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14:49:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/01/14-i18n-irc
14:50:23 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:50:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:50:29 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:50:29 <trackbot> Date: 14 January 2021
14:50:47 <addison> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jan/0002.html
14:50:48 <agendabot> addison, sorry, I did not recognize any agenda in https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jan/0002.html
14:50:55 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:51:00 <addison> agenda+ Agenda
14:51:04 <addison> agenda+ Action Items
14:51:08 <addison> agenda+ Info Share
14:51:12 <addison> agenda+ Radar
14:51:28 <addison> agenda+ COGA icon review
14:51:42 <addison> agenda+ Charmod case folding etc.
14:51:58 <addison> agenda+ MiniApp I18N design discussion
14:52:01 <addison> agenda+ AOB?
14:52:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/14-i18n-minutes.html addison
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14:59:55 <addison> present+ Addison, Richard, Fuqiao
15:00:08 <addison> present+ Martin Alvarez
15:00:21 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
15:00:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/14-i18n-minutes.html addison
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15:01:15 <martin> present+ martin_alvarez
15:01:19 <Bert> present+
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15:02:01 <fsasaki> present+
15:02:03 <JcK> present+ JcK
15:02:25 <atsushi> present+
15:02:57 <addison> present+ Yongjing Zhang (Miniapp)
15:03:18 <addison> present+ Wangzitao (Miniapp)
15:04:59 <addison> agenda?
15:05:04 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:05:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda -- taken up [from addison]
15:05:34 <David> David has joined #I18n
15:05:51 <Bert> scribe+
15:05:57 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 12
15:05:57 <Zakim> agendum 12 -- MiniApp I18N design discussion -- taken up [from addison]
15:06:29 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3As%3Aminiapp
15:06:30 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/miniapp/issues/149
15:06:46 <Bert> addison: Welcome to the miniapp people. Fuqiao, can you intro the topic?
15:06:50 <David> zakim, present+
15:07:28 <Bert> xfq: We discussed issues last week, mostly about manifest: bidi, localization
15:07:55 <Bert> ... addison filed an issue about how to make apps in multiple languages.
15:08:45 <Bert> ... Can miniapp editors explain the i18n architecture of miniapps?
15:09:23 <Bert> addison: Esp. the design goals. The bigger picture may help us understand better and give more targeted comments.
15:09:50 <Bert> ... How does a miniapp author make an app localized in multiple languages?
15:10:22 <Bert> yongjing_zhang: Thanks for the comments and issues.
15:10:33 <Bert> ... We haven't thought deeply aboiut i18n issues.
15:10:49 <Bert> ... I didn't understand the the full question at first.
15:11:16 <Bert> ... The design is not complete. We did think a bit. We first focused on localization in-app.
15:11:32 <Bert> ... There would be a number of JSON files in the package, for the pages inside the app.
15:11:50 <Bert> ... We did not think about localizing the manifest.
15:12:14 <Bert> ... For the time being requires separate app for each language.
15:12:39 <Bert> ... We could think about localizing the manifest to have localized apps in a single package.
15:13:10 <Bert> ... I'm editor, but I cannot speak for the whole group, as we haven't discussed it. So this is just personal.
15:13:56 <Bert> ... Martin and I discussed a bit. Could have several manifests and a single "main" manifest, that links to the others.
15:14:02 <addison> q+
15:14:25 <addison> ack addison
15:15:19 <Bert> addison: I think you have to think as an app author and what the maintenance would be like. My company typically makes apps in some 30-35 languages.
15:15:36 <Bert> ... Have to consider thinks like default size, default orientation.
15:15:54 <Bert> ... Doing the same 35 times becomes hard to maintain.
15:16:24 <Bert> ... How can you recycle the settings across multiple files.
15:16:51 <Bert> ... But maybe these can files can generated, in which case it is less of an issue.
15:17:51 <Bert> ... Separete packages for each language is also hard for users, who have to pick among 30 apps and maybe switch apps just to change language.
15:18:27 <martin> q+
15:18:47 <addison> q+ to talk about language negotiation
15:19:00 <Bert> yongjing_zhang: Thanks for those comments. We maybe don't have to duplicate things in all manifests. But just initial thoughts for now.
15:19:23 <addison> ack martin
15:19:28 <Bert> ... We will discuss in the group. Appreciate more guidance.
15:19:46 <Bert> martin: We have been in touch with WebApps WG to be compatible with manifests.
15:20:12 <Bert> ... We haven't thought about solutions for localize the metadata in the manifest yet.
15:20:33 <addison> ack addison
15:20:33 <Zakim> addison, you wanted to talk about language negotiation
15:20:36 <Bert> ... But we are interested in the issue and will discuss it.
15:21:01 <Bert> addison: Language Negotiation may be something else to think about.
15:21:44 <Bert> ... You may be able to leave it to frameworks and not be precise about it, but good to say something.
15:22:33 <Bert> ... Imagine getting a request for Mexican Spanish which you don't have, but have a close match.
15:22:44 <Bert> ... Think about infrastructure.
15:24:09 <Bert> yongjing_zhang: The miniapp design comes from different existing implementations in the Chinese market. We are trying to find a common solution. Different styles. Android style and others.
15:25:34 <Bert> addison: You may not have to decide the implementation details. But you probably need to think about a common infrastructure, e.g., a common attribute for the locale, that app authors can use. There may be more happening at run time that you don't have to specify.
15:26:02 <Bert> ... Get to a standard that is interoperable. Otherwise not really a standard.
15:26:33 <r12a> q+
15:26:34 <Bert> yongjing_zhang: We'll discuss. I imagine it will be hard.
15:27:03 <Bert> addison: What do you want next? Come back and discuss here? Discuss via GitHub?
