14:03:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #personalization
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14:03:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:04:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Personalization Task Force Teleconference
14:04:02 <trackbot> Date: 25 January 2021
14:17:09 <stevelee> stevelee has joined #personalization
14:46:36 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
14:51:19 <LisaSeemanKest> clear agenda
14:51:31 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ Review remaining Actions, https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki/actions
14:52:01 <LisaSeemanKest> regrets: becky
14:56:13 <LisaSeemanKest> present=
14:56:17 <LisaSeemanKest> present+
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15:00:01 <JF> agenda?
15:00:05 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #personalization
15:00:15 <CharlesL> present+
15:00:15 <JF> Present+
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15:02:42 <LisaSeemanKest> scribe: Lionel
15:03:16 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:03:16 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Review remaining Actions, https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki/actions -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:03:25 <Lionel> present+
15:03:27 <Sharon> present+
15:04:19 <Lionel> Agenda: Patents
15:04:27 <Lionel> Lisa: Patents going well.
15:05:10 <Lionel> ... Bliss has ok'd the W3C copyright. Is this wording sufficient?
15:05:34 <Lionel> Roy: Looks OK, we can go forward. Close this action.
15:05:59 <LisaSeemanKest> https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/issues/145
15:06:09 <Lionel> Lisa: Agenda, Internationalization (144, 145)
15:07:00 <LisaSeemanKest> I was actioned with reopening this issue by I18N WG. We remain concerned that there are duplicate lists and that, by forking from HTML, you are importing a myriad of internationalization woes from that spec. For example, there are several date and time related fields, but no mention of different non-Gregorian calendar systems. There is a country code type but not a reference to country/region code standards such as IS[CUT]
15:07:00 <LisaSeemanKest> Is it possible to separate this material and use it by reference? Or should we comment in detail on these keywords because you intend them to be distinct from HTML?
15:07:53 <Roy> present+
15:08:01 <Lionel> John: Likely referring the data purpose attribute
15:08:10 <Lionel> ... we lifted that almost wholesale from auto-complete
15:08:42 <Lionel> Charles: Let's add a reference to auto-complete
15:08:51 <Lionel> Lisa: That's what they are asking for.
15:09:17 <Lionel> John: Country code ISO-3166 (is this the same as Lang?)
15:09:54 <Lionel> Lisa: We can say-- the auto-complete standards are included, e.g., ....
15:10:07 <Lionel> John: What duplicate list exactly is he referring to?
15:11:08 <Lionel> John: On WCAG 2.1. Right now autocomplete of HTML 5 has some attributes without browser support
15:11:20 <Lionel> .... there was a concern in the WG if we just point to the values of auto-complete
15:11:31 <Lionel> ... (keep in mind that WG controls HTML now, not W3C)
15:12:04 <Lionel> ... (while WG is evergreen -- not snapshot -- they are aiming to reduce the number of attribute values, partially due to the lack of support by browsers)
15:12:27 <Lionel> ... So if we are going to point to a list, I suggest pointing to WCAG section 7 rather than auto-complete
15:12:51 <janina> janina has joined #personalization
15:12:56 <janina> present+
15:13:14 <Lionel> John: did we add any new values?
15:13:16 <Lionel> Charles: Yes
15:13:29 <Lionel> Lisa: date end, date start
15:13:43 <Lionel> Sharon: Sortable (at the end of table)?
15:14:50 <Lionel> Lisa: This is a substantive change. Does it require a CR? Or is it the same content, just from another place?
15:14:50 <LisaSeemanKest> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/rewrite-prototype/content/index.html#values
15:15:12 <CharlesL> These are the non auto-complete for data-purpose
15:15:12 <CharlesL> additional-name-initial
15:15:12 <CharlesL> Additional or middle name initial.
15:15:12 <CharlesL> No
15:15:12 <CharlesL> purpose
15:15:12 <CharlesL> answer
15:15:12 <CharlesL> Answer to a section question.
15:15:14 <CharlesL> No
15:15:14 <CharlesL> purpose
15:15:14 <CharlesL> area
15:15:15 <CharlesL> Administrative area, state, province, or region.
15:15:15 <CharlesL> No
15:15:16 <Lionel> John: I see two concerns (1) date and time with no mention on non-Gregorian
15:15:23 <Lionel> ... (2) country code type without a country code standard
15:16:07 <LisaSeemanKest> q+
15:16:58 <Lionel> Janina: What are doing that is unique with date/time? Aren't those handled by the OS?
