14:55:07 RRSAgent has joined #pwe 14:55:07 logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/02/02-pwe-irc 14:55:36 Meeting: PWE 14:55:40 Chair: Tzviya 14:55:48 Date: 2021-02-02 14:56:02 Agenda+ Welcome back, introduce chairs 14:56:02 Agenda+ Review charter [3] 14:56:02 Agenda+ Ombuds update 14:56:02 Agenda+ Nomination Guidance [4] 14:56:02 Agenda+ AOB 14:57:30 Ralph has joined #pwe 14:58:56 present+ 14:59:10 present+ Tzviya, Nishad 14:59:57 present+ WendReid 15:00:41 present+ DanAppelquist 15:00:47 wendyreid_ has joined #pwe 15:00:56 present+ JudyBrewer 15:01:00 present+ Estella 15:01:10 present+ TerenceEden 15:02:24 present+ SheilaMoussavi 15:02:26 dka_ has joined #pwe 15:02:28 Nishad has joined #PWE 15:02:38 present+ Dan_Appelquist 15:02:45 Scribe: Dan 15:02:47 present+ AnnetteGreiner 15:02:51 ScribeNick: dka_ 15:03:04 edent has joined #pwe 15:04:08 jeff has joined #pwe 15:04:17 present+ 15:04:39 regrets+ 15:04:53 estella has joined #pwe 15:04:54 Tzviya: 1st item agenda: intro to new chairs 15:05:06 ... we'll do that into when liz and leonie join. 15:05:17 annette_g_ has joined #pwe 15:05:18 sheila has joined #pwe 15:05:23 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2021Jan/0008.html 15:05:26 zakim, next item 15:05:26 agendum 1 -- Welcome back, introduce chairs -- taken up [from tzviya] 15:05:34 present+ 15:05:48 ... an overview: I'm Tzviya - I work for Wiley and I'm a member of the AB. I've been chairing PWE for ~2 years. We decided to merge it with IDCG. 15:06:03 ... liz and leonie can introduce themselves. 15:06:40 ... we talked about merging the github repos - for now we will keep them separate. I'm working with Tess on how to work with multiple repos. 15:07:03 q? 15:07:13 ... issues related to cepc and ombuds in pwe; other issues in idcg repo. 15:07:18 zakim, next item 15:07:18 agendum 2 -- Review charter -- taken up [from 3] 15:07:23 https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/blob/master/PWECharter.md 15:07:48 Tzviya: charter - we drafted a simple charter - went back to original charter for idcg - have pasted it above. 15:08:23 ... idcg started out as a place to share experiences ... we kind of lost that ... one of the most important aspects is to bring that back. 15:08:36 Judy has joined #pwe 15:09:05 ... we will have a discussion forum where we can talk about issues we are facing - if someone faces a difficult issue. People should feel comfortable turning here if they have something they want to discuss. 15:09:15 ... we can vote on that charter at our next meeting. 15:09:26 q+ 15:09:29 ... right now we are leaving both web sites up. 15:09:30 ack je 15:10:24 Jeff: before we vote on this we should look at the standard template - we don't have to include everything. We'd like there to be a section about chairing. So it's understood that these are not free-wheeling "smoke-filled rooms" - that there is a process. 15:10:45 Tzviya: For the most part, the template is geared towards deliverables... however we can add a section about chairing. 15:11:05 regrets+ Léonie 15:11:09 zakim, next 15:11:09 I don't understand 'next', dka_ 15:11:13 zakim, do it. 15:11:13 I don't understand 'do it', dka_ 15:11:18 zakim, next item 15:11:18 agendum 3 -- Ombuds update -- taken up [from tzviya] 15:11:38 Tzviya: next is ombuds update. 15:12:23 Tzviya: we held a meeting about ombuds. update from Judy. 15:12:52 Judy has joined #pwe 15:13:08 https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/wiki/PWE-Roadmap 15:13:27 Judy: we went through the ombuds section of the pwe roadmap. On the PWE roadmap there are 4 different areas of work - 1st is revamp of ombuds program, then investigating, training, procecures. 15:14:00 -> https://www.w3.org/2021/01/19-pwe-minutes.html#t02 19-Jan discussion of PWE Roadmap 15:14:09 ... we went ombuds tasks... we clarified what some of the items were. we adjusted the other time lines where we needed to change the priority of things. 15:14:48 ... we spent most of a call just walking through that. We got on the same page. Now we have to do the work. We need to do some meetings outside of these general meetings to get on task. 15:15:03 ... we will also need a similar meeting to walk through the procedures section. 15:15:37 ... my suggestion would be to schedule a walk through of procedures section in next week or 2. 