15:10:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
15:10:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/01/15-social-irc
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16:51:07 <cjslep[m]> Meeting is in 10 minutes?
16:51:16 <rhiaro> cjslep[m]: aye!
16:55:05 <Loqi_> [@ManuelViens] ↩️ "an open decentralized standard for social media"
16:55:05 <Loqi_> This is the definition of ActivityPub protocol, no?
16:55:05 <Loqi_> https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/ (https://twitter.com/_/status/1350124275496349698)
16:58:30 <rhiaro> Zakim, start meeting
16:58:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:31 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), rhiaro
16:58:38 <rhiaro> Meeting: Social Web Incubator CG
16:58:50 <rhiaro> Agenda: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/2021-01-15-socialcg-meeting-building-a-policy-special-interest-group/1261/7?u=rhiaro
16:58:50 <rhiaro> chair: rhiaro
16:58:50 <rhiaro> scribe: cjslep[m]
16:59:08 <humanetech> humanetech has joined #social
16:59:49 <humanetech> sorry, can't be in bbb.. traveling now
17:02:00 <cjslep[m]> present+
17:02:01 <rhiaro> present+
17:02:13 <humanetech> present+
17:03:44 <sl007> present+
17:04:33 <paul> paul has joined #social
17:04:45 <eest9> eest9 has joined #social
17:05:21 <sl007> audio meeting is here https://bbb.w3c.social/b/rhi-vp1-fv6-vn7
17:05:24 <Mathew> Mathew has joined #social
17:05:33 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: welcome, begins with introductions
17:06:12 <cjslep[m]> ... I am amy guy, co-chair of the group. Used to work on the standards like ActivityPub
17:06:36 <rhiaro> cjslep[m]: I'm cj on the fediverse, I work on the go-fed software and I go by he/him and have almost no expertise
17:07:27 <cjslep[m]> cristina: first heard of ActivityPub in the first activitypub conference organized by socialcg
17:07:42 <hellekin> hellekin has joined #social
17:07:51 <cjslep[m]> ... interested in decentralization and privacy. background is in legal. hoping to provide expertise with legal background
17:08:22 <cjslep[m]> eest9: go by they/them. studying political science. Very interested in sociological aspect
17:08:54 <cjslep[m]> JarOfGreen: background is around open event and open data. interested in data discovery.
17:09:42 <humanetech> I am Arnold, initiator & facilitator of Humane Tech Community (grassroots, independent of Center for Humane Technology, Tristan Harris et al) and foss + fedi advocate.
17:10:21 <hellekin> present+
17:10:30 <cjslep[m]> lauren: he/him. interested in decentralizing and democratizing the internet.
17:10:35 <cjslep[m]> s/lauren/laurin/
17:12:15 <cjslep[m]> mathew: online since 1988. has experience working with the EU (commission?), familiar with the DSA. Working on a project, wish to move it to the Fediverse (learned about it a year ago).
17:12:37 <Mathew> that side project I mentioned is still very alpha: myhub.ai
17:13:06 <cjslep[m]> cypherhippie: in a discussion group around the Digital Public Sphere. Original background Wireless Mesh networks. Interested in nomadic identities and mobility. Interested in meta-discussion around role of Fediverse as it grows as well.
17:14:14 <cjslep[m]> sl007: coordinated with morgan webber activitypub events in 2019 and 2020. Also the rc3. Working on redaktor. For example, provides video pages on the fediverse
17:14:43 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: original purpose is to discuss interoperability of digital services and the EU
17:15:14 <cjslep[m]> ... but with a new wave of users, there is proposal to discuss the potential problem of new massive influx of people onto the Fediverse.
17:15:37 <cjslep[m]> ... would like to hear whether we should discuss the new item regarding influx of people, or the original agenda item.
17:16:01 <cjslep[m]> sl007: i like it (new topic)
17:17:11 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: I may use incorrect terminology, unfamiliar with EU policy language.
