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12:17:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:17:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
12:17:12 <trackbot> Date: 28 January 2021
12:17:12 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
12:17:18 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#Timelines_and_
12:17:51 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+  icons https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aRoYev1aAIHhIq37Itt96ueBwLh5zXMUeJBYxL0MCkQ/edit#
12:18:43 <LisaSeemanKest>  agenda+ issue Motor automaticity and object permanence https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2021Jan/0048.html
12:19:04 <LisaSeemanKest>  agenda+ issue person first
12:19:25 <LisaSeemanKest>  agenda+ issue etter incorporate the use of spatial representations #136 https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/136
12:20:26 <LisaSeemanKest>  agenda+ issue vissual process https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/137
12:23:38 <LisaSeemanKest>  agenda+ issue lang tags in more details 160 https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/160
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13:03:00 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
13:06:25 <LisaSeemanKest> regrets, John Rochford
13:08:10 <LisaSeemanKest> https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/136
14:00:32 <LisaSeemanKest> regrets, John Rochford
14:00:36 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
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14:05:58 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ Bold keywords in how it helps? 2 words per thing
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14:51:09 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
14:51:37 <LisaSeemanKest> rrsagent, make minutes
14:51:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/28-coga-minutes.html LisaSeemanKest
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14:59:49 <stevelee> present+
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15:00:01 <Jennie> present+
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15:00:47 <JustineP> scribe: JustineP
15:00:50 <LisaSeemanKest> scribe: JustineP
15:01:09 <Fazio> present+
15:01:14 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:01:14 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#Timelines_and_ -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:01:29 <JustineP> Lisa: Jennie, update on image effort?
15:01:42 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ images
15:01:42 <JustineP> Jennie: I have a sample to share if there is time. Designer would like feedback.
15:02:04 <JustineP> Lisa: Any issues with your work on the issues log?
15:02:11 <JustineP> Jennie: Will spend time tomorrow on the issues.
15:03:03 <JustineP> Lisa: Justine, any update on icons?
15:03:10 <JustineP> Justine: Need to take a look at the comments.
15:03:22 <JustineP> Lisa: David, any update on person-first language?
15:03:50 <JustineP> David: Feedback indicates that "autistic person" is preferred over person-first language.
15:04:00 <JustineP> Lisa: Would you email feedback to the list?
15:04:02 <JustineP> David: Yes.
15:04:27 <LisaSeemanKest> pendng david send a summary to the list, assuming the people frfer autisic, orgnizations are split
15:05:11 <JustineP> David: Will mention in the email that people prefer identify first language versus person-first language
15:05:33 <LisaSeemanKest> do want to say autistic? in the glossary other term
15:05:37 <LisaSeemanKest> +1
15:05:54 <Jennie> +1 if info about choice is earlier in the document than the glossary
15:05:55 <Rachael> +1 to Autistic and clarification in glossary
15:05:58 <JustineP> +1
15:06:00 <Fazio> +1
15:06:10 <JustineP> Lisa: Any objections?
15:06:27 <JustineP> Rachael: We need to determine where to put clarification language.
15:06:45 <LisaSeemanKest> q?
15:06:52 <Rachael> RESOLUTION: Use Autistic with clarification language
15:08:02 <JustineP> Lisa: User stories -- we include people with cognitive and learning disabilities as clarification. Also have glossary entry for ASD and the phrase "also known as" specifically about autism.
15:08:17 <Rachael> q+
15:08:41 <Jennie> q+
15:08:47 <JustineP> Rachael: I believe we can insert link on term that will bring you to the glossary or show as a tooltip.
15:08:50 <Rachael> ack Rachael
15:08:58 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
15:09:19 <Fazio> agreed
15:09:23 <JustineP> Jennie: I recommend that underneath the introduction, we have a heading about identification of disabilities with the clarification statement. Its a hot topic and people need to be able to find the information quickly.
15:09:37 <JustineP> Lisa: To clarify, you are suggesting that we add a subsection?
15:09:40 <JustineP> Jennie: Yes.
15:10:18 <Rachael> q+
15:10:24 <JustineP> David: There was a lot of passionate discussion on the topic. Friends and family of autistic people consider themselves to be part of the autistic community.