15:16:15 i|Tzviya: For the most part|-> https://w3c.github.io/cg-charter/CGCharter.html Community Group Charter template 15:16:15 Tzviya: thanks for that. I know that we're working on the research part of the ombuds program. We got a little stuck. 15:16:39 Judy: we need to regather the info we found talking about intntl assoc of ombuds. then bring that here. 15:16:53 ... everything else is ready to be worked on and we have folks assigned. 15:17:07 ... we need to get the procedures stuff going as well. 15:17:35 Tzviya: [intros] 15:17:59 [round of intros of those on the call] 15:23:35 zakim, next item 15:23:35 agendum 4 -- Nomination Guidance -- taken up [from 4] 15:23:43 https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/18 15:23:54 ^^ Create nomination guidance #18 15:24:43 Jemma has joined #pwe 15:25:06 Jeff: on this issue - general background - quite a discussion last year on w3c having nomination guidance. To be nominated for participation in w3c or in a senior group or for a chair... that we should think deeply about diversity. 15:25:19 ... original proposal would be to put something simple in our guidance - proposal from Dan... 15:25:39 ... as I shared on github, w3m has approved this. we sent it to the AC. So this is now our official guidance. 15:25:50 ... this will be part of what we use in our guidance. 15:26:00 https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/18#issuecomment-693308989 15:26:13 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2021JanMar/0009.html "Call to action: Guidance for diversity now part of our join group pages; elections" [to AC Reps and Chairs, 21-Jan] 15:26:42 ... as w3m was processing this we looked at more than the original recommendation - we looked at the comment Toby had made where he had proposed we make available for w3c members to sign on a voluntary basis a pledge which has to to do with diversty in participation of w3c working groups. 15:26:58 ... no specifics on the language, etc... we thought it was a good idea. 15:27:16 q? 15:27:28 +1 on this idea. 15:27:39 present+ JemmaKu 15:27:58 Jeff: is this a good idea or bad idea? next steps are to create a language of a pledge, socialize with the AC etc... 15:28:00 present+ Ada 15:28:34 present+ KeithJones 15:28:36 present+ 15:28:38 Judy_ has joined #pwe 15:28:54 Sheila: I do like the idea. One of the things people care about - guarantee of inclusivity and safety once folks have joined. We need to make sure we create an environment where one people enter they feel safe. 15:28:55 q+ to address Sheila's point 15:28:55 +1 to sheila 15:29:09 +1 to sheila 15:29:22 +1 to sheila 15:29:33 ... this should also include a pledge to make a space where folks can join safely and comfortably. We benefit w3c by bringing folks in but may not be benefiting them if not a comfortable space. 15:29:34 q+ 15:29:39 ... we would be remiss to not include that. 15:29:41 +1 15:29:58 s/where one/where once 15:30:51 -> https://github.com/w3c/idcg/wiki/Making-W3C-More-Welcoming "Making W3C More Welcoming" [IDCG wiki] 15:30:53 Judy: on the idea of giving AC members the option of signing such a pledge - I think that's great. I think Sheila's comment is relevant. Roadmap in IDCG - we had several suggestions there on how to improve the welcoming environment in w3c. I like the idea of building that up front into a pledge. 15:31:01 ack je 15:31:01 jeff, you wanted to address Sheila's point 15:31:05 ... does anyone have starter text we could react to? 15:32:05 q+ to distinguish betweeen CoC and inclusivness 15:32:23 Jeff: Expanding on Sheila's point in 2 ways - making this a safe environment for people to participate in falls into 2 different bucks - one way is things like the code of conduct and implementation - and enhancing that. other part of making a safe environment which says.. 15:33:12 ack wendyreid_ 15:33:15 ... people don't get enough respect inside their own orgs for participating in standards. It might be interesting to include in the pledge wording which says the company [or org] appreciates their participation in standards. 15:33:24 Wendy: First, +1 to what Sheila said. 15:33:44 -> https://github.com/w3c/AB-memberonly/issues/53 "Appreciating standards work #53" 15:34:32 ... one of the steps that is important - more diverse members - 100% support - we need an accompanying pledge - that we (directed at pledge, team, governance group) - that I as a chair also pledge to make sure my group is a welcoming environment - that I've read the CEPC and pledge to [implement it]. 