15:06:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-arch
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15:06:33 <kaz> Meeting: WoT Architecture
15:06:51 <ryuichi> ryuichi has joined #wot-arch
15:06:59 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Lagally Michael_McCool
15:07:02 <cris_> cris_ has joined #wot-arch
15:07:30 <McCool> McCool has joined #wot-arch
15:07:32 <kaz> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Architecture_WebConf#Jan._13th.2C_2021
15:07:46 <kaz> present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura, Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:07:53 <kaz> topic: Agenda
15:08:03 <kaz> ml: (goes through the agenda)
15:08:09 <kaz> topic: Prev minutes
15:08:42 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/12/17-wot-arch-minutes.html Dec-17
15:08:52 <kaz> ml: (goes through the minutes)
15:09:21 <kaz> ... was a clean-up call
15:10:35 <kaz> ... any concerns?
15:10:40 <kaz> (none)
15:10:44 <kaz> approved
15:10:58 <kaz> topic: Terminology
15:11:12 <kaz> ml: we started discussion during the main call yesterday, Jan 14
15:11:59 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/453 Issue 453
15:12:26 <kaz> ml: would be great if somebody could generate a MR for this
15:13:14 <kaz> mm: we have to think about if partial TD should include mathematical definition
15:13:37 <dape> q+
15:13:40 <kaz> ... whether regular TD is also a partial TD or not
15:14:22 <kaz> cris: wondering about the relationship with "TD fragment"
15:14:40 <kaz> ml: let's start with "Partial TD" first and then talk about "TD fragment" later
15:14:55 <kaz> q?
15:15:00 <kaz> ack d
15:15:11 <kaz> dp: wondering about "Thing Model" as well
15:15:19 <kaz> ... what is what
15:15:25 <kaz> ... and what is subset of what
15:16:09 <kaz> ml: (shows the terminology section of the Architecture ED)
15:16:14 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-architecture/#terminology 3. Terminology
15:16:26 <kaz> ml: there is a definition for "Thing Model"
15:16:36 <mlagally> https://w3c.github.io/wot-architecture/#terminology
15:16:44 <kaz> [[
15:16:46 <kaz> Thing Model
15:16:46 <kaz> A Thing Model is a description for a class of Things that have the same capabilities. It describes the Properties, Actions, and Events and common metadata that are shared for an entire group of Things. Compared to a Thing Description, a Thing Model does not contain enough information to identify or interact with a Thing instance.
15:16:47 <kaz> ]]
15:16:56 <kaz> mm: how to relax the restriction?
15:17:00 <dape> ack dape
15:17:27 <kaz> ml: here we made some definition for "Thing Model"
15:17:49 <kaz> ... Compared to a Thing Description, a Thing Model does not contain enough information to identify or interact with a Thing instance.
15:18:19 <kaz> ... Thing Model is some kind of data model we define by the Thing Description spec
15:18:46 <kaz> mm: partial TD is just relaxing the requirements for TD
15:19:04 <kaz> ... compared to a full TD
15:19:30 <kaz> (some more discussion)
15:19:55 <kaz> q|
15:19:58 <kaz> q+
15:20:06 <kaz> s/q|//
15:20:36 <cris_> q+
15:20:39 <kaz> mm: we need to look into use cases
15:20:58 <kaz> ml: partial TD is used for the Scripting API
15:21:11 <McCool> q+
15:21:37 <kaz> dp: I did mention that, but Cristiano may have a bit different view
15:23:08 <kaz> kaz: I also think we should continue the discussion based on some concrete use cases with some concrete TD (or partial TD or TD fragment or TD model)
15:23:13 <kaz> ack k
15:23:28 <kaz> ml: that's correct
15:23:39 <kaz> ack c
15:23:45 <kaz> q+ dape
15:24:04 <kaz> ml: and would like to see the difference with each other
15:24:54 <dape> q+ to illustrate scripting example
15:25:00 <kaz> cris: TD fragment is a piece of TD
15:25:19 <kaz> ml: (adds Cristiano's point to the issue comment)
15:25:32 <kaz> ... TD fragment is...
