16:46:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #silver-conf
16:46:25 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/02/11-silver-conf-irc
16:46:37 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make logs public
16:46:54 <sajkaj> Meeting: Silver Conformance Options Subgroup
16:47:02 <sajkaj> Date: 11 Feb 2021
16:47:06 <sajkaj> Chair: sajka
16:47:12 <sajkaj> agenda?
16:47:18 <sajkaj> Agenda+ Agenda Review & Administrative Items
16:47:18 <sajkaj> agenda+ Revisiting Principle #6 re Critical Failures
16:47:18 <sajkaj> agenda+ Use Cases Discussion (Continued)
16:47:18 <sajkaj> agenda+ Other Business
16:47:18 <sajkaj> agenda+ Be Done
16:50:21 <sajkaj> Regrets: Wilco, Azlan
16:50:25 <sajkaj> present+
16:51:39 <sajkaj> regrets+ Bruce
16:52:10 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make minutes
16:52:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/11-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
17:01:34 <Bryan> Bryan has joined #silver-conf
17:01:49 <JF> JF has joined #silver-conf
17:01:58 <JF> Present+
17:02:01 <JF> AGenda?
17:03:19 <PeterKorn> PeterKorn has joined #silver-conf
17:03:22 <PeterKorn> present+
17:03:36 <JF> zakim, who is here?
17:03:36 <Zakim> Present: sajkaj, JF, PeterKorn
17:03:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see PeterKorn, JF, Bryan, RRSAgent, Zakim, sajkaj, MichaelC, Jemma, Rachael, trackbot
17:04:01 <John_Northup> John_Northup has joined #silver-conf
17:04:10 <Bryan> present+
17:04:42 <John_Northup> present+
17:04:47 <John_Northup> scribe: John_Northup
17:05:33 <KimD> KimD has joined #silver-conf
17:05:40 <sarahhorton> sarahhorton has joined #silver-conf
17:06:01 <sarahhorton> present+
17:06:47 <KimD> present+
17:06:49 <sajkaj> zakim, next item
17:06:49 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Administrative Items -- taken up [from sajkaj]
17:07:13 <Jemma> present+
17:07:30 <JF> zakim, who is here?
17:07:31 <Zakim> Present: sajkaj, JF, PeterKorn, Bryan, John_Northup, sarahhorton, KimD, Jemma
17:07:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see sarahhorton, KimD, John_Northup, PeterKorn, JF, Bryan, RRSAgent, Zakim, sajkaj, MichaelC, Jemma, Rachael, trackbot
17:07:52 <JF> Present+ Jeanne Spellman
17:07:58 <John_Northup> Janina: Some inconsistencies between google doc and working draft.
17:08:23 <sajkaj> zakim, next item
17:08:23 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Revisiting Principle #6 re Critical Failures -- taken up [from sajkaj]
17:09:00 <John_Northup> Janina: Revisiting principle 6; what is a critical error.
17:09:12 <sajkaj> q?
17:10:33 <sajkaj> q+ to reconsider programatic solutions to flash, audio on load, etc
17:10:46 <PeterKorn> q+
17:10:58 <Rachael> q+
17:11:08 <sajkaj> q?
17:11:38 <John_Northup> Jeanne: Rachael and I do not disagree on critical errors; it's the final resolution of the critical error. Concern that critical error for flashing (zero) may be averaged out by higher scores in other areas and thus overlooked.
17:12:01 <PeterKorn> https://w3c.github.io/silver/guidelines/#conformance-levels-0
17:12:02 <sajkaj> ack p
17:12:12 <PeterKorn> For content that conforms to the bronze level:  The total score and score within each of the functional categories MUST be at least 3.5; and Views and processes MUST NOT have critical errors.
17:14:00 <sajkaj> q?
17:14:25 <John_Northup> Peter: Doesn't see how the calculation method could result in the outcome that Jeanne describes.
17:15:54 <John_Northup> Jeanne & Peter: Discussion on calculations and possible outcomes.
17:16:43 <sajkaj> ack ra
17:17:36 <sajkaj> q?
17:17:38 <John_Northup> Rachael: Low scoring items that are not critical do balance out, but the purpose of the critcial error is to be a hard stop. Would not agree with a model that passed critical errors.
17:18:09 <JF> Q+
17:18:24 <PeterKorn> q+
17:18:50 <sajkaj> ack jf
17:19:14 <Rachael> q+
17:19:25 <John_Northup> John F: Ensure we are not focusing on flashing; other errors are critical.
17:19:39 <John_Northup> Janina: ... but flashing is life-threatening...
17:19:57 <John_Northup> John F: Other things can be life threatening too depending on content and context.
17:20:05 <sajkaj> ack p
17:20:53 <Bryan> q+
17:21:04 <John_Northup> Peter: There has been a discussion about the difference between content itself being life-threatening, and the context being life-threatening.
17:21:11 <Rachael> q-
17:22:32 <John_Northup> Peter: Marvel film trailer may trigger a seizure. Does it make a difference if the content is third-party?  Do we treat this content differently if there is a warning?
17:25:12 <John_Northup> Janina: Proposal to look at WCAG 2; possibility to programmatically correct problems; e.g., user agent detecting and stopping flashing.
17:25:27 <sajkaj> ack sa
17:25:27 <Zakim> sajkaj, you wanted to reconsider programatic solutions to flash, audio on load, etc
17:25:30 <sajkaj> ack br
17:25:36 <sajkaj> q?
17:26:30 <Jemma> q+
17:26:46 <John_Northup> Brian: Challenging/impossible to catch every use case; need to keep it simple to drive adoption.
17:27:07 <sajkaj> ack je
17:27:48 <John_Northup> Jemma: If blocking a video is preferable to warning, how to score that?