15:28:01 <Bert> yongjing_zhang: After a discussion in the group and some deeped understanding we'll come to you for more comments on a proposal.
15:28:13 <Bert> s/deeped/deeper/
15:28:24 <addison> ack r12a
15:28:53 <xfq> https://github.com/w3c/miniapp/issues/106
15:29:15 <Bert> r12a: We talked about localization. But I had the impression there was also a question about applying different directions to strings within a single app.
15:29:56 <Bert> ... There is a way to declare a direction at the top level in the manifest. But what if a single app contains strings in two languages?
15:30:35 <Bert> yongjing_zhang: We should address the two issues together, the localization and the two languages in one app.
15:31:30 <Bert> r12a: Specifying per language not enough. Have to specify it per string.
15:32:13 <Bert> ... Also each string may need a language, apart from the single toplevel language.
15:33:10 <Bert> addison: We generally think that is a requirement: top-level lang and direction and also per-string language and direction.
15:33:45 <Bert> ... Maybe a common structure for each string that includes the text, the direction and a language.
15:33:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/14-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:34:49 <Bert> r12a: It is a good idea to have a top-level lang and direction, and the possibility to override it for a particular string.
15:35:29 <Bert> ... Language may affect various things: choosing the font, line wrapping...
15:35:47 <fsasaki> q+
15:36:00 <addison> ack fsasaki
15:36:05 <Bert> yongjing_zhang: We will note it and discuss.
15:36:55 <Bert> fsasaki: It's a typical problem for packaging. Do we have existing examples we can point to?
15:38:03 <Bert> addison: There are examples, maybe in Android or iOS. I don't have a standard example off the top of my head.
15:38:07 <fsasaki> https://www.w3.org/TR/appmanifest/
15:38:37 <xfq> i18n issues in WAM: https://github.com/w3c/manifest/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3Ai18n-tracker
15:38:38 <addison> https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/
15:38:38 <Bert> r12a: Ditto. But let me put a link to string-meta.
15:38:46 <r12a> https://w3c.github.io/string-meta/
15:38:49 <xfq> (mostly localization issues rather than string-meta issues)
15:39:20 <Bert> r12a: Ir is probably a good idea for us to look for examples...
15:40:42 <Bert> David: When taking a multi-file approach, it is is good to look at a way to only encode the differences. A bit like the way CSS rules override other rules.
15:41:20 <Bert> martin: App manifest only declares a top level language now.
15:41:37 <xfq> https://w3c.github.io/pub-manifest/
15:41:58 <Bert> r12a: Maybe Ivan can help, Publication manifest  for EPUB has similar things,
15:42:42 <Bert> yongjing_zhang: This seems not just related to miniapp, but also webapp. We should look for a common solution.
15:43:13 <addison> agenda?
15:43:54 <Bert> yongjing_zhang: Thanks for your input. We need input from experts.
15:44:38 <Bert> addison: I'm always ready to schedule a telcon, even if timezones may be difficult.
15:47:24 <Bert> Topic: Case folding
15:48:01 <Bert> Bert: r12a's suggestion to do NFD and casefold, without NFC, might work, I think.
15:48:17 <Bert> addison: I've been thinking about that as well.
15:48:33 <Bert> ... But Unicode specifies it the other way.
15:48:48 <Bert> ... I tried some code. too.
15:49:10 <Bert> ... And why does Unicode specify it like that?
15:50:40 <Bert> r12a: Normalize first and then case-fold and then normalize:  that works. But I think I cocluded a few months ago that NFD and case-fold only work, too.
15:50:58 <Bert> addison: The subscript iota is the difficult case.
15:51:46 <Bert> ... We would look for cases.
15:52:13 <Bert> r12a: I think doing NFD first "levels the playing field".
15:52:27 <Bert> addison: So why does UNicode specify NFC?
15:52:59 <Bert> ... Maybe doing NFC at the end is just to make it nice.
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15:53:51 <Bert> r12a: I think I did something in Uniview... Could run the tables through the algo ans see if they are different.
15:54:48 <Bert> addison: I did that. I cannot think of combining marks that case-fold. I may write to Unicode to ask.
15:55:05 <Bert> s/ ans / and /
15:55:19 <addison> action: addison: check TUS and if necessary ping Unicode folks about D145 normalization case fold ordering questions
15:55:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-989 - Check tus and if necessary ping unicode folks about d145 normalization case fold ordering questions [on Addison Phillips - due 2021-01-21].
15:55:37 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 10
15:55:37 <Zakim> agendum 10 -- COGA icon review -- taken up [from addison]
15:55:42 <r12a> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1008
15:56:15 <addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#summary
15:56:58 <Bert> r12a: Lisa raised the issue in the i18n repo and somebody started answering there. So I updated the boilerplate text to make it clearer what the expected process is.
15:57:26 <Bert> xfq: Yes, people are aware now.
15:58:18 <Bert> r12a: The issue^^^ shows the things I noticed about the icons.
15:59:34 <Bert> addison: Seems they are trying to give a kind of best practice, not standardize the icons. Seems to be based a lot on using metaphors.
16:00:08 <Bert> David: Several concepts involve hands and gestures, which may be cultural.
16:02:25 <Bert> addison: Not sure how to advise them.
16:02:56 <Bert> .. What shall we do? You want to send comments to them?
16:03:15 <Bert> r12a: I can add text to my issue and send that.
16:03:56 <Bert> addison: Any other opinions?
16:04:21 <addison> Topic: AOB?
16:05:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/14-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:05:34 <addison> zakim, bye
16:05:34 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been addison, Atsushi, Fuqiao, Felix, JcK, Richard, Martin, Alvarez, martin_alvarez, Bert, fsasaki, Yongjing, Zhang, (Miniapp),
16:05:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n