IRC log of wot-arch on 2021-01-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:06:20 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wot-arch
15:06:20 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:06:33 [kaz]
Meeting: WoT Architecture
15:06:51 [ryuichi]
ryuichi has joined #wot-arch
15:06:59 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Daniel_Peintner, Michael_Lagally Michael_McCool
15:07:02 [cris_]
cris_ has joined #wot-arch
15:07:30 [McCool]
McCool has joined #wot-arch
15:07:32 [kaz]
15:07:46 [kaz]
present+ Ryuichi_Matsukura, Tomoaki_Mizushima
15:07:53 [kaz]
topic: Agenda
15:08:03 [kaz]
ml: (goes through the agenda)
15:08:09 [kaz]
topic: Prev minutes
15:08:42 [kaz]
-> Dec-17
15:08:52 [kaz]
ml: (goes through the minutes)
15:09:21 [kaz]
... was a clean-up call
15:10:35 [kaz]
... any concerns?
15:10:40 [kaz]
15:10:44 [kaz]
15:10:58 [kaz]
topic: Terminology
15:11:12 [kaz]
ml: we started discussion during the main call yesterday, Jan 14
15:11:59 [kaz]
-> Issue 453
15:12:26 [kaz]
ml: would be great if somebody could generate a MR for this
15:13:14 [kaz]
mm: we have to think about if partial TD should include mathematical definition
15:13:37 [dape]
15:13:40 [kaz]
... whether regular TD is also a partial TD or not
15:14:22 [kaz]
cris: wondering about the relationship with "TD fragment"
15:14:40 [kaz]
ml: let's start with "Partial TD" first and then talk about "TD fragment" later
15:14:55 [kaz]
15:15:00 [kaz]
ack d
15:15:11 [kaz]
dp: wondering about "Thing Model" as well
15:15:19 [kaz]
... what is what
15:15:25 [kaz]
... and what is subset of what
15:16:09 [kaz]
ml: (shows the terminology section of the Architecture ED)
15:16:14 [kaz]
-> 3. Terminology
15:16:26 [kaz]
ml: there is a definition for "Thing Model"
15:16:36 [mlagally]
15:16:44 [kaz]
15:16:46 [kaz]
Thing Model
15:16:46 [kaz]
A Thing Model is a description for a class of Things that have the same capabilities. It describes the Properties, Actions, and Events and common metadata that are shared for an entire group of Things. Compared to a Thing Description, a Thing Model does not contain enough information to identify or interact with a Thing instance.
15:16:47 [kaz]
15:16:56 [kaz]
mm: how to relax the restriction?
15:17:00 [dape]
ack dape
15:17:27 [kaz]
ml: here we made some definition for "Thing Model"
15:17:49 [kaz]
... Compared to a Thing Description, a Thing Model does not contain enough information to identify or interact with a Thing instance.
15:18:19 [kaz]
... Thing Model is some kind of data model we define by the Thing Description spec
15:18:46 [kaz]
mm: partial TD is just relaxing the requirements for TD
15:19:04 [kaz]
... compared to a full TD
15:19:30 [kaz]
(some more discussion)
15:19:55 [kaz]
15:19:58 [kaz]
15:20:06 [kaz]
15:20:36 [cris_]
15:20:39 [kaz]
mm: we need to look into use cases
15:20:58 [kaz]
ml: partial TD is used for the Scripting API
15:21:11 [McCool]
15:21:37 [kaz]
dp: I did mention that, but Cristiano may have a bit different view
15:23:08 [kaz]
kaz: I also think we should continue the discussion based on some concrete use cases with some concrete TD (or partial TD or TD fragment or TD model)
15:23:13 [kaz]
ack k
15:23:28 [kaz]
ml: that's correct
15:23:39 [kaz]
ack c
15:23:45 [kaz]
q+ dape
15:24:04 [kaz]
ml: and would like to see the difference with each other
15:24:54 [dape]
q+ to illustrate scripting example
15:25:00 [kaz]
cris: TD fragment is a piece of TD
15:25:19 [kaz]
ml: (adds Cristiano's point to the issue comment)
15:25:32 [kaz]
... TD fragment is...
15:27:31 [cris_]
15:27:53 [kaz]
mm: to me, TD JSON fragment is a piece of insight
15:28:05 [kaz]
ml: (adds comments)
15:28:19 [kaz]
15:28:37 [kaz]
... TD fragment is a substructure of the data model of a TD
15:29:00 [kaz]
... in JSON rpresentation it could be just an inner structure omitting outer elements, curly braces, etc.
15:29:16 [kaz]
mm: it's still a valid as JSON
15:29:45 [kaz]
ml: valid JSON, however could be just an inner structure omitting outer elements
15:29:52 [McCool]
15:29:53 [dape]
ack dape
15:29:53 [Zakim]
dape, you wanted to illustrate scripting example
15:29:54 [kaz]
15:29:55 [McCool]
ack m
15:30:08 [kaz]
dp: wanted to show some example
15:30:27 [kaz]
-> example
15:31:23 [kaz]
ml: it's not a TD fragment but partial TD. right?
