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19:51:03 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group
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19:53:16 <Matt_King> CHAIR: Sina Bahram
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20:13:51 <Matt_King> TOPIC: Role announcement consistency
20:14:15 <Matt_King> sina: example is tablist
20:14:35 <Matt_King> JAWS and NVDA announce the role differently.
20:14:44 <Matt_King> Do we take a position on that?
20:14:56 <Matt_King> Should we enforce consistency?
20:15:20 <Matt_King> Or, is the role somehow indicated, generically?
20:15:53 <Matt_King> mk: That's reason we use word conveyed
20:16:16 <Matt_King> Sina: consider combobox
20:16:51 <Matt_King> Mac is different because it announces combobx as popup buttion
20:17:16 <Matt_King> Westin: true for html select but if you use role combobox, Mac will say combobox
20:17:38 <Matt_King> Sina: need to be specific about browser, Chrome, Sina thinks it does not say combobox
20:20:13 <Matt_King> mk: Describe my position about Mac, which select only combobox can be announced in way cionsistent with native, which is popup button variant.
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20:27:41 <Matt_King> mk: We can convey the essence of the role, or the nature, but the exact word is not necessary.
20:27:46 <Matt_King> Sina: +1 to that
20:28:47 <Matt_King> mk: There could be roles where we don't want the screen reader to just spit out the aria role name
20:28:49 <Matt_King> q?
20:29:12 <Matt_King> jg: How is important that reading mode and forms mode are consistent?
20:29:21 <Matt_King> Sina: Think they can be different
20:29:40 <Matt_King> Sina: They might flatten in in forms mode
20:30:22 <Matt_King> In a tablist, they might not want to say the entire role name
20:31:08 <Matt_King> jg: Jon, when testing, I observed some differences where group was used instead of the actual continer name
20:33:28 <Matt_King> Sina: Should we take a position  on whether the words used in reading and interaction mode should always be the same?
20:34:26 <Matt_King> In other words, a test would fail if it said tabs in ineraction mode but tablist in reading mode
20:34:36 <Matt_King> mk: I support that
20:35:00 <Matt_King> jg: what if it said group in vc mode and tabs in interaction mode
20:35:22 <Matt_King> WSina: I  think that would be a fail
20:38:07 <Matt_King> This topic is discussed in issue 366:
20:38:10 <Matt_King> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/366
20:39:13 <Matt_King> mk: on example of table, it must distinguish static table from interactive table
20:39:34 <Matt_King> oops, meant that to be about grid, distinguish grid from static table
20:40:48 <Matt_King> Sina: How do we convey this concept to testers?
20:42:27 <Matt_King> mk: I think we need a table of screen reader role translations
20:44:21 <Matt_King> mk: This could be a table of exceptions, where screen readers do not precisely announce what is in ARIA
20:44:37 <Matt_King> Sina: must be versioned
20:44:47 <Matt_King> No idea what this means for internationalization
20:45:07 <Matt_King> jg: What happens when people are comparing results
20:45:20 <Matt_King> Sina: that is part of the process
20:46:16 <Matt_King> jg: This is adding complexity
20:46:22 <Matt_King> Sina: is it avoidable?
20:46:41 <Matt_King> jg: Do we need this nuance at this level?
20:47:11 <Matt_King> Do we rely o  the community to flush this out.
20:47:32 <Matt_King> What if users, lots of users agree that table is just fine instead of grid
20:47:57 <Matt_King> Sina: Just because users think a bug is OK, that doesn't make it ok
20:48:43 <Matt_King> Sina: There is a certain clas of things that it is essential that we convey the exact nature of things
20:50:05 <Matt_King> jg: Should assertion be "conveys the interactive nature of grid"?
20:50:35 <Matt_King> mk: That means we would have to change all the assertions to explain the meaning of roles
20:50:57 <Matt_King> Sina: What if we added notes to tricky assertions
20:57:55 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
20:57:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/21-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King
20:58:21 <Matt_King> Sina: major takeaway, from test writing perspective, we don't change assertion language.
20:58:45 <Matt_King> But, we do need to figure out how  to create this exception dictionary
20:59:20 <Matt_King> We would need to figure out how to roll it into the app, maybe another csv file
20:59:33 <Matt_King> jg: It could be another note in the list
20:59:38 <Matt_King> in the test runner
20:59:42 <Matt_King> Sina: yes
21:00:02 <Matt_King> A test writer would update this spreadsheet when coming across an exception.
21:00:16 <Matt_King> Should be siome consensus rules around that.
21:01:27 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
21:01:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/21-aria-at-minutes.html Matt_King