15:17:47 <Lionel> Lisa: We allow it in different scenarios, to be represented as an icon
15:18:23 <Lionel> ... I suggest we agree on how to respond.
15:18:29 <Lionel> ... They want us to reference a source
15:18:50 <Lionel> ... But they may not have pointed out every issue with a18n
15:19:07 <Lionel> ... they mention referencing HTML 5 but we could reference WCAG
15:19:31 <Lionel> ... we can go through all individual changes, wherever an a18n issue appears edit that text
15:19:44 <Lionel> ... or: take out things that re-occur in WCAG and just reference
15:20:06 <JF> Q+
15:20:17 <Lionel> ... or add an instruction / editor's note reading: many of these also appear in WCAG, where there is duplication or a difference in definition, please use the WCAG definition
15:20:25 <Lionel> ... this will allow simpler harmonization
15:20:56 <LisaSeemanKest> ack l
15:21:11 <Lionel> ... keep in mind: they may not have mentioned every single issue, as they ask us, "Is it possible to separate this material and use it by reference? Or should we comment in detail on these keywords because you intend them to be distinct from HTML?"
15:21:39 <Lionel> John: Time end, time start, and others like this... we need to harmonize with other standards
15:21:44 <LisaSeemanKest> q+
15:21:46 <Lionel> ... and language.
15:22:18 <Lionel> ... maybe perhaps addressing as well, we have address but there may be other levels
15:22:25 <Lionel> ... birthday- this implies a time/date component
15:22:28 <LisaSeemanKest> We remain concerned that there are duplicate lists and that, by forking from HTML, you are importing a myriad of internationalization woes from that spec.
15:22:33 <CharlesL> fax-country-code as well
15:23:51 <janina> q+
15:24:02 <Lionel> Lisa: Thinking about calendars: we know about this variation, people who use the Israel and Chinese calendars are represented on this call
15:24:42 <Lionel> ... it seems they want us to reference autocomplete of HTML 5.
15:24:55 <JF> ack me
15:24:57 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
15:25:01 <LisaSeemanKest> ack l
15:25:06 <JF> Q+
15:25:27 <Lionel> ... to reference WCAG could be harder
15:26:57 <Lionel> Janina: We need to pay attention, they are pointing out that these issues may be outside our scope
15:27:15 <Lionel> ... I suggest we reach out and say, we agree, what would you propse for us to reference
15:27:58 <Lionel> ... keep in mind whoever is implementing the standard needs to know what exactly to implement
15:28:32 <Lionel> John: We tried to deal with this problem in WCAG 2.1.
15:28:57 <Lionel> ... What we lack and need is a repository (kind of like TR) for references like this
15:29:30 <Lionel> ... this is a big ask, would require an architectural change inside the W3C
15:29:50 <Lionel> ... we have a normative reference to the values (via autocomplete) but we do not have a master list
15:30:10 <LisaSeemanKest> q+
15:30:14 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
15:30:20 <Lionel> ... WCAG list is incomplete. HTML5 is incomplete and might also be modified, as attribute values that we reference might be eliminated
15:30:36 <CharlesL> +1 to invite them
15:30:38 <Lionel> ... as we (and they) do not want us to fork, we need a solution
15:30:51 <janina> q+
15:30:53 <Lionel> ... let's invite them to a discussion
15:31:10 <Lionel> ... this is an issue that we have known about for some time, and now it's time to action it
15:31:22 <Lionel> Lisa: Look at how HTML is doing it in the WG
15:31:47 <Lionel> ... Personalization use cases are very experimental.
15:32:38 <Lionel> ... answers can depend on context. With birthdays, for example, we select which calendar to go by, based on who is asking and in what context
15:32:57 <Lionel> ... we are trying to automate the process of giving instructions, where this kind of automatization can be very important
15:33:11 <Lionel> ... and autocomplete may not be providing enough to fulfill these requirements
15:33:15 <JF> https://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-datetime
15:33:16 <LisaSeemanKest> q?
15:33:22 <JF> Q+
15:33:24 <LisaSeemanKest> ack l
15:33:34 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
15:33:50 <Lionel> Janina: The word 'experimental' is a key word, keep in mind PR and TR are not meant for experimentation
15:34:07 <Lionel> ... as to process: seems we are agreeing, let's meet with them.