15:11:33 <JustineP> Lisa: I don't want to add to the introduction personally because its difficult. Would this result in another CR?
15:11:48 <JustineP> Rachael: I don't think so because we are responding to issue raised in the beginning.
15:12:20 <JustineP> John K: This is a controversial issue.
15:13:13 <Fazio> works for me
15:13:15 <JustineP> Lisa: What if we add a sentence "For more information about autistic...see glossary"? And add a link to the glossary.
15:13:17 <Jennie> q+
15:13:33 <LisaSeemanKest> ack r
15:14:01 <JustineP> Rachael: I agree with Jennie and David. There is some benefit to making it readily apparent because it is a sensitive issue.
15:14:19 <JustineP> Lisa: Okay.
15:14:32 <JustineP> Rachael: I can take that issue and work with Jennie.
15:14:46 <JustineP> John K: Please include me as well.
15:15:24 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
15:15:53 <JustineP> Jennie: I agree with Rachael and will work with her. We should also mention that we did some outreach, let's be specific to reduce anxiety.
15:16:03 <kirkwood> +1 to “reaching out” language
15:16:09 <kirkwood> present+
15:16:39 <LisaSeemanKest> present+
15:16:55 <JustineP> Lisa: Rachael, will list the action item for you.
15:17:03 <JustineP> Rachael: I will work with John and Jennie...
15:18:04 <JustineP> Rachael: There is real value to pursuing this.
15:18:30 <JustineP> Lisa: David, please write an email to the list so that we have a point of reference.
15:18:35 <JustineP> David: Will do
15:19:30 <JustineP> Lisa: Roy, you merged some issues into Part 1. We will revisit when you return in February.
15:20:02 <JustineP> Lisa: I am working on the final review and going through issues.
15:20:12 <Fazio> q+
15:20:45 <JustineP> Roy: Rachael gave some feedback on editorial issues in Part 1 that I will fix.
15:21:05 <JustineP> Rachael: Roy, you can move forward with merging and we can fix afterwards.
15:21:08 <JustineP> Roy: Okay.
15:21:27 <JustineP> David: Are we going to review icons?
15:21:30 <LisaSeemanKest> ack d
15:21:32 <JustineP> Lisa: Yes, that's the next item.
15:21:34 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:21:34 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LisaSeemanKest
15:21:43 <LisaSeemanKest> ack f
15:21:47 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:21:47 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- icons https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aRoYev1aAIHhIq37Itt96ueBwLh5zXMUeJBYxL0MCkQ/edit# -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:22:25 <JustineP> Lisa: Jennie has some feedback on images...let's discuss both icons and images. We have feedback from David that check marks are significantly different. Is that correct?
15:22:32 <JustineP> David: Yes.
15:22:49 <JustineP> ...I do like the check mark in the square. The circle is a little different though.
15:23:38 <JustineP> David: If you have a square with an 'x' in it, it doesn't mean anything in Japan. Check mark is preferred...that works.
15:24:06 <JustineP> ...filling in a circle doesn't mean anything either. They don't fill in bubbles.
15:24:16 <JustineP> Lisa: I think we are back to square one with this icon.
15:24:32 <JustineP> David: The first icon with a square and check mark works for all purposes.
15:25:15 <JustineP> Lisa: Some people didn't understand the second draft of the icon.
15:25:24 <LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aRoYev1aAIHhIq37Itt96ueBwLh5zXMUeJBYxL0MCkQ/edit#
15:26:03 <LisaSeemanKest> https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/231
15:26:04 <JustineP> David: Maybe we should make the tick mark more prominent, where it comes from outside of the square and goes in?
15:26:37 <JustineP> Lisa: People generally didn't understand the meaning of the icon.
15:27:04 <JustineP> ...someone else agreed. We don't have an icon that is working for internationalization.
15:27:37 <JustineP> ...maybe we should take a few of the icons and then combine.
15:27:45 <JustineP> ...any other ideas?
15:27:45 <LisaSeemanKest> Q?
15:28:08 <JustineP> David: When you hover over something an a hand appears -- that might be more obvious.
15:28:22 <Jennie> (smile) while I like David's suggestion, I believe we have had long discussions about fingers in icons
15:28:23 <JustineP> Lisa: So a button and an index finger about to push it?