17:17:11 <Mathew> I'm not an EU policy wonk, but my clients are ;)
17:17:43 <cjslep[m]> ... EU has been introducing new legislation and policy. They are generally unaware of the Fediverse when they propose legislation and think about policy.
17:18:08 <cjslep[m]> ... learned that lobbying and activism groups working with Brussels can be delicate topic as it can be "shouting in a void"
17:18:25 <hellekin> +q
17:18:27 <sl007> q+
17:18:32 <Mathew> q+
17:18:44 <cjslep[m]> ... there is an option to have policy group work with existing activism groups, to leverage existing connections.
17:19:08 <eest9> +q
17:19:21 <cjslep[m]> hellekin: sorry, missed introductions. Hosting the SocialHub forum. Working with NGI0 consortium to help provide grants. Working on (project?) within NGI Pointer.
17:19:25 <hellekin> https://love.public.cat/t/about-the-interoperability-category/95
17:19:58 <hellekin> https://ps.zoethical.org/pub/interoperability-and-power-relations
17:20:11 <cjslep[m]> ... will be back in brussels on Monday. Organizing OFFDEM like last year. Topic on interoperability and power (?) relations.
17:20:50 <cjslep[m]> ... crossed past with edri (?) at rc3, amelia is interested in joining the group. IGF is interested in the topic, would like to invite them as well
17:20:57 <cjslep[m]> s/past/paths/
17:21:33 <rhiaro> ack hellekin
17:21:35 <rhiaro> ack sl007
17:21:39 <rhiaro> ack sl
17:21:43 <cjslep[m]> sl007: DSA (digital services act) draft is being sent to the legislators. EU proposed to have interoperability for auxiliary services, but not for ex, facebook stream.
17:22:06 <cjslep[m]> ... not just interoperability, but also data transfer as well.
17:22:30 <cjslep[m]> ... invited edri (?) already. And sent direct message to Dr. Breyer.
17:22:51 <cristinadelisle_> cristinadelisle_ has joined #social
17:23:23 <cjslep[m]> ... would like to have people good with text and visual explaining to help in a 5 minute long video to explain issues. Reached out on the SocialHub as well. Interested in volunteers
17:23:35 <cristinadelisle__> cristinadelisle__ has joined #social
17:23:52 <rhiaro> ack Mathew
17:23:56 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: thank you sebastian. Working on open letters and materials wider community can voice supper is great
17:23:58 <hellekin> sl007: is this the latest DSA doc? https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/proposal-regulation-single-market-digital-services-digital-services-act_en.pdf
17:24:43 <cjslep[m]> mathew: pick up where sebastian left off. I'm one of leaders in group helping EC build platform on (dupal?) to build online community. Important to be Fediverse-compatible.
17:25:29 <cjslep[m]> ... that's one thing I can do. Another thing is to promote videos we make to the EC digital group. Think it is possible, as on the one hand it is regulating this area, but also enabling the growth this area.
17:26:14 <cjslep[m]> ... which can help motivate them to establish their own servers. I've been in this era since blogosphere around 2007.
17:26:20 <cjslep[m]> ... can help organize events that help answer questions. However, we have to really be prepared and really be ready to answer questions at policy and operational level
17:26:36 <cjslep[m]> ... statement made before is absolutely correct: don't set up own lobby, work with existing ones
17:26:51 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: thank you, really like the idea of q&a with folks on the Fediverse
17:26:54 <rhiaro> ack eest9
17:27:04 <rhiaro> ack eest
17:27:07 <cjslep[m]> eest9: I have news from edri (?)
17:27:35 <cjslep[m]> ... they nearly finished their opinion finding process on the DSA. Today they are beginning finding their opinion on the DMA (digital markets act).
17:27:42 <cjslep[m]> ... the DMA is the part on interoperability
17:27:44 <rhiaro> q?
