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14:16:38 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/01/29-epub-irc
14:16:40 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:16:41 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
14:16:42 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2021-01-29: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Jan/0045.html
14:16:43 <ivan> Chair: wendy
14:16:43 <ivan> Date: 2021-01-29
14:16:43 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Jan/0045.html
14:16:43 <ivan> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telco
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14:58:19 <ivan> present+
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14:59:54 <ivan> regrets+ dauwhe
15:01:17 <ivan> present+ charles
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15:04:12 <MattChan> scribe+
15:04:25 <George> present+
15:05:19 <MattChan> wendyreid: welcome everyone, today i want to get updates on a couple things. First is the a11y TF
15:05:23 <ivan> topic: a11y taskforce report
15:05:26 <MattChan> TOPIC: Update on Accessibility TF
15:05:34 <avneeshsingh> Jan 14: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/epub-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2021-01-14-epub-a11y
15:05:42 <avneeshsingh> Jan 28: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/epub-wg/Meetings/Minutes/2021-01-28-epub-a11y
15:05:55 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: these are minutes of 2 meetings in which we made some important decisions
15:06:14 <MattChan> ... decision for referring to latest version of WCAG
15:06:33 <MattChan> ... we will always point to latest version of WCAG, with provision of referring to 2.0 for backwards compatibility
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15:06:44 <ivan> present+
15:06:44 <ivan> present+ brady
15:06:47 <duga> present+
15:07:05 <MattChan> ... also, US and Canada are quite aggressive with keeping up with a11y spec
15:07:10 <MattChan> ... other regions not quite so much
15:07:20 <MattChan> ... don't want to discourage them from keeping up with a11y spec
15:07:35 <MattChan> ... similarly, strongly rec AA, but allow A
15:07:56 <MattChan> ... adapting or improving spec to keep in line with EUAA
15:08:14 <MattChan> ... gpellegrino, luc, and cristina have done a mapping between EUAA and spec
15:08:41 <MattChan> ... main differences are in requiring MO, and in adding a statement that DRM should not interfere with a11y
15:08:56 <MattChan> ... we are in a good position to relese FPWD in Feb
15:09:07 <MattChan> ... will discuss with Matt re exact date
15:09:07 <ivan> q+
15:09:32 <tzviya> q+
15:09:41 <MattChan> ... would also highlight one Q (not for discussion now): Should we rename epub a11y to something more generic?
15:10:09 <MattChan> ... a more generic name way garner more attention, but some things, like MO, are specific to epub
15:10:22 <ivan> present+ hadrien
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15:10:33 <wendyreid> ack ivan
15:10:37 <Hadrien> present+
15:10:57 <MattChan> ivan: does it mean that you want the WG to vote on publishing FPWG now?
15:11:05 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: not yet, still need to discuss with Matt
15:11:11 <MattChan> ... will get back to the WG after
15:11:11 <wendyreid> ack tzviya
15:11:17 <ivan> s/FPWG/FPWD/
15:11:34 <MattChan> tzviya: whether this document needs approval by APA
15:12:04 <MattChan> ... not really concern about our handing of a11y, but more about how this spec touches upon areas that affect publishing in general (e.g. EUAA)
15:12:17 <MattChan> George: APA normally does a review of the FPWD
15:12:38 <MattChan> ... because of the importance of this (owing to the EUAA), maybe we can send them a version before the FPWD
15:13:01 <MattChan> ... but we probably want to wait for Matt and avneeshsingh to make some of the changes we discussed recently
15:13:14 <ivan> q+
15:13:23 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: to clarify, the horizontal reviews kick in on publication of the FPWD
15:13:28 <MattChan> ... no need to do it before then
15:13:38 <ivan> q-
15:13:41 <MattChan> ... don't want to delay the timing by going to APA first
15:13:47 <ivan> +1 to avneeshsingh
15:13:56 <MattChan> ... the FPWD is just a stake in the ground, still a lot of work to do after until CR
15:14:12 <ivan> q+
15:14:23 <MattChan> ... just a note, changing the name has strategic considerations as it make it harder to defend the epub specific parts
15:14:51 <MattChan> ... last time we gave APA a request, we were delayed by a month before moving forward
15:15:21 <MattChan> George: so this FPWD will probably be unchanged for a while, and june is an important date for EUAA, so FPWD would be the version reviewed by Europe
15:15:44 <MattChan> avneeshsingh: once the FPWD is release, continuous changes will be published by the automated publishing system?
15:15:49 <MattChan> wendyreid: no, we don't have that turned on
15:16:08 <MattChan> ... but we can republish as soon as the WG approves it
15:16:24 <MattChan> ... so changes could be live, within, say, a week of the WG deciding it?
15:16:34 <wendyreid> ack ivan
15:16:45 <MattChan> ivan: the last thing about the publication
15:17:09 <MattChan> ... automatic publication means that there is a specific branch for each doc, and if there is a merge to this branch, then auto publishing will kick in
15:17:21 <MattChan> ... its not instant in terms of merging PR
15:17:41 <MattChan> ... but if matt makes a merge into that special branch, then auto publishing will kick in
15:17:57 <MattChan> ... if we ask APA for review, they will review not only a11y, but the whole spec (2 other docs as well)
15:18:14 <MattChan> ... APA may decide to delete review of the 2 other docs back to a11y TF, but formally they review the whole thing
15:18:53 <MattChan> ... also, there are procedures in the sense that we have to flag issues after publishing FPWD
15:19:02 <CharlesL> q+
15:19:21 <MattChan> wendyreid: the plan was that we were going to publishing another draft of the other documents along side a11y FPWD
15:19:34 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
15:19:36 <MattChan> ... we'll use this timing to trigger other horizontal reviews
15:19:45 <MattChan> CharlesL: don't we also have to initiate a tag review?