15:28:27 <JustineP> David: Yes.
15:28:51 <JustineP> Lisa: Jennie, even when a finger is pressing on a button?
15:28:55 <stevelee> isn;t it default browser behaviour though
15:29:10 <JustineP> Jennie: In interest of time, it would be faster to pick an icon without a finger.
15:29:14 <JustineP> Lisa: Any other ideas?
15:29:54 <Rachael> s/an icon without a finger./that does not include a hand or finger in it
15:30:52 <JustineP> Lisa: Confirming that we are trying to determine what icon 1 should look like. I thought we should have 4 very clear icons.
15:31:08 <JustineP> ...will share an icon that I just found.
15:31:21 <Jennie> Printer and trash icons?
15:31:41 <JustineP> David: When I hover over a name, an icon with a finger about to press a button appears.
15:32:01 <JustineP> Lisa: We have 3 options.
15:32:09 <Jennie> q+
15:32:51 <JustineP> David: Another idea. When I go to bottom a window, your cursor turns into a stretched arrow pointing up and down indicating that you can drag the screen.
15:33:01 <JustineP> John: That's about as clear as it can be.
15:33:25 <Jennie> ack Jennie
15:33:30 <JustineP> Jennie: Consider a printer or trash icon, but I like the version that you are sharing now.
15:33:44 <JustineP> Lisa: Can we vote?
15:34:08 <LisaSeemanKest> simmilar to https://www.clipartkey.com/view/ooiJxJ_fingers-clipart-finger-press-finger-pressing-button-clipart/
15:34:10 <JustineP> ...putting a link to what I am looking at.
15:34:16 <LisaSeemanKest> +1
15:34:19 <Fazio> +1
15:34:28 <JustineP> Please +1 if you like that.
15:34:30 <stevelee> +1
15:34:34 <Jennie> +1
15:34:41 <kirkwood> +1
15:34:46 <LisaSeemanKest> objections?
15:34:46 <JustineP> Lisa: Any objections?
15:35:21 <JustineP> ...let's send that for another review round. I think we are okay with the other icons. Did we finish the memory icon?
15:35:48 <JustineP> ...I think it is more culturally understandable.
15:36:42 <JustineP> John: I'm very much against this one. Kids will not know what a floppy disk is...floppy disks are outdated.
15:37:05 <JustineP> John: Consider a brain with a cog inside although that might be too abstract.
15:37:23 <JustineP> Lisa: Could be executive function, not necessarily memory.
15:37:47 <JustineP> ...so we don't have an idea for that one.
15:38:15 <JustineP> ...sharing some icons on-screen for ideas.
15:38:37 <JustineP> Jennie: Can you change search term to "remember" icon?
15:39:00 <JustineP> Lisa: What about a sticky note?
15:39:16 <JustineP> Steve: Would that work with the word "remember" shown?
15:39:51 <JustineP> Jennie: Do you have an icon of a face and a book?
15:40:46 <JustineP> Lisa: Who likes the icon of a women with the book?
15:40:51 <LisaSeemanKest> wommen icon at https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flaticon.com%2Fpremium-icon%2Fremember_3018851&psig=AOvVaw3s-RdIeTXU2ZykoiLbw380&ust=1611934723570000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCPi0sIz7vu4CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE
15:41:05 <LisaSeemanKest> something similar?
15:41:08 <Rachael> I still prefer the string on finger but between those two, I prefer the post it
15:41:20 <JustineP> John: I like it...
15:41:37 <JustineP> Lisa: The string tied to the finger can mean an injury in certain cultures.
15:41:41 <Fazio> +1 to woman icon
15:41:55 <JustineP> John: It could also be perceived as cueing.
15:42:13 <LisaSeemanKest> whic do u want
15:42:14 <JustineP> Lisa: Woman icon, sticky note, or keep as is?
15:42:22 <LisaSeemanKest> stity note - but can live with any
15:42:29 <Jennie> +1 to woman because text on sticky note won't translate in an icon
15:42:41 <JustineP> I prefer sticky note. To me, the woman icon appears to be about learning but I can live with it.
15:42:57 <kirkwood> +1 to woman with paper and book pointing to head
15:43:19 <Rachael> What about a sticky note with a brain on it?