17:27:48 <Grishka> Grishka has joined #social
17:27:59 <Mathew> pirate party?
17:28:25 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: thank you, heard lots of positive and concrete things to move forward.
17:28:34 <cjslep[m]> ... to concretely document, I've drafted proposal stating the purpose of the group
17:28:53 <rhiaro> PROPOSED: the remit of the Policy Group is primarily to liase with existing digital/tech political lobbying groups to bring awareness of fediverse/interop standards which can then be relayed at the right times and in the right places to politicians and policy makers. As part of this, the Policy Group may draft documentation, proposals, or open letters which can be co-signed by the SocialCG.
17:29:00 <cjslep[m]> ... would like to take a vote on it
17:29:28 <Mathew> "and organise events"
17:29:29 <hellekin> q+
17:29:32 <sl007> q+
17:30:09 <cjslep[m]> hellekin: seen very few criticism of interoperability concept, with regard to (prior?) relations.
17:30:25 <cjslep[m]> ... one criticism from German journal, other criticism is posted on interop group
17:30:45 <cjslep[m]> sl007: netzpolitik journal?
17:31:12 <Mathew> if you want to get ppolicymakers attention, get into politico europe. I know some journos there
17:31:18 <cjslep[m]> hellekin: equivalent to (sorry I missed this) french journal, very small entity, has similar arguments to work group, I'll look for link
17:31:50 <cjslep[m]> ... would be good to discuss, ex recall history of IRC and AoL and invading of people who don't understand culture
17:32:21 <hellekin> https://love.public.cat/t/what-is-at-stake-with-interoperability/96
17:32:22 <cjslep[m]> ... would be very good to discuss relations, not just promote Fediverse. Affects interoperability.
17:32:41 <cjslep[m]> ... if interoperability favors corporate culture, may kill Fediverse culture
17:33:04 <Mathew> re: losing culture, this is what happened when social media platforms usurped the blogosphere
17:33:26 <cjslep[m]> ... strongly recommend reading the text. all these kinds of interoperability (data, protocol, etc) have intertwined effects
17:34:03 <rhiaro> q?
17:34:12 <Grishka> (I'm not listening in, only reading the chat, but I'd just day that interoperability following corporate culture would very much defeat the spirit of that bill)
17:34:13 <rhiaro> ack hellekin
17:34:15 <rhiaro> ack sl
17:34:17 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: I've read your article, and found it valuable. There is other work to do to make Fediverse more resilient, not just blindly growing Fediverse.
17:35:25 <cjslep[m]> sl007: Also agree with hellekin. will link paper in the end. describes distribution of governance across the fediverse, avoid filter bubbles, maybe try to have moderators be able to govern or coordinate bans, and lots of unsolved areas of moderation
17:35:37 <Mathew> +q
17:35:55 <cjslep[m]> ... when talked with sandro (?), maybe w3c recommendations around social interoperability (?)
17:36:11 <humanetech> I proposed starting a FediverseFutures initiatives to look at fedi holistically: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/fediverse-futures-visions-dreams-feedback-wanted/1238
17:36:27 <cjslep[m]> ... some of you may be aware of counter-groups that exists
17:37:06 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: I hear you. Want to be careful so that technical things are not excluded
17:37:30 <cjslep[m]> mathew: if you want to breach EC bubble, it really helps to brief journalists and prep them and work with the press.
17:37:51 <cjslep[m]> ... this includes putting on events and being a bit more formal. Brussels works by giving events
17:37:54 <rhiaro> ack Mathew
17:38:06 <cjslep[m]> ... was wondering what the links are between this event and the pirate party are.
17:38:08 <sl007> q+
17:38:35 <cjslep[m]> ... sorry, so new to this. But pirate party have MEPs. What is the status of collaborating with them? They are pro-Fediverse, are they already here?
17:38:47 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: Thanks, I didn't realize they were pro-Fediverse.
