20:51:16 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #merchantbg
20:51:16 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-merchantbg-irc
20:51:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
20:51:19 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), nicktr
20:51:31 <nicktr> meeting: Merchant Business Group
20:51:38 <nicktr> chair: John O'Brien
20:51:49 <nicktr> scribe: Nick Telford-Reed
20:55:03 <nicktr> agenda+ new members
20:55:19 <nicktr> agenda+ recap and minutes
20:55:29 <nicktr> agenda+ web monetization
20:55:43 <nicktr> agenda+ working on use cases and other group work
20:55:46 <nicktr> agenda?
20:59:38 <phila> phila has joined #merchantbg
20:59:58 <nicktr> present+ matthew.orr
21:00:42 <nicktr> present+ phil.archer
21:02:49 <nicktr> present+ ian.jacobs
21:04:15 <nicktr> present+ mark.sadecki
21:04:35 <nicktr> marks: Introductions
21:04:44 <nicktr> ...Head of Accessibility at Chewy.com
21:07:05 <nicktr> zakim, take up item 3
21:07:05 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- web monetization -- taken up [from nicktr]
21:07:22 <nicktr> present+ Phil.Archer
21:07:33 <nicktr> present+ KAren.Myers
21:07:43 <nicktr> present+ Mel.O'Brien
21:07:53 <nicktr> present+ john.o'brien
21:08:02 <nicktr> present+ david.ezell
21:08:21 <nicktr> present+ linda.toth
21:08:57 <nicktr> ahb: Web Monetization is an API used by websites to accept payments
21:09:29 <nicktr> ...the goal is to standardise these payment links
21:10:10 <nicktr> ...these URLs are issued by a payment provider
21:10:38 <nicktr> ...declarative and imperative API pairs
21:11:13 <nicktr> ahb: supported in Puma natively and elsewhere as a browser extension
21:13:15 <nicktr> ahb: adoption is going well (Conde Nast is experimenting with it)
21:13:28 <nicktr> ...primary use case is digital content
21:13:46 <nicktr> ...but also digital games
21:14:20 <nicktr> ...challenge is to get traction in the audience to get to mass adoption
21:15:00 <nicktr> ...we at Coil are beginning to look at other use cases including tipping
21:15:22 <nicktr> ...currently the micropayment is a set amount per second
21:15:56 <nicktr> ahb: Coil's business model is to charge users for a coil account
21:16:11 <nicktr> ...but this is not a feature of the standard
21:17:04 <nicktr> ahb: goal is to get the standard natively across the browser market
21:17:28 <nicktr> ...good support via extensions on desktop, and on Samsung Internet on mobile
21:18:12 <nicktr> ahb: there is also an experimental implementation in firefox nightly
21:19:25 <nicktr> ...ideally the business logic would sit in a payment handler
21:19:55 <nicktr> ...critical pieces are receiver, agent and sender
21:21:16 <nicktr> ahb: what is interledger?
21:21:28 <nicktr> ...originated at Ripple
21:21:48 <nicktr> ...it's a payment clearing network modelled on the internet
21:22:56 <nicktr> ...currently doing 5 million payments a day with average size < USD 0.01
21:26:47 <nicktr> ahb: ecosystem includes interledger Foundation (a not-for-profit)
21:27:10 <nicktr> ...web monetization as a exerpimental standard
21:28:28 <nicktr> ...open payments as a open loop application layer
21:29:53 <nicktr> ahb: introduces Grant for the Web for people to boost alternative revenue models for the web
21:30:06 <nicktr> ...fund totals $100M
21:30:49 <nicktr> q+
21:32:24 <nicktr> John.o'brien: how do you think about the relative attractiveness of web monetisation versus something like medium?
21:32:40 <nicktr> ahb: we grapple with this at coil
21:32:53 <nicktr> ...creatives typically gravitate towards existing platforms
21:33:03 <nicktr> ...but the run into "who controls their audience"
21:33:14 <nicktr> ...which mostly belongs to the platform
21:33:43 <nicktr> ...and so you can be de-monetised very quickly
21:35:05 <nicktr> ...we would like to open up opportunities for people who wouldn't (for example) have access to the credit card rails
21:35:13 <nicktr> [talks about Moduloop]
21:35:28 <nicktr> q?
