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23:51:08 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), wendyreid
23:51:20 <wendyreid> meeting: EPUB 3 WG Telco January 21 2021
23:51:27 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
23:51:35 <wendyreid> date: 01-21-21
23:52:57 <wendyreid> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-epub-wg/2021Jan/0038.html
23:53:46 <wendyreid> Date: 2021-01-15
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00:00:16 <toshiakikoike> present+
00:00:37 <Teenya> present+
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00:00:52 <wendyreid> present+
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00:03:02 <Teenya> I am in zoom..
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00:03:36 <MattChan> scribe+
00:03:52 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
00:04:04 <MattChan> wendyreid: welcome everyone. 2 items on the agenda today
00:04:05 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/wiki/Big-Issues-for-EPUB-3.3
00:04:14 <MattChan> TOPIC: Scope
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00:04:53 <MattChan> wendyreid: this is a list of various categories of issues we have in epub 3.3
00:04:56 <Garth> present+ Garth
00:05:20 <MattChan> ... some of these we've already discussed to some extent
00:05:42 <MattChan> ... we're coming to a point where we have to determine whether each of these issues meets the test of being within our scope
00:06:18 <MattChan> ... e.g. HTML serialization, should this be in 3.3? Or is it something that should be left to a later time due to the risk it poses to backwards compatibility?
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00:07:36 <MattChan> Garth: is there a particular issue that we want to decide on right now?
00:07:56 <MattChan> wendyreid: no particularly, we want to understand what is high on everyone's priority list
00:08:41 <MattChan> ... which ones are important to the community that you represent, or which ones do we need to get more information about before we can decide?
00:09:05 <MattChan> ... we also want to be up front about issues that we have to move out
00:09:15 <MattChan> ... especially as we run into issues with testing, or backwards compatibility
00:09:33 <BenSchroeter> q+
00:09:39 <wendyreid> ack BenSchroeter
00:10:01 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: can we run through these at a high level? i.e. a summary of each?
00:10:22 <MattChan> wendyreid: html 5 serialization, essentially bringing html5 into the spec officially, making it live in parallel to xhtml
00:10:44 <MattChan> ... core media types, which new types do we add? how far do we take it?
00:11:10 <MattChan> ... fate of epub:type. We can't fully remove it, but what could we do about potentially deprecating it, or steering people away from it
00:11:22 <MattChan> ... fate of multiple renditions, we've pretty much decided
00:11:36 <MattChan> ... fate of satellite specs
00:11:43 <MattChan> ... inline formatting in nav doc
00:11:53 <MattChan> ... scripting, we've already discussed to some extent
00:12:14 <MattChan> ... origins and remote content, are somewhat related
00:12:35 <MattChan> ... complex layout, I believe this has to do with mixed modalities, no pixel values in complex layout content
00:12:48 <MattChan> ... fate of linked metadata records, something dave has been trying to test
00:13:09 <MattChan> ... fate of manifest fallback, not shown to be highly supported in testing, but which still exists
00:13:27 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: nothing jumps out as conceptually out of scope, maybe out of scope due to lack of bandwidth
00:14:21 <MattChan> wendyreid: don't want to write anything out, but, e.g. linked metadata records and manifest fallback are not well supported, should these be lower priority?
00:14:41 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: do those satellite specs fall under our auspecies?
00:15:20 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, they are referenced in our charter, but a lot of them aren't note status (except for multiple rendition)
00:16:06 <MattChan> ... a lot of them are currently IDPF documents
00:16:30 <Garth> q+
00:16:37 <wendyreid> ack Garth
00:16:37 <MattChan> ... we just want to get everything thinking in terms of this list of issues
00:17:13 <MattChan> Garth: i was curious if there was anyone on this call that hasn't had a chance to express opinions on these issues
00:17:24 <MattChan> ... especially HTML serialization
00:17:43 <MattChan> s/especially HTML/especially on HTML
00:17:56 <MattChan> wendyreid: we're still gathering information on that topic
00:18:14 <wendyreid> topic, authoring and html5
00:18:22 <MattChan> ... particularly, we don't know whether Amazon and Apple have plans to support HTML5, or a desire to
00:18:28 <Teenya> I am literally a beginner (in fact a complete beginner) on Epub and web development and honestly while I learn alot on these calls I do not know enough to express and opinion. I do however appreciate the opportunity to be a member and learn as we go.
00:18:30 <MattChan> TOPIC: Authoring and HTML5
00:19:05 <MattChan> wendyreid: Authoring tools includes InDesign, Sigil, or even a completely custom publishing workflow that someone has developed for their indie publisher
00:19:24 <MattChan> ... we need to consider what challenge HTML5 would present to people making the tools in the tool chain
00:20:28 <MattChan> marisa: if you have authoring tools creating xhtml5 currently, does anything get lost if we just convert that to html5 after the fact?
00:20:35 <MattChan> wendyreid: i would guess no...