17:38:50 <rhiaro> ack sl
17:39:03 <humanetech> Patrick Breyer showed interest to join this SocialCG today..
17:39:34 <cjslep[m]> sl007: there is no relation to the pirate party. The only relation that exists here. Breyer who is a judge, and a pirate party member, showed interest in using Fediverse tools to do interoperability
17:39:58 <cjslep[m]> ... others like the liberals, left, and greens, have contact. Only ones without good contact are conservatives
17:40:37 <cjslep[m]> laurin: unsure if now is the right time, but i find attention economy quite important to this as well
17:41:23 <cjslep[m]> ... there can be very contrasting ideas to drive conflicting ideas that drive attention economy
17:41:30 <rhiaro> q?
17:41:30 <Mathew> q+
17:41:31 <cjslep[m]> ... which the algorithms help do
17:41:44 <rhiaro> ack Mathew
17:42:43 <cjslep[m]> mathew: wanted to stress, in the near future, I will have budget to have 1) what EC should (?) towards the Fediverse. That budget is me spending time of my day working with people on the Fediverse. I want to talk to people and learn.
17:43:26 <cjslep[m]> ... I will be writing a report that will be sent to the right part of the EC folks that have influence on policy. Not the EC directly.
17:43:31 <hellekin> q+
17:43:49 <Mathew> mathew.lowry@gmail.com
17:44:08 <cjslep[m]> ... I am new to this group. I dont know to go about it. But if people step up, I am willing to work with the right people to learn more.
17:44:15 <rhiaro> PROPOSED: the remit of the Policy Group is primarily to liase with existing digital/tech political lobbying groups to bring awareness of relevant standards and W3C recommendations which can then be relayed at the right times and in the right places to politicians and policy makers. As part of this, the Policy Group may organise events, briefings, draft documentation, proposals, or open letters which can be co-signed by the SocialCG.
17:44:33 <Mathew> +1
17:44:33 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: thank you, please share your contact details, and we will get back to you and put you in contact with the right people to discuss.
17:44:35 <sl007> +1
17:44:47 <humanetech> +1
17:44:55 <paul> +1
17:44:56 <cjslep[m]> ... also SocialHub is the right place to have async conversations.
17:45:04 <rhiaro> s/liase/liaise
17:45:06 <cjslep[m]> ... I will now also post my amended proposal to vote upon
17:45:07 <hellekin> +1
17:45:22 <cristinadelisle__> q+
17:45:30 <cjslep[m]> 0
17:45:41 <rhiaro> ack hellekin
17:46:09 <cjslep[m]> hellekin: question to mathew: origin of the statute/budget? propose to meet in brussels since i will be there monday
17:46:55 <cjslep[m]> mathew: contract is a consulting gig. Helping that part of EC (Digi connect?) with their website. Normally not done, but helping a friend with it. End of 2020, set out some ideas for 2021.
17:47:36 <cjslep[m]> ... one of those ideas was to say that Fediverse should be the guys with input. And was surprised when they said "yes" to that idea.
17:48:15 <cjslep[m]> cristinadelise: before voting this proposal, curious aspect of political lobbying groups. Just targeting them?
17:48:30 <Mathew> we should not be limited to political lobbying groups
17:49:05 <cjslep[m]> ... or are we targeting other groups as well? is there a goal group that we wish to communicate with?
17:49:19 <Mathew> include: European Commission, MEPs, Brussels-based journalists
17:49:22 <Loqi_> yea
17:49:26 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: sorry, this proposal reflects a little bit of my ignorance, also open to other groups
17:49:42 <rhiaro> ack cristinadelisle__
17:49:44 <cjslep[m]> ... please add to IRC other groups as well
17:49:49 <h_ll_k_n> h_ll_k_n has joined #social
17:50:27 <cjslep[m]> cristinadelise: yes, it could be important to expand beyond lobbying groups.
17:50:59 <cjslep[m]> mathew: yes, I recommend not focusing on lobbying groups. EC, Parelemintarians, press, journalists.