15:27:31 <cris_> q+
15:27:53 <kaz> mm: to me, TD JSON fragment is a piece of insight
15:28:05 <kaz> ml: (adds comments)
15:28:19 <kaz> s/TD JSON/TD/
15:28:37 <kaz> ... TD fragment is a substructure of the data model of a TD
15:29:00 <kaz> ... in JSON rpresentation it could be just an inner structure omitting outer elements, curly braces, etc.
15:29:16 <kaz> mm: it's still a valid as JSON
15:29:45 <kaz> ml: valid JSON, however could be just an inner structure omitting outer elements
15:29:52 <McCool> q?
15:29:53 <dape> ack dape
15:29:53 <Zakim> dape, you wanted to illustrate scripting example
15:29:54 <kaz> q?
15:29:55 <McCool> ack m
15:30:08 <kaz> dp: wanted to show some example
15:30:27 <kaz> -> https://github.com/eclipse/thingweb.node-wot/blob/62106f4978d88a7cf70f3333ba801f00cdf4d929/examples/scripts/counter.js#L26-L127 example
15:31:23 <kaz> ml: it's not a TD fragment but partial TD. right?
15:31:26 <kaz> dp: yes
15:32:24 <kaz> [[
15:32:37 <kaz>         count: {
15:32:38 <kaz>             type: "integer",
15:32:38 <kaz>             description: "current counter value",
15:32:38 <kaz>             descriptions: {
15:32:38 <kaz>                 "en": "current counter value",
15:32:38 <kaz>                 "de": "Derzeitiger Zähler Stand",
15:32:40 <kaz>                 "it": "valore attuale del contatore"
15:32:42 <kaz>             },
15:32:44 <kaz>             "iot:Custom": "example annotation",
15:32:46 <kaz>             observable: true,
15:32:48 <kaz>             readOnly: true
15:32:52 <kaz>         },
15:32:54 <kaz> ]]
15:33:03 <kaz> i/count/{/
15:33:07 <kaz> i/]]/}/
15:33:29 <kaz> ml: it's a valid object structure can be validated
15:33:36 <kaz> mm: yes
15:33:43 <kaz> ... and valid JSON syntactically
15:34:22 <kaz> ml: we need some additional requirements for this definition
15:34:55 <kaz> s/requirements/constraints/
15:34:57 <mlagally> q?
15:35:11 <kaz> mm: we have big discussion for Discovery about this
15:36:31 <kaz> ... TD fragment is useful for Discovery results
15:37:12 <kaz> ... do we have any additional constraints?
15:37:44 <kaz> ml: anyway it's validatable
15:37:55 <kaz> mm: possibly missing parts there
15:38:12 <kaz> ml: (adds some clarification)
15:38:53 <kaz> ... (and also shows the TD Editor's Draft)
15:40:18 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#terminology ED of TD spec
15:41:23 <kaz> s/#terminology/#sec-vocabulary-definition/
15:41:36 <kaz> ml: constraints with the TD Information Model?
15:41:56 <kaz> cris: we could say constraints with the JSON Schema
15:42:08 <kaz> present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
15:43:15 <kaz> ml: TD fragment is useful for Discovery results
15:43:30 <kaz> mm: results returned by a JSON Path query
15:43:45 <kaz> ml: (adds that point to the Issue comment)
15:44:17 <kaz> mm: maybe we could make that part of the note a use case
15:44:54 <kaz> ml: fine with that use caes?
15:44:54 <kaz> kaz: yes
15:45:08 <kaz> ... and nicer to have an actual TD fragment example as well
15:45:21 <kaz> mm: we could borrow that from Farshid's description
15:46:20 <kaz> ml: (shows the Discovery ED)
15:46:30 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-discovery/#jsonpath-semantic 6.2.2.4.1 Syntactic search: JSONPath
15:46:42 <kaz> mm: ah, we need to expand that section to include the example
15:47:10 <kaz> ml: (also shows the terminology section)
15:47:20 <McCool> q+
15:47:27 <kaz> -> https://w3c.github.io/wot-discovery/#terminology 3. Terminology from the WoT Discovery ED
15:47:30 <kaz> [[
15:47:34 <kaz> Partial TD
15:47:34 <kaz> A data model partially conformant to the Thing Description schema by including only a subset of the attributes.
