16:41:47 <citrullin> Andrea adds details to the discussion with the discovery to it. Fad comments some problematic use-cases to it.
16:42:01 <kaz> s/Not a specification, more an interface./we can look at the document to get some insight./
16:42:38 <kaz> s/how many data are/how much data should be included/
16:42:38 <citrullin> mc: We can take a look into. I tried to capture some points on it. We need to do an analysis on it.
16:43:19 <citrullin> mc: I think we need some explaines for it. How do we organize it? Complex discussion. How do we do a decision on it?
16:43:27 <citrullin> explames*
16:43:33 <citrullin> examples*
16:43:59 <kaz> s/explaines/examples/
16:44:04 <kaz> s/explames*//
16:44:09 <kaz> s/examples*//
16:44:17 <citrullin> mc: Feel like we have a lot of options with a trade-offs. So, we should collect it.
16:45:06 <citrullin> mc adds some comments to the issue.
16:46:22 <citrullin> mc explains some use-cases with different approaches to it.
16:46:41 <citrullin> mc: What are the use-cases we need to research?
16:47:13 <citrullin> Andrea responds with the light-switch example.
16:47:34 <citrullin> mc: Pagination doesn't apply to search results?
16:47:36 <citrullin> far: no
16:49:37 <McCool> q?
16:50:00 <kaz> ack k
16:50:42 <citrullin> Some discussion between andrea and christiano about sparkql, xpath and jsonpath in context of wot.
16:52:31 <citrullin> mc: If it just about the REST API, downloading the entire database is a rare use-cse.
16:53:14 <citrullin> far: I disagree. You are putting more pressure on the server with a linked-list.
16:53:54 <citrullin> far: In that case I can solve it with JSONpath.
16:54:31 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
16:54:36 <citrullin> far: Maybe querying all on once may be not so useful.
16:54:59 <citrullin> mc: last 5 minutes. Let's discuss next steps.
16:55:20 <citrullin> mc adds comments to the issue #16
16:56:13 <citrullin> far:  At the current stage pagination is simple to provide.
16:57:00 <citrullin> mc: JSONPath etc. have solutions for this, so we have to make sure not to duplicate it for these protocols.
16:57:52 <kaz> i|Example pagination:|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/issues/16 Issue 16 - Handle huge set of Thing Descriptions (pagination, streaming, etc.)|
16:58:33 <citrullin> mc: We are out of time. We need concrete examples. Need PRs for it, as a starting point.
16:58:41 <citrullin> far: Agree, I can write it down.
16:59:10 <citrullin> mc: I need to open it for other people.
16:59:45 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/issues/16#issuecomment-779345307 McCool's comments for issue 16
17:00:13 <kaz> [adjourned]
17:00:40 <citrullin> s/need/keep/
17:01:05 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
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