17:27:51 <John_Northup> Janina: Don't know yet.
17:28:06 <sajkaj> q?
17:28:34 <John_Northup> Peter: Focus on creating use cases; then will move toward solutions.
17:28:53 <sajkaj> q?
17:29:04 <John_Northup> Jeanne: Use cases valuable at this stage.
17:29:49 <John_Northup> Peter: More to discuss about bugs?
17:30:04 <Rachael> q+
17:30:06 <John_Northup> Peter: Do we have an opinion on what should happen when a critical error is found?
17:30:46 <John_Northup> John F: Do you mean time frame for remediation? A score is at a certain point in time...
17:30:58 <sajkaj> q+
17:31:26 <John_Northup> John F: Discussion of lag time between scoring and remediation - if no followup evaluation, then old score is still the latest.
17:31:34 <Bryan> q+
17:31:38 <Rachael> q-
17:31:44 <sajkaj> ack ja
17:31:49 <sajkaj> ack sa
17:31:49 <John_Northup> Janina: Scheduling by priority...
17:32:49 <sajkaj> q?
17:33:27 <sarahhorton> q+
17:33:28 <John_Northup> Jeanne: Met yesterday with DHS Trusted Tester, discussed measuring a11y errors compared to other bugs. They were cautiously enthusiastic.
17:34:59 <John_Northup> Jeanne: Goal is a11y bugs treated same as other bugs. Just as critical as security or usability bugs.
17:35:32 <JF> Q+ to note that a11y, security and privacy bugs are *MORE* critical than other software bugs, due to legal obligations.
17:35:52 <John_Northup> Jeanne: They are enthusiastic about the point system and critical errors because it helps with VPAT
17:36:00 <sajkaj> q?
17:36:04 <sajkaj> ack br
17:36:47 <John_Northup> Bryan: Likes prioritizing by severity.
17:37:08 <sajkaj> ack sa
17:37:28 <John_Northup> Sarah: Are we talking about bugs as equivalent to critical errors, or bugs with different degrees of severity?
17:37:44 <John_Northup> Janina: Trying to specify that a11y bugs are as important as other bugs; not de-prioritized.
17:37:50 <John_Northup> q+
17:38:05 <sajkaj> q?
17:38:41 <sajkaj> ack jf
17:38:42 <Zakim> JF, you wanted to note that a11y, security and privacy bugs are *MORE* critical than other software bugs, due to legal obligations.
17:38:59 <JF> Precious metals like gold and silver are measured using the “troy” system where there are 12 ounces in a pound. If you normalize everything to mass a pound of feathers is 454 grams and a pound of gold is 373 grams, therefore the feathers are technically heavier.
17:39:07 <John_Northup> John F: Bugs related to security, privacy, a11y... not all bugs are created equal.
17:40:01 <John_Northup> John F: Legal obligation puts a11y ahead of other bugs.
17:40:18 <sajkaj> ack jo
17:40:30 <PeterKorn> q+
17:41:02 <John_Northup> John N: Likes the idea of commingling a11y and other types of bugs, so that a11y isn't diminished.
17:41:41 <sajkaj> q?
17:41:45 <sajkaj> ack p
17:42:38 <John_Northup> Peter: So much content is programmatically-generated--a bug in the script that generates content over several pages, which may become critical.
17:42:51 <sarahhorton> q+
17:43:27 <John_Northup> Janina: The challenge is finding those instances.
17:43:46 <sajkaj> q?
17:44:31 <sajkaj> ack sa
17:45:08 <John_Northup> Sarah: Perhaps not refer to "critical bugs" due to confusion with existing term "critical errors".
17:45:26 <sajkaj> q?
17:46:05 <Jemma> q+
17:46:13 <Bryan> q+
17:46:18 <John_Northup> Peter: Discussing equivalence across diff types of bugs (security vs a11y)...
17:46:20 <JF> Q+
17:46:20 <sajkaj> ack je
17:47:02 <John_Northup> Jemma: Seeking clarity around critical errors
17:48:45 <John_Northup> Sarah: Not quite far enough along with Errors work to definitively answer.
17:49:55 <John_Northup> Bryan: Is the word "critical" a stumbling block, even though the general principle is appropriate...
17:49:55 <sajkaj> q?
17:50:02 <sajkaj> ack br
17:50:50 <John_Northup> Sarah: Principle is sound. Use case introduces the issue of time... should that factor into the conformance model...
17:51:13 <PeterKorn> q+
17:52:25 <sajkaj> ack jf
17:54:17 <John_Northup> John F: Just because something is critical, the fix may not take immediate effect. Score could change moment by moment as content changes...
17:54:22 <sajkaj> ack p
17:55:24 <JF> Time issue *IS* real, but shold it have an impact on "Score"?
17:56:08 <sarahhorton> q+
17:56:43 <Jemma> I think that  Peter is touching the issue of impact scope of "critical error"
17:56:56 <John_Northup> Peter: Acknowleging the time issue, while we also try to consider a11y in the context of other bugs...
17:56:59 <John_Northup> q+
17:57:00 <sajkaj> ack s
17:58:00 <JF> Q+ to note that "culture" is a conce3rn in large orgs, maybe less so at "Joe's Pizzaria"
17:58:07 <John_Northup> Sarah: Much about culture/practice/procedures that should weigh into conformance - beyond just products...
18:00:23 <PeterKorn> bye bye
18:01:53 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/11-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
18:01:58 <sajkaj> zakim, bye
18:01:58 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been sajkaj, JF, PeterKorn, Bryan, John_Northup, sarahhorton, KimD, Jemma, Jeanne, Spellman
18:01:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #silver-conf
18:01:59 <sajkaj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/11-silver-conf-minutes.html sajkaj
18:03:57 <sajkaj> rrsagent, bye
18:03:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items