15:34:20 <Lionel> ... we can set guidelines, set the direction we want to go in
15:34:55 <JF> https://www.iso.org/iso-8601-date-and-time-format.html
15:34:59 <JF> Q+
15:35:03 <Lionel> ... "there are some issues here, which way did you want us to reference them in?" and we can provide 2 or 3options
15:35:08 <JF> ack jan
15:35:11 <Lionel> ... explain the problem we may have
15:35:18 <Lionel> ... ask them if they'd like to join
15:35:37 <Lionel> ... Volunteer to draft this (action item)? Or should we draft it together?
15:35:38 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
15:36:33 <Lionel> John: Put two links above, W3C and iso-8601
15:36:52 <Lionel> ... we can reference the standards for format value
15:36:56 <JF> https://microformats.org/wiki/datetime-design-pattern
15:37:01 <LisaSeemanKest> q+
15:37:20 <Lionel> ... for date start & date end we could also reference the 'microformats' link above (but it being a wiki is problematic)
15:37:50 <Lionel> Lisa: Let's look more closely. A field accepts a birthday
15:38:08 <CharlesL> q+
15:38:12 <Lionel> ... we do not have a tag to support entering one's non-gregorian birthday (e.g., Hebrew) in this field
15:38:24 <Lionel> ... so a reference does not necessarily help us to conform
15:38:51 <Lionel> John: The W3C date/time link is from 1997
15:39:05 <Lionel> Lisa: I looked at it.
15:39:47 <Lionel> Lisa: When speaking with i18n we will share the challenges we face, kind of like what we went through with WCAG
15:40:19 <Lionel> ... regarding date/time format, this might be a red herring. What is the actual problem here? We do not specify the data format here!
15:40:36 <Lionel> ... we are not specifying the date/time format here. we are specifying its role
15:40:44 <Lionel> John: Disagree.
15:41:13 <Lionel> ... Calendars must share a reference (they share a reference to Western time AFAIK)
15:41:27 <Lionel> Janina: emacs specifies alternate calendars
15:41:54 <Lionel> Lisa: data-purpose has a value that is set, 'birthday'
15:41:59 <Lionel> ... this doesn't even have to be a field
15:42:21 <Lionel> ... we just say what it is so we can support adding personalization (symbols, instructions as to what it means).
15:42:37 <Lionel> ... did we write anywhere that the 'birthday' needs a format in this field?
15:43:09 <Lionel> John: currently. we have bday, bday-month, bday-year. do all calendars share these concepts of day, month, year?
15:43:13 <Lionel> Lisa: Yes
15:43:40 <Lionel> John: propose adding a value, calendar-type
15:43:43 <JF> https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/about-chinese.html
15:43:58 <LisaSeemanKest> q?
15:44:03 <Lionel> ... the link above references 12 different calendars
15:44:31 <LisaSeemanKest> ack l
15:44:47 <Lionel> ... Gregorian,  Julian,  Hindu,  Buddhist,  Islamic,  Jewish,  Persian,  Chinese,  Coptic,  Ethiopian,  Revised Julian,  Mayan,
15:45:17 <Lionel> Charles: We could put a form field, but there must be an already agreed-upon method to specify these values
15:45:42 <JF> Q+
15:45:43 <Lionel> ... we dont care what calendar, we are saying that the PURPOSE is for a birthday
15:45:47 <JF> ack ch
15:45:53 <Lionel> ... our specification does not say that birthdays are only Western
15:46:48 <Lionel> Lisa: So you propose: we are not stating the format, we are only stating the purpose
15:47:02 <Lionel> ... for calendar, there are attributes for that and we recommend you use those attributes
15:47:30 <Lionel> Janina: we may need to specify what kind of calendar it is, e.g., birthday, time/date you are showing up at a hotel
15:47:39 <JF> Normative reference (WHAT WG): https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/form-control-infrastructure.html#attr-fe-autocomplete-bday
15:47:56 <Lionel> Lisa: We propose that we specify we do not imply format. We recommend that you do provide format and reference specifications that you might use
15:48:08 <LisaSeemanKest> this does not suppy format and we recomend that you do by refrencing ....