00:20:39 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: epub:type?
00:20:50 <MattChan> wendyreid: might be affected, but we want to discourage them from doing so anyway
00:22:00 <MattChan> wendyreid: someone commented on the original thread from Standard Ebooks. They convert public domain books into ebook files
00:22:14 <MattChan> ... they don't have custom tools, but they pull from standard libraries to create a tool chain
00:22:36 <MattChan> ... this person was reluctant to move towards html5 serialization because of what would be lost vs xhtml
00:22:48 <toshiakikoike> q
00:22:55 <MattChan> ... also, xhtml already contains a lot of the good things from html5, so do we even need the full thing?
00:22:57 <wendyreid> ack toshiakikoike
00:23:24 <MattChan> toshiakikoike: *comments in japanese*
00:24:40 <zhengxu> q+
00:25:20 <MattChan> shiestyle: toshiakikoike says he is making generation tools for epub content, for which he currently uses an xml parser
00:25:34 <MattChan> ... if we changed to html5, this would require big changes in his process
00:25:52 <wendyreid> ack zhengxu
00:25:54 <MattChan> ... other publishers or vendors may be similarly impacted
00:26:24 <MattChan> zhengxu: here isn't the proposal to ADD support for html5? xhtml would still be accepted anyway
00:26:30 <Garth> q+
00:26:56 <wendyreid> ack Garth
00:27:08 <MattChan> ... so this might limit the degree of the impact of html5 serialization
00:27:46 <MattChan> Garth: Google uses an XML workflow, and I would expect others do as well for historical reasons
00:27:54 <MattChan> ... but that in itself is not a reason to say no
00:28:38 <MattChan> ... and a change in this direction might be helpful for other segments of tool that are based on html5, and also for scripting
00:29:02 <MattChan> s/of tool/of tooling
00:29:24 <MattChan> ... it would be nice if we could get input from the business group as to who wants this, and how badly?
00:29:55 <MattChan> wendyreid: we have heard from independent publishers, as opposed to the people who make the tools that are being used in publishing
00:30:13 <MattChan> ... that was where the support for html5 serialization mostly came from
00:30:58 <Garth> q?
00:31:04 <MattChan> ... but we do need to have a better understanding of how existing tools would be affected, how much would need to be changed. Is it just adding an html5 parser? Or it would be more work?
00:31:35 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: are we saying that we want future epubs to be strictly html5 with no extensible markup?
00:31:56 <MattChan> wendyreid: no, we want to take advantage of xhtml5 flexibility and modernity
00:32:14 <MattChan> ... we're not expecting html5 files to in every epub? No.
00:32:23 <MattChan> ... but if we allow it, we'll probably see some of both for a very long time
00:32:57 <MattChan> s/advantage of xhtml5/advantage of html5
00:33:33 <MattChan> Garth: there is a formality to xhtml that is useful, as opposed to the tag soup that is html serialization
00:34:05 <MattChan> BenSchroeter: do we need more of in impact investigation? Input from RSes, bookstores, etc.?
00:34:30 <MattChan> ... we don't want to make assumptions and miss anything critical
00:34:55 <MattChan> wendyreid: we've already asked RSes, pretty much, but we need input from tool makers
00:35:01 <MattChan> ... e.g. the makers of pandoc
00:35:18 <MattChan> ... also the parts of the publishing industry who haven't provided input (e.g. apple, amazon)
00:35:33 <MattChan> ... if you are in contact with people in these groups, please ask them for feedback
00:36:11 <MattChan> ... so, basically, more research before we decide
00:37:06 <MattChan> Garth: one of us could probably write an email to Tess, just to ask for Apple's input
00:37:16 <MattChan> wendyreid: yes, we're going to do that
00:37:33 <MattChan> Topic: AOB?
00:38:03 <MattChan> wendyreid: we published FPWD just over a week ago
00:38:09 <MattChan> ... it was well received
00:38:16 <MattChan> ... but we already have a number of changes since then
00:38:40 <MattChan> ... we're not ready to publish anything else yet, but as a protocol, we're going to resolve it in a meeting first
00:38:50 <MattChan> ... as opposed to any sort of automatic publishing
00:39:02 <MattChan> ... so, yes, we want your input as to when we publish
00:39:16 <MattChan> ... the next major publication is probably going to be aligned with the accessibility piece
00:39:34 <MattChan> ... we'll see you all next week everyone!
00:39:58 <wendyreid> zakim, end meeting
00:39:58 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been toshiakikoike, Teenya, zhengxu, MattChan, wendyreid, BenSchroeter, marisa, MasakazuKitahara, Garth, shiestyle, duga
00:40:01 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
00:40:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/21-epub-minutes.html Zakim
00:40:04 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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00:40:19 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
00:40:41 <wendyreid> rrsagent, make logs public
00:41:19 <wendyreid> rrsagent, goodbye
00:41:19 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'goodbye', wendyreid.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
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