15:34:50 +1 to Wendy 15:34:53 ... at TPAC we did wonderful training for the breakout leaders at TPAC. I'd like to see similar training for chairs. 15:34:56 ack sheila 15:34:59 ack me 15:34:59 tzviya, you wanted to distinguish betweeen CoC and inclusivness 15:35:23 present+ Rhian 15:35:24 Jeff, in response to your question: the relevance of the safety piece to recruitment is that you need to align your language with the reality internally. in other words, need to ensure that our recruitment language outlines the challenges and benefits to joining as someone from an underrepresented background. 15:35:27 Tzviya: vehemently agree with Sheila and Wendy. Great to have this pledge - and we have to say "inclusiveness" but we have to explain what inclusiveness means. 15:35:32 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VggAqa0xOwM&feature=youtu.be 15:35:38 ... we need to have some training. 15:35:41 [AB issue on Appreciating standards work --> https://github.com/w3c/AB-memberonly/issues/53 which came from an IDCG comment on issue #18 --> https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/18#issuecomment-704371853] 15:35:47 [Thanks, Sheila.] 15:35:51 tobie has joined #pwe 15:35:55 ... this is a video that explains inclusiveness and bias, e.g. 15:36:14 ... if you try to intellectually traing people about bias - then people won't get past their own biases. 15:36:28 [Tzviya cites Tinna Nielsen, "Nudge behavior for a more inclusive world", TEDxAarhus] 15:36:39 ... so we all strive for a welcoming environment but how can we make people feel they belong. 15:37:14 q? 15:37:16 ... can be terrifying to join a TPAC for first time. 15:37:22 Present+ 15:37:38 Tzviya: action item is to figure out how to include inclusiveness in this pledge. 15:37:42 q+ to ask if there are any available guidelines with DOs and DON'Ts 15:37:47 ack estella 15:37:47 estella, you wanted to ask if there are any available guidelines with DOs and DON'Ts 15:37:55 q+ 15:38:18 Estella: question - are there guidelines for sharing dos and don'ts? 15:38:37 agenda? 15:38:40 ... sometimes difficult to overcome own bias. Having proper guidelines will help people. 15:38:46 ack annette_g_ 15:39:15 Annette: One idea - having people from underrepresented groups vet whatever text we put into an agreement. 15:39:25 ... I think that makes a lot of sense. 15:39:33 Tzviya: good point. 15:39:58 Tzviya: estella, to some extent the CEPC itself is a list of dos and don'ts - but we don't have guidance on welcoming new people. 15:40:28 ... we need specific wording for the nomination guidance. we can work on that offline. 15:41:01 Tobie: LF has some resources on this. I can look at them and come back. Could be useful for this group. 15:41:09 Tzviya: Please put a comment on the issue. 15:41:31 agenda+ issue 17 15:41:31 https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/17 15:41:42 zakim, next item 15:41:42 agendum 5 -- AOB -- taken up [from tzviya] 15:41:45 ^^Create inclusive language references #17 15:41:48 topic: Create inclusive language references #17 15:42:12 s/topic/subtopic 15:42:24 Tzviya: inclusive language - can we agree to a reference for inclusive language and get it out to the wider community? 15:42:28 q+ 15:42:33 ack je 15:43:33 Jeff: the team - have been active in putting a plan together to clean up the known problems - e.g. removing master/slave - helpful points to working groups - we have a plan for the known problems but the problem is the unknown problems. 15:43:53 ... if the work here can point the team to the right lexicon that would be a good next step. 15:44:05 Tzviya: I would welcome feedback. 15:44:23 q+ 15:44:24 ... the issue of pronouns in things like use case documents is a hot topic. 15:44:31 ... i think we should offer guidance. 15:44:36 ack jeff 15:44:48 ARIA changed the github name from "master" to "main". 15:45:06 Jeff: 3rd category is the unresolved problems - use of pronouns an example - known issue but unresolved problem. 15:45:58 Tzviya: question for those non-native english speakers. All the referenes are in english - we do primarily publish in english but we do translations into e.g. french, japanese, korean... 15:46:22 Judy: we have up to 26 translations on e.g. the a11y guidelines. 15:46:57 Tzviya: AOB 15:47:12 subtopic: Translations 15:47:27 q+ 15:47:46 Jemma: on translation - it's important to have plain language english language. The issue comes when english is written in a very complex way - rather than easy to read. We should also focus on plain language. 