15:48:08 <Lionel> John: This is a problem that is bigger than us
15:48:56 <Lionel> John: This problem manifests in other places. The language of HTML is english-based, and the computer representation of date/time is Western
15:49:05 <Lionel> ... this ctee cannot solve this
15:49:10 <LisaSeemanKest> q+
15:49:16 <Lionel> ... revealing the format of the date is correct
15:49:18 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
15:49:23 <Lionel> ... ISO goes year, month, day, hour, second, ms
15:49:32 <Lionel> ... that is a reliable international standard
15:49:37 <Lionel> ... and this is not our business
15:50:01 <Lionel> Lisa: So: we should clarify, if you say this is a birthday field, this is a day/time format implied
15:50:04 <Lionel> ... but we are not saying that
15:50:20 <Lionel> ... we say, if this is a date./time field, we recommend this format
15:50:22 <JF> "The format SHOULD use the ISO 8601 format"
15:50:34 <JF> Q+
15:50:52 <Lionel> ... BTW, I disagree that the language of the web is English. It is experienced by people each in their own local language. E.g., Chinese speakers only experience the web in Chinese
15:51:21 <Lionel> Lisa: Proposing.
15:51:28 <LisaSeemanKest> note this does not suppy format and we recomend that you do by refrencing ....
15:51:50 <JF> the language of the web is localized. The language of the HTML code is western/english
15:51:58 <Lionel> ... #1: Write a note under purpose. The note states, 'this does not supply the format. for format we recommend that you reference another specification... ' and we provide pointers
15:52:08 <Lionel> ... or do we imply a format?
15:52:52 <Lionel> Lisa: Straw Poll. [defines the poll]
15:53:11 <Lionel> John: Country code? ISO spec. Time stamp formats? ISO spec.
15:53:34 <Lionel> ... Language of the web is localized, but the code itself is derived from english (e.g., <body>)
15:54:08 <Lionel> ... RFC 2119 SHOULD use the timestamp format in 8601 and country code in ____
15:54:26 <Lionel> Lisa: But this is the disagreement.
15:54:45 <Lionel> ... Differentiate more clearly between PURPOSE and FORMAT
15:55:09 <Lionel> ... we do not specify format
15:55:49 <Lionel> Lisa: Straw Polll proposed...
15:56:01 <Lionel> objections. straw poll, not yet
15:56:54 <Lionel> Janina: We can have a default, a presumption. The presumed format is e.g., Gregorian, if you want Hebrew then you have to specify
15:57:09 <Lionel> Lisa: If you have lang=Hebrew or lang=Chinese, would you assume Gregorian?
15:57:22 <Lionel> ... it depends highly on the site
15:57:42 <Lionel> Janina: Can we discover what is the common practice? What are the dates in Baidu?
15:58:09 <Lionel> Roy: The Chinese date is shown.
15:58:16 <Roy> 2021年1月25日
15:58:47 <Lionel> John: That is a Western date.
15:59:24 <Lionel> Roy: Correction. China uses a Western calendar in general, and only use the traditional calendar when involved in a festival or traditional rite
15:59:40 <Lionel> John: This is ISO! Year, Month, Day
16:00:11 <Lionel> Lisa: We cannot really speak for every culture.
16:00:26 <Lionel> Janina: That's why we need to use the existing standards
16:00:53 <Lionel> Lisa: So we say, we do not say what format.
16:01:12 <Lionel> John: Canada and USA cannot even agree on date format (m/d/y vs d/m/y)
16:01:29 <Lionel> ... but the three concepts endure. year, month, day (date)
16:02:14 <Lionel> Janina: The programmatic determination is that there are defaults
16:02:20 <Lionel> ... we see that even China is conforming
16:02:28 <Lionel> ... what is specified meets a certain spec
16:02:54 <Lionel> ... let's pt a default. if you are going to specify in a different naming convention, then state it
16:03:25 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #personalization
16:03:31 <Lionel> Lisa: proposing poll again.
16:03:34 <Lionel> Janina: a bit too hard
16:03:38 <Lionel> To be continued!
16:03:46 <JF> I'm with Charles - I like to consult i18n WG
16:04:34 <Lionel> John: I'm saying, we need more info. We accept your feedback as valid, please tell us how to go about it
16:05:00 <Lionel> Lisa: I will write this up
16:06:13 <LisaSeemanKest> rrsagent, publish minutes
16:06:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/25-personalization-minutes.html LisaSeemanKest
16:06:37 <LisaSeemanKest> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Teleconference_cheat_sheet
16:07:35 <Lionel> '---  trackbot, end meeting
16:07:46 <Lionel> zakim, end meeting
16:07:46 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been LisaSeemanKest, CharlesL, JF, Lionel, Sharon, Roy, janina
16:07:48 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:07:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/25-personalization-minutes.html Zakim
16:07:51 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Lionel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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17:48:35 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:48:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/25-personalization-minutes.html CharlesL
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