17:51:08 <cjslep[m]> ... recommend leaving the phrase generic, and reach out to whoever we need to.
17:51:17 <rhiaro> PROPOSED: the Policy group can use its best judgement to decide which relevant groups to reach out to in its efforts
17:51:23 <cjslep[m]> cristinadelise: yes, and this makes me more comfortable with the proposal
17:51:27 <Mathew> +1
17:51:36 <humanetech> Press, journalists also touches on dealing with "the wave".. the brand image of fedi.
17:51:53 <sl007> +1
17:51:58 <cristinadelisle__> +1
17:52:01 <humanetech> +1
17:52:03 <rhiaro> q?
17:52:09 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: great, let me update the proposal since some have already voted on the old proposal
17:52:18 <paul> +1
17:52:26 <cjslep[m]> cristinadelise: yes the update is OK
17:52:30 <rhiaro> PROPOSED: the Policy Group establishes a regular schedule to update the wider SocialCG with anything new.
17:52:31 <eest9> +1
17:52:37 <Grishka> +1
17:52:39 <h_ll_k_n> +1
17:52:42 <Mathew> +1
17:52:47 <humanetech> +1
17:52:47 <cristinadelisle__> +1
17:53:00 <sl007> +1
17:53:04 <eest9> +1
17:53:07 <paul> +1
17:53:08 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: any objections to the proposal before we move on?
17:53:08 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: I ahve another proposal about logistics of the group
17:53:09 <cjslep[m]> s/ahve/have
17:53:11 <h_ll_k_n> <-- changed nick must have disconnected
17:53:33 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: I have one more proposal for logistics
17:54:03 <rhiaro> PROPOSED: the Policy Group will coordinate activities publicly on the SocialHub forum.
17:54:12 <Mathew> +1
17:54:17 <humanetech> +1
17:54:18 <paul> +1
17:54:23 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: please let me know if there are objections
17:54:28 <Grishka> +1
17:54:31 <h_ll_k_n> +q
17:54:32 <sl007> 0
17:54:38 <cjslep[m]> 0
17:54:40 <rhiaro> ack h_ll_k_n
17:55:16 <cjslep[m]> h_ll_k_n: maybe the interoperability issue is larger than just ActivityPub, so is interop group moving back to SocialHub?
17:55:50 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: yeah, I think SocialHub is not necessarily limited to ActivityPub, so important to have Interop group have visibility and accessibility there
17:56:00 <cjslep[m]> ... unsure how tags and Discourse is specifically set up, but feel it helps with accessibility
17:56:14 <h_ll_k_n> +º
17:56:17 <h_ll_k_n> +1
17:56:26 <rhiaro> q?
17:56:27 <humanetech> +1
17:56:30 <cjslep[m]> h_ll_k_n: thanks, I think it very important to have non-developer access
17:56:39 <hellekin> cjslep[m]: I'm back ;)
17:56:43 <humanetech> Need to see if Discourse topics are archived at archive.org etc.
17:56:58 <hellekin> humanetech: how do we ensure that?
17:57:10 <humanetech> Not sure. need to figure out.
17:57:15 <rhiaro> Topic: "the wave"
17:57:20 <sl007> q+
17:57:22 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: next topic is "the wave" as some people are talking about, which is where the possibility of lots of users who do not mesh well with current Fediverse culture, may join
17:57:24 <humanetech> Was reason that solid members do not use forum
17:57:27 <cjslep[m]> ... propose making it next weeks topic
17:57:30 <rhiaro> ack sl
17:57:39 <hellekin> humanetech: you probably want to queue up on that
17:57:47 <cjslep[m]> sl007: would like to summarize quickly
17:57:52 <hellekin> I mean on the wave topic
17:58:00 <cjslep[m]> ... as you know, president trump is banned from all major tech platforms
17:58:14 <cjslep[m]> ... this includes snapchat
17:58:15 <rhiaro> RESOLVED: the remit of the Policy Group is primarily to liase with existing digital/tech political lobbying groups to bring awareness of relevant standards and W3C recommendations which can then be relayed at the right times and in the right places to politicians and policy makers. As part of this, the Policy Group may organise events, briefings, draft documentation, proposals, or open letters which can be co-signed by the SocialCG.