15:31:26 [kaz]
dp: yes
15:32:24 [kaz]
15:32:37 [kaz]
count: {
15:32:38 [kaz]
type: "integer",
15:32:38 [kaz]
description: "current counter value",
15:32:38 [kaz]
descriptions: {
15:32:38 [kaz]
"en": "current counter value",
15:32:38 [kaz]
"de": "Derzeitiger Zähler Stand",
15:32:40 [kaz]
"it": "valore attuale del contatore"
15:32:42 [kaz]
15:32:44 [kaz]
"iot:Custom": "example annotation",
15:32:46 [kaz]
observable: true,
15:32:48 [kaz]
readOnly: true
15:32:52 [kaz]
15:32:54 [kaz]
15:33:03 [kaz]
15:33:07 [kaz]
15:33:29 [kaz]
ml: it's a valid object structure can be validated
15:33:36 [kaz]
mm: yes
15:33:43 [kaz]
... and valid JSON syntactically
15:34:22 [kaz]
ml: we need some additional requirements for this definition
15:34:55 [kaz]
15:34:57 [mlagally]
15:35:11 [kaz]
mm: we have big discussion for Discovery about this
15:36:31 [kaz]
... TD fragment is useful for Discovery results
15:37:12 [kaz]
... do we have any additional constraints?
15:37:44 [kaz]
ml: anyway it's validatable
15:37:55 [kaz]
mm: possibly missing parts there
15:38:12 [kaz]
ml: (adds some clarification)
15:38:53 [kaz]
... (and also shows the TD Editor's Draft)
15:40:18 [kaz]
-> ED of TD spec
15:41:23 [kaz]
15:41:36 [kaz]
ml: constraints with the TD Information Model?
15:41:56 [kaz]
cris: we could say constraints with the JSON Schema
15:42:08 [kaz]
present+ Sebastian_Kaebisch
15:43:15 [kaz]
ml: TD fragment is useful for Discovery results
15:43:30 [kaz]
mm: results returned by a JSON Path query
15:43:45 [kaz]
ml: (adds that point to the Issue comment)
15:44:17 [kaz]
mm: maybe we could make that part of the note a use case
15:44:54 [kaz]
ml: fine with that use caes?
15:44:54 [kaz]
kaz: yes
15:45:08 [kaz]
... and nicer to have an actual TD fragment example as well
15:45:21 [kaz]
mm: we could borrow that from Farshid's description
15:46:20 [kaz]
ml: (shows the Discovery ED)
15:46:30 [kaz]
-> Syntactic search: JSONPath
15:46:42 [kaz]
mm: ah, we need to expand that section to include the example
15:47:10 [kaz]
ml: (also shows the terminology section)
15:47:20 [McCool]
15:47:27 [kaz]
-> 3. Terminology from the WoT Discovery ED
15:47:30 [kaz]
15:47:34 [kaz]
Partial TD
15:47:34 [kaz]
A data model partially conformant to the Thing Description schema by including only a subset of the attributes.
15:47:35 [kaz]
15:47:51 [kaz]
sk: don't like the term of "attributes" there
15:48:04 [kaz]
... would be better to say "information model", etc.
15:48:11 [kaz]
15:48:15 [kaz]
ack m
15:48:17 [kaz]
ack c
15:48:56 [kaz]
mm: partially conformant is a bit ambiguous
15:49:02 [cris_]
15:50:00 [kaz]
... conformant to the entire information model
15:50:14 [kaz]
... or subset of the information model
15:50:26 [kaz]
ml: ok
15:50:39 [kaz]
... let's remove "partially" from the definition here
15:51:54 [kaz]
... (adds some more clarification to the definition of "Partial TD")
15:52:10 [mlagally]
15:52:20 [kaz]
... subset of a TD inforation model which doesn't require all mandatory keywords of the TD.
15:52:33 [kaz]
... It is including only a subset of the terms of the TD information model
15:53:00 [kaz]
... A data model conformant to the TD schema can be validated by alidating th subet of elements that are present.
15:54:14 [kaz]
15:54:28 [kaz]
15:55:17 [kaz]
... (adds a note)
15:55:58 [kaz]
... when seralized a partial TD includes all outer elements of a TD but may omit internal elements.
15:57:44 [benfrancis]
benfrancis has joined #wot-arch
15:58:22 [kaz]
15:58:43 [kaz]
present+ Michael_Koster
15:58:45 [kaz]
ack c
15:59:37 [kaz]
ml: a partial TD is used for the Scripting API
15:59:46 [kaz]
... TODOs
16:00:02 [kaz]
... need examples from the Scripting API and the Discovery specs
16:00:12 [McCool]
(have to drop, sorry...)
16:01:30 [kaz]
-> SSML 1.1
16:02:14 [kaz]
s|-> SSML 1.1||
16:02:29 [kaz]
-> updated comments including the draft definitions
16:02:46 [kaz]
kaz: I'm OK with the above draft definitions
16:03:22 [kaz]
... but maybe we could think about "what can be omitted from the entire TD information model for "Partial TD" and "TD Fragment"
16:04:28 [benfrancis]
Ah, did the architecture call start at 3pm GMT? I had it in my calendar as 4pm GMT, apologies.
16:05:40 [kaz]
... for example, the SSML 1.1 spec had a definition for "Fragments" by mentioning namespace definitions (other than xml:lang and xml: base) can be omitted"
16:06:05 [kaz]
16:06:28 [kaz]
-> SSML 1.1 - 2.2.1 Conforming Speech Synthesis Markup Language Fragments
16:06:50 [benfrancis]
I'm afraid I'm also unable to access WebEx because all the links on the wiki time out for me.
16:08:10 [benfrancis]
I see
16:09:10 [kaz]
kaz: anyway, we need to continue the discussion about the definitions based on actual use cases and examples
16:09:13 [kaz]
16:09:22 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
16:09:29 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:09:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kaz
16:09:52 [benfrancis]
kaz: Thank you, but it would be better to have a solution where Invited Experts can be kept up to date with the latest information, because WebEx credentials change periodically and I have this problem every time I try to join a call.
16:11:45 [benfrancis]
Are calendar invites sent to the private members list too?
16:12:10 [kaz]
rrsagent, stop