21:36:39 <nicktr> john.o'brien: are you reliant on the browser ecosystem to get new users? or is there something else that could be used
21:37:03 <nicktr> ahb: we think of it as a marketplace
21:37:37 <nicktr> ...and at Coil we're focusing on the users, and look for websites to go to a wallet provider like Uphold
21:38:12 <nicktr> ...but we underestimated complexity so we're now focusing on tooling and analytics for creatives
21:38:35 <nicktr> q+ karen
21:38:59 <Karen> Karen has joined #merchantbg
21:40:07 <nicktr> ack Karen
21:40:25 <nicktr> karen: Adrian, you mentioned web games being interested. Could you say more about this use case works, and what types of web games are more inclined to use open payments?
21:40:45 <nicktr> ahb: we're working with esports live
21:41:01 <nicktr> ...and Cycle13 games
21:41:39 <nicktr> q?
21:42:38 <nicktr> nicktr: what's the roadmap for more interactive payments
21:43:19 <nicktr> ahb: at the moment, the UI element is status markers on the extension marker
21:44:00 <nicktr> ...but in the future there could be more interactive models like Tip buttons, but also things like Secure Payment confirmation
21:44:11 <nicktr> q+ dezell
21:44:15 <nicktr> ack nicktr
21:45:32 <nicktr> nicktr: how does that interact with things like screen readers?
21:45:42 <nicktr> ahb: I will find out
21:45:55 <nicktr> ack dezell
21:46:18 <nicktr> dezell:  1) what is the maximum theoretical limit for a “small payment,” and 2) how trusted is the extension?
21:46:18 <nicktr> And… 3) currently, how long does it take a recipient to receive funds?
21:47:09 <nicktr> ahb: we're exploring the maximum at the moment
21:47:32 <nicktr> ...if you make the payments too small, the infrastructure costs begin to overwhelm the value of the payments
21:48:48 <nicktr> ...we're also doing dynamic estimation of the exchange rates
21:49:16 <nicktr> ahb: getting people to install extensions is tough
21:49:29 <nicktr> ...and that's definitely a barrier right now
21:50:45 <nicktr> ahb: payments are real time - in practice it depends on the intermediaries
21:52:15 <nicktr> dezell: thanks for this update
21:52:52 <nicktr> melanie.o'brien: does this work B2B? and can I do one-off payments?
21:53:21 <nicktr> ahb: technically Coil are making the payments *on behalf of the user*
21:53:57 <nicktr> ...so it can be B2B or B2C (and it depends on the wallet provider - Uphold support business accounts)
21:55:11 <nicktr> ...but we can bring on new participants quickly
21:55:44 <nicktr> melanie.o'brien: I do have use case in mind
22:00:23 <nicktr> zakim, take up item 4
22:00:23 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- working on use cases and other group work -- taken up [from nicktr]
22:01:26 <nicktr> nicktr: use cases are being captured here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PsZy0uz0orjsyxB8-30V-rclzdKWlMfcG-Yoa0nRwpE/edit#heading=h.zctnwadrwxf0
22:02:42 <nicktr> ...and Ian Jacobs has worked up a template for working on more detailed use cases: https://github.com/w3c/webpayments/blob/gh-pages/proposals/template.md
22:03:14 <nicktr> ...I'd be delighted to work with anyone who wanted to develop a more detailed view of something that we could then discuss as a group
22:03:24 <nicktr> topic: next meeting
22:04:11 <nicktr> nicktr: we meet again in 2 weeks (Monday 1st march) when we hope to hear about the Web Marketing Business Group from Wendy Seltzer
22:04:44 <nicktr> ...other upcoming sessions include an update on Secure Payment Confirmation and some upcoming privacy changes in browsers
22:05:02 <nicktr> rrsagent, make minutes
22:05:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/15-merchantbg-minutes.html nicktr
22:05:30 <nicktr> rrsagent, set logs public
22:11:32 <nicktr> zakim, bye
22:11:32 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been matthew.orr, phil.archer, ian.jacobs, mark.sadecki, KAren.Myers, Mel.O'Brien, john.o'brien, david.ezell, linda.toth
22:11:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #merchantbg