15:47:35 <kaz> ]]
15:47:51 <kaz> sk: don't like the term of "attributes" there
15:48:04 <kaz> ... would be better to say "information model", etc.
15:48:11 <kaz> q?
15:48:15 <kaz> ack m
15:48:17 <kaz> ack c
15:48:56 <kaz> mm: partially conformant is a bit ambiguous
15:49:02 <cris_> q+
15:50:00 <kaz> ... conformant to the entire information model
15:50:14 <kaz> ... or subset of the information model
15:50:26 <kaz> ml: ok
15:50:39 <kaz> ... let's remove "partially" from the definition here
15:51:54 <kaz> ... (adds some more clarification to the definition of "Partial TD")
15:52:10 <mlagally> q?
15:52:20 <kaz> ... subset of a TD inforation model which doesn't require all mandatory keywords of the TD.
15:52:33 <kaz> ... It is including only a subset of the terms of the TD information model
15:53:00 <kaz> ... A data model conformant to the TD schema can be validated by alidating th subet of elements that are present.
15:54:14 <kaz> s/inforation/information/
15:54:28 <kaz> s/keywords/eleents/
15:55:17 <kaz> ... (adds a note)
15:55:58 <kaz> ... when seralized a partial TD includes all outer elements of a TD but may omit internal elements.
15:57:44 <benfrancis> benfrancis has joined #wot-arch
15:58:22 <kaz> q+
15:58:43 <kaz> present+ Michael_Koster
15:58:45 <kaz> ack c
15:59:37 <kaz> ml: a partial TD is used for the Scripting API
15:59:46 <kaz> ... TODOs
16:00:02 <kaz> ... need examples from the Scripting API and the Discovery specs
16:00:12 <McCool> (have to drop, sorry...)
16:01:30 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/speech-synthesis11/#S2.2.1 SSML 1.1
16:02:14 <kaz> s|-> https://www.w3.org/TR/speech-synthesis11/#S2.2.1 SSML 1.1||
16:02:29 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/issues/453#issuecomment-760290680 updated comments including the draft definitions
16:02:46 <kaz> kaz: I'm OK with the above draft definitions
16:03:22 <kaz> ... but maybe we could think about "what can be omitted from the entire TD information model for "Partial TD" and "TD Fragment"
16:04:28 <benfrancis> Ah, did the architecture call start at 3pm GMT? I had it in my calendar as 4pm GMT, apologies.
16:05:40 <kaz> ... for example, the SSML 1.1 spec had a definition for "Fragments" by mentioning namespace definitions (other than xml:lang and xml: base) can be omitted"
16:06:05 <kaz> s/omitted"/omitted/
16:06:28 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/TR/speech-synthesis11/#S2.2.1 SSML 1.1 - 2.2.1 Conforming Speech Synthesis Markup Language Fragments
16:06:50 <benfrancis> I'm afraid I'm also unable to access WebEx because all the lists.w3.org links on the wiki time out for me.
16:08:10 <benfrancis> I see
16:09:10 <kaz> kaz: anyway, we need to continue the discussion about the definitions based on actual use cases and examples
16:09:13 <kaz> [adjourned]
16:09:22 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
16:09:29 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:09:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/14-wot-arch-minutes.html kaz
16:09:52 <benfrancis> kaz: Thank you, but it would be better to have a solution where Invited Experts can be kept up to date with the latest information, because WebEx credentials change periodically and I have this problem every time I try to join a call.
16:11:45 <benfrancis> Are calendar invites sent to the private members list too?
16:12:10 <kaz> rrsagent, stop