17:58:15 <rhiaro> RESOLVED: the Policy group can use its best judgement to decide which relevant groups to reach out to in its efforts
17:58:15 <rhiaro> RESOLVED: the Policy Group establishes a regular schedule to update the wider SocialCG with anything new.
17:58:16 <rhiaro> RESOLVED: the Policy Group will coordinate activities publicly on the SocialHub forum.
17:58:28 <cjslep[m]> ... as you know he still has nuclear codes and he may need another valve.
17:58:53 <cjslep[m]> ... we became aware a co-founder of wikipedia has gotten big funding and asking how to make network censorship-resistent
17:59:16 <cjslep[m]> ... their fans made me aware that Dr. Sanger is aware/supporting of conspiracies of a faked 2020 presidential election
17:59:44 <cjslep[m]> ... many black communities already complain about moderation problems. One famous one already shut down over harassment
18:00:09 <cjslep[m]> ... I just checked on pro-fascist user on .social who has been reported but no action taken against.
18:00:16 <cjslep[m]> ... so we have moderation problem
18:00:56 <cjslep[m]> ... a journalist who is dear friend of mine, worked on Green film (?), left fediverse? (sorry I missed this)
18:01:12 <rhiaro> q?
18:01:16 <sl007> https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/intervention-after-2021-storming-of-the-united-states-capitol/1298
18:01:17 <cjslep[m]> ... coordinating moderation is urgent, and want to share my brainstorming (treat it as such)
18:01:49 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: thanks sl007 for sharing, this is great background for meeting next week
18:02:19 <Mathew> as there been any media coverage on this?
18:02:52 <cjslep[m]> mathew: thanks, this was a great and well-managed meeting
18:03:00 <cjslep[m]> ... where do I find the calendar?
18:03:16 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: great question, working on it on the nextcloud instance, will share it on the irc chat
18:03:37 <cjslep[m]> sl007: yes and I will also share it on the SocialCG category on the SocialHub
18:03:54 <cjslep[m]> hellekin: rhiaro you mean the 23rd, correct, not tomorrow?
18:04:00 <cjslep[m]> rhiaro: yes, correct
18:04:29 <cjslep[m]> sl007: mathew, you asked about media coverage on this event? I can only speak for German media
18:05:20 <rhiaro> present+ eest9
18:05:20 <rhiaro> present+ laurin
18:05:20 <rhiaro> present+ jarofgreen
18:05:21 <rhiaro> present+ mathew
18:05:21 <rhiaro> present+ cristina
18:05:23 <rhiaro> present+ hellekin
18:05:25 <rhiaro> present+ cypherhippie
18:05:27 <rhiaro> present+ grishka
18:05:34 <rhiaro> Zakim, end meeting
18:05:34 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been cjslep[m], rhiaro, humanetech, sl, hellekin, º, eest9, laurin, jarofgreen, mathew, cristina, cypherhippie, grishka
18:05:37 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:05:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/15-social-minutes.html Zakim
18:05:39 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, rhiaro; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:05:43 <Zakim> Zakim has left #social
18:05:48 <rhiaro> RRSAgent, make minutes public
18:05:48 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', rhiaro.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:05:58 <rhiaro> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:06:19 <rhiaro> RRSAgent, make minutes public
18:06:19 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', rhiaro.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:18:00 <humanetech> humanetech has left #social
18:35:56 <sl007> cjslep (dupal?) -> https://www.drupal.org
18:46:10 <hellekin> hellekin has joined #social
20:27:34 <hellekin> hellekin has joined #social