15:43:25 <JustineP> Jennie: The sticky note doesn't indicate memory to me, although I do use them myself.
15:43:44 <JustineP> John: That could work.
15:43:56 <JustineP> Jennie: I wonder if we need a couple of sticky notes.
15:44:40 <JustineP> John: We should explain to designer why we are asking for the icons.
15:45:16 <JustineP> Action: mock up icons of women with books and sticky notes
15:45:16 <trackbot> Error finding 'mock'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/track/users>.
15:46:27 <LisaSeemanKest>  Action: justine mock up icons of icon 1 and icon 7omen with books and sticky notes
15:47:13 <JustineP> Jennie: I have a mark up from a designer for objective 1. We asked for an image that shows good design and bad design.
15:47:18 <Rachael> me I can
15:47:24 <Rachael> s/me I can/
15:47:29 <Rachael> scribe: Rachael
15:47:31 <LisaSeemanKest> scribe: rachael
15:47:53 <Rachael> Jennie: The desiginer thought to start with this design and get buy in from the group. Once we agree she can customize it by objective. It will have a central theme.
15:48:46 <Rachael> ...she picked a flower shop. She wanted us to know: It is not final. She knows a shopping cart is needed. She has questions around font.  I reminder her this assumes the background is white. If you are using a dark background this will be bright.
15:49:18 <Rachael> ...[describes screen].
15:49:28 <Rachael> Lisa: Is this the good page or  bad page?
15:49:33 <Rachael> Jennie: This is the good page.
15:49:47 <Rachael> ...then she would wreck whatever we asked her to.
15:49:58 <Rachael> Lisa: Is the contrast enough for the good version?
15:50:05 <Rachael> Jennie: She will make sure they all pass.
15:50:16 <Rachael> Lisa: So if I want to go in and buy a normal one.
15:50:38 <Rachael> Jennie: She would like the feedback now so she can be consistent. If you want a font more prominent for example.
15:50:55 <Rachael> John: I have a bit of an issue with the icon and name of a flower shop being smaller and less readable than the specials.
15:51:00 <Rachael> q+
15:52:28 <Rachael> Lisa: That was my reaction as well. The shop name needs to be bigger. The other thing I found initially confusing is that I wanted to buy flowers not for Valentines day. I Suggest changing it to buy, then flowers, etc. It looks like there are 3 options for Valentines day specials but I don't know how to buy.
15:53:05 <Rachael> John: This could be an example of the bad example.
15:53:21 <Rachael> Jennie: I also had a question and thought it should go on the far left.
15:53:54 <Rachael> ...She also wanted to know about the font style. She has roboto as a font style. She is going to work on the H1 to H6. Any preference other than the logo?
15:54:24 <Rachael> ...The fonts to be determined H1 to H6
15:55:04 <Rachael> John: So she hasn't decided what the font style should be. So Valentine days specials would be perhaps H2. She's saying the copy font is roboto so any copy would be in roboto
15:55:47 <Rachael> ...I don't know. There is a lot to say about serif or sans serif fonts for the cognitive disbalities and which read the best. I'm not sure I can give a quick answer
15:56:16 <Rachael> Discussion of font style.
15:56:25 <Rachael> Jennie: Is there a specific font famliy used by W3 selected on purpose?
15:56:33 <Rachael> Lisa: We have guidance on font . Looking it up.
15:57:07 <Rachael> John: Helvetica is a safe font.
15:57:11 <Rachael> Lisa: We don't recommend a font.
15:57:42 <Rachael> Jennie: She things search should be on top but wants to confirm that we want both search and help on top.
15:57:44 <Rachael> Lisa: Yes we do
15:58:00 <Rachael> Jenne: She will then start mocking them up based on these changes and start creating bad examples.
15:58:43 <Rachael> Lisa: BBC new font research might be helpful. Rachael thinks a 2nd pass would be good
15:58:49 <Rachael> Jennie: Can we send it to the list for review?
15:58:54 <Rachael> +1 to moving the 2nd approval to list
15:59:38 <Rachael> Jennie: I will send a test and try to move it through the list. I know we are trying to get this in the list.
16:00:07 <kirkwood> present+
16:01:41 <LisaSeemanKest> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/28-coga-minutes.html LisaSeemanKest