15:20:06 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, but we're going to time that with getting everything published, so everything can be reviewed at once
15:20:14 <MattChan> TOPIC: Internationalization
15:20:47 <MattChan> ivan: i started on this piece, i18n guys have a self test which you are supposed to check your spec against
15:20:59 <ivan> Self test: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/wiki/Internationalization-self-test-for-the-EPUB-3.3.-spec
15:21:18 <MattChan> ... here it is, with my markup and comment
15:21:37 <MattChan> ... i also added background that is mostly for i18n moreso than for us
15:21:49 <MattChan> ... if you see anything that needs to be changed, go ahead
15:22:11 <MattChan> ... there are places where i didn't know the answer, or points of contention that will need to be discussed
15:22:30 <MattChan> ... if we agree with this as is, we can mark for i18n and get them involved
15:22:50 <MattChan> ... don't want to go into all details now, but the biggest issue is probably the bidirectional text
15:23:03 <MattChan> ... i think we are more or less alright, because we have the dir attribute...
15:23:35 <MattChan> ... to clarify, the only thing we have to check is the package document, everything else is under the XML, CSS, etc. specs
15:23:43 <MattChan> ... but we have to check our own metadata document
15:23:48 <MattChan> ... there are 2 things to mention
15:24:23 <MattChan> ... one, in the RS doc, there is sec 3.2, which talks about the package document
15:24:44 <ivan> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/rs/#package-doc
15:24:48 <MattChan> ... it does pick some items like what to do with identifier, etc.
15:24:59 <MattChan> ... i think we should add something about how dir is managed
15:25:33 <MattChan> ... two, there is one point where there is a contradition between what i18n reqires and what I believe we should do according to the spec
15:25:52 <MattChan> ... this is what happens if there is text in which dir is set, and unicode in text has also directional note
15:26:09 <MattChan> ... there is remark in spec that says unicode inherent directionality takes precedent over dir
15:26:19 <MattChan> ... but this exact opposite of what i18n asks for
15:26:50 <MattChan> ... this is a classic example for bidirectional text, e.g. text that starts with latin character, but the text is hebrew
15:27:02 <MattChan> ... this should be marked dir rtl
15:27:14 <MattChan> ... but spec seems to say that unicode implicit direction takes precedence
15:27:18 <MattChan> ... seems like a bug in the spec
15:27:49 <MattChan> ... also don't know what happens if title text contains unicode marker for rtl, does RS correctly handle that?
15:27:57 <MattChan> ... spec should say that it should be handled
15:28:32 <MattChan> ... these were the areas where i saw we had issues to discuss
15:28:53 <MattChan> ... Dave had also open issues, e.g. reading direction in spine
15:29:04 <MattChan> ... also, do we say that default of dir is ltr in spec?
15:29:17 <MattChan> ... so please look at all of these issues, and consult the wiki above
15:30:09 <MattChan> ... if we arrive at consensus on all these open issues, then I can flag them (and the wiki) for consultation with the i18n folks
15:30:25 <MattChan> wendyreid: i don't think we say that we have a default directionality
15:30:32 <MattChan> ... we probably use the HTML default
15:30:42 <MattChan> duga: presumably the default has to be auto?
15:30:54 <MattChan> ivan: that was the other thing, dir doesn't have an auto setting
15:31:00 <MattChan> ... not sure what auto would mean
15:31:32 <MattChan> ... another issue, in HTML if you have a <a> there is hreflang attribute
15:31:42 <MattChan> ... (i.e. lang of the linked resource)
15:31:58 <MattChan> ... we don't have that in the package document
15:33:06 <MattChan> wendyreid: any questions about i18n?
15:33:17 <MattChan> ... so we haven't submitted this to them yet
15:33:38 <MattChan> ivan: i would love it if people would review the wiki i prepared above
15:33:47 <duga> I will look it over
15:34:05 <MattChan> ... other possibility is that i could raise them as separate issues without involving i18n for now, and we can discuss issue by issue
15:34:32 <MattChan> duga: separate issues are nice, easy to keep track of things
15:34:57 <MattChan> ivan: okay, i'll create the separate issues
15:35:24 <MattChan> wendyreid: we have to do the other checklists for the other horizontal reviews (incl. security)
15:35:32 <MattChan> Topic: AOB?
15:36:14 <MattChan> wendyreid: okay, there are open issues in github right now
15:36:18 <MattChan> ... would be good to get input
15:36:30 <MattChan> ... particularly page progression direction, and conformance re. MO
15:36:39 <MattChan> ... have a great weekend, see you all next week!
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15:37:00 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:37:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/29-epub-minutes.html ivan
15:37:15 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
15:37:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ivan, gpellegrino, avneeshsingh, MattChan, LauraB, MasakazuKitahara, toshiakikoike, wendyreid, tzviya, charles, BenSchroeter, CharlesL,
15:37:18 <Zakim> ... george, billk, mgarrish, Bill_Kasdorf, brady, duga, hadrien
15:37:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:37:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/29-epub-minutes.html Zakim
15:37:20 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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15:38:01 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
15:38:01 <RRSAgent> I see no action items