15:47:46 +1 15:47:52 q+ 15:47:54 +1 15:47:57 q- later 15:47:57 q+ 15:48:02 scribe+ 15:48:07 q- 15:48:22 Dan: in the TAG we often find that we feedback [plain language] issues 15:48:29 ... when we evalute explainers or APIs 15:48:39 ... asking people to use simpler terms 15:48:56 ... part of our recent review of the Design Principles document was to make the language simpler 15:49:19 ... people in this industry who are native speakers and have expertise tend to use complex and flowery language 15:49:49 ... this also seems to me to be related to the question of pronouns in Use Case documents 15:49:56 ... maybe there's an overlap on both issues 15:50:01 ... the TAG reviews Use Case documents 15:50:23 ... and might be able to add these to our review criteria 15:50:29 q? 15:50:34 https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/17 15:50:36 ack estella 15:51:12 s/subtopic: Translations/subtopic: Plain Language 15:51:14 Estella: directed to last comment on plain language - fully agree - just reminding that EO group - we have guidlines on plain language and pronouns - 15:51:19 ack Judy_ 15:51:20 ... I will put link in IRC 15:51:26 https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#other_words_and_phrases 15:51:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/02-pwe-minutes.html Ralph 15:52:05 Judy: on WAI we have been trying to do some work on plainer language - with the goal of making our specs more translatable. We looked at developing dedicated glossaries - to support volunteer translations... 15:52:25 ... extremely difficult. Getting more translatable language guidance has been hard. 15:52:32 ... we need a better strategy. 15:52:43 https://www.plainlanguage.gov/ 15:52:45 +1 with Judy 15:53:00 Tzviya: someone who has worked in this area - focusing on voting instructions - lots of resources there. 15:53:02 +1 15:54:21 Jemma: based on my recent experience reviewing Korean translation of EU a11y guidlines - most challenging was how to say specific words in Korean - certain words that Korean govt is already using. .. spending a lot of time finding the right translation in Korean. 15:54:34 ... having a glossary of tems in different language a good idea. 15:54:55 Tzviya: a lot of ideas on how to make docs more readable. Some overlap with the TAG on ways we can implement this. 15:55:05 q+ 15:55:11 ack ada 15:55:40 Ada: The issue which we'd already marked for the agenda - 15:55:43 q+ to ask about next meetings 15:55:51 -> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/issues/162 Update the term 'Prejudice' in the Glossary #162 15:56:05 ack Judy_ 15:56:05 Judy_, you wanted to ask about next meetings 15:56:05 Tzviya: a PR and lots fo comments on the associated issue - the def of descrimination in CEPC - we will we discuss next ime. 15:56:33 Judy: Logistical question - are we going to weekly joint meetings or bi-weekly? 15:56:42 Tzviya: we are meeting every other week. 15:57:15 ... it is at this time at least for now - we will re-asses when time changes happen. 15:00 UTC. Next meeting will be on 16th of Feb. 15:57:30 Sorry I have to attend another meeting. 15:58:01 Judy: task force walk through on policy and procedures? 15:58:14 Tzviya: Go ahead. 16:00:06 zakim, end meeting 16:00:06 As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, Tzviya, Nishad, WendReid, DanAppelquist, JudyBrewer, Estella, TerenceEden, SheilaMoussavi, Dan_Appelquist, AnnetteGreiner, jeff, 16:00:10 ... annette_g_, JemmaKu, Ada, KeithJones, wendyreid_, Rhian, tobie 16:00:10 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:00:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/02-pwe-minutes.html Zakim 16:00:12 I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:00:17 Zakim has left #pwe 16:01:01 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/internal-idcg/2021Jan/0000.html PWE/IDCG Meeting Schedule 16:01:08 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:01:08 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/02-pwe-minutes.html Ralph 16:03:08 i/Judy: Logistical question/subtopic: Meeting Schedule 16:03:16 s/Sorry I have to attend another meeting.// 16:03:20 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:03:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/02-pwe-minutes.html Ralph