16:03:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-curricula
16:03:07 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/01/05-wai-curricula-irc
16:03:28 <sloandr> sloandr has joined #wai-curricula
16:03:37 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, make logs Public
16:05:15 <dmontalvo> Topic: Selecting Scribe
16:05:17 <dmontalvo> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_Curricula/WAI_Curricula_Task_Force_Meetings
16:06:32 <Carlos> Carlos has joined #wai-curricula
16:06:43 <Carlos> present+
16:06:46 <sloandr> present+
16:06:50 <shadi> present+
16:06:57 <Carlos> scribe: Carlos
16:07:52 <Carlos> zakim, take up next
16:07:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Rewording for "Recite related requirements" -- taken up [from dmontalvo]
16:09:10 <Carlos> dmontalvo: we've crossposting several resources
16:09:26 <Carlos> ... recite doesn't seem to communicate well
16:09:32 <Carlos> ... according to multiple feedback
16:09:39 <Carlos> ... what could be a good alternative
16:10:10 <Carlos> sloandr: 'describe' is probably better
16:10:22 <Carlos> ... 'recite' doesn't imply understanding
16:11:01 <Carlos> +1
16:11:22 <Carlos> shadi: is 'describe' a bit vague?
16:12:02 <Howard> Howard has joined #wai-curricula
16:12:11 <Howard> present+ Howard
16:12:53 <Carlos> sloandr: developers need to understand if a requirement has been met
16:13:21 <Carlos> ... 'describe' requires understanding
16:15:26 <Carlos> shadi: I really liked 'related'
16:15:48 <Carlos> Howard: 'relate' requires context. something is related to another
16:16:40 <Carlos> ... something that shows the concept is understood works well for me
16:17:01 <Carlos> dmontalvo: 'describe' seems to be consensual
16:17:17 <Carlos> zakim, take up next
16:17:17 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Rewording for "Topics to support the teaching sequence" was "Topics to achieve the learning outcomes" -- taken up [from dmontalvo]
16:18:04 <Carlos> dmontalvo: there was a comment that "topics" do not achieve anything by themselves
16:18:29 <Carlos> ... I've changed it to "topics to support the teaching sequence" but that didn't work either
16:19:09 <sloandr> I had wondered about the phrase "develop the learning outcomes" as used in this resource from the University of Toronto: https://teaching.utoronto.ca/teaching-support/course-design/developing-learning-outcomes/what-are-learning-outcomes/
16:19:25 <sloandr> But then "develop" is ambiguous given the subject of this curriculum
16:19:41 <dmontalvo> https://deploy-preview-273--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/developer-modules/page-structure/
16:22:04 <Carlos> sloandr: the Univ. of Toronto uses "topics do develop the learning outcomes"
16:22:15 <Carlos> ... this implies a collaboration between teacher and learner
16:24:06 <Carlos> Howard: I think all of them could work
16:24:33 <Carlos> shadi: I'm in sync with Howard. I dislike the "teaching sequence"
16:24:58 <Carlos> ... might there be an opportunity for active language
16:25:14 <Carlos> ... "topics to help you develop your learning outcomes"
16:26:18 <Carlos> dmontalvo: we could move to "topics to develop the learning outcomes" without a following explanatory sentence
16:26:52 <Carlos> sloandr: will we have to change previously published curriculum?
16:27:30 <Carlos> dmontalvo: there are already several things that will need to be retrofitted
16:27:37 <Carlos> ... this will be just another one
16:28:09 <Carlos> sloandr: we used "topics to teach"
16:28:26 <Carlos> dmontalvo: followed by an explanatory sentence
16:28:49 <Carlos> sloandr: I don't feel strongly enough about the need to change
16:29:20 <Carlos> dmontalvo: I'll think about the change
16:29:45 <Carlos> ... we can roll back to what we had before
16:29:55 <Carlos> ... which is equal to what we have in the foundations module
16:30:11 <Carlos> Howard: I have a little problem with developing
16:30:25 <Carlos> ... we're not really learning developing the learning outcomes
16:30:46 <Carlos> dontalvo: I'll think more about this
16:30:57 <Carlos> zakim, take up next
16:30:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- "Code" versus 'implement/apply coding techniques" -- taken up [from dmontalvo]
16:31:53 <Carlos> dmontalvo: several people suggested changing "code" to apply or implement coding techniques
16:32:05 <Carlos> ... I'm wondering what is the added value of this change
16:33:27 <Carlos> sloandr: in a curriculum for web developers "code" has a very specific meaning
16:33:36 <Carlos> ... while in other contexts it can be ambiguous
16:34:13 <Carlos> ... in those contexts I would use "implement mechanisms to" instead of "code"
16:34:34 <Carlos> ... but for this module it might not be needed
16:35:08 <Carlos> shadi: I like "applying coding techniques"
16:35:58 <Carlos> Howard: I see a problem with "code mechanisms"... it can be a noun
16:36:53 <shadi> [[code labels to identify menus provided on a page
16:36:53 <shadi> code menu structures as lists, sub-lists, and list items so that they have semantic meaning
16:36:53 <shadi> code menu styles so that menus appear and behave as required, for example on hover and focus
16:36:53 <shadi> code menus so that they resize depending on different viewport sizes
16:36:54 <shadi> code fly-out menus in a way that their state is communicated to people using different assistive technologies and adaptive strategies]]
16:39:20 <Carlos> Carlos: "applying coding techniques" seems to me to be programming oriented
16:40:00 <Carlos> shadi: it is... but programming accessibility
16:40:19 <Carlos> shadi: how would these examples be rewritten?
16:41:06 <Carlos> sloandr: the difficulty here is the use of "code" as a verb
16:41:12 <Carlos> ... we could use "write code"
16:41:30 <shadi> +1 to "write code"
16:41:42 <Carlos> dmontalvo: the first example would become "write code for labels ..."
16:42:42 <Carlos> +1 to "write code"
16:42:52 <Carlos> Howard: I don't have a problem with "code"
16:43:07 <Carlos> ... and I think varying language is fine
16:43:37 <Carlos> dmontalvo: we need to go back sentence by sentence and check what works
16:46:06 <Carlos> zakim, take up next
16:46:06 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- "demonstrate and explain" for all the introductory bullets? -- taken up [from dmontalvo]
16:47:18 <shadi> [[
16:47:18 <shadi>     demonstrate how people with disabilities rely on headings, sections, and other structures to orient themselves and navigate within web pages
16:47:18 <shadi>     demonstrate how people with disabilities rely on semantics in web page coding to identify page components and understand their meaning
16:47:19 <shadi>     explain coding techniques to convey the structure and semantics in accessible content]]
16:47:24 <Carlos> dmontalvo: in the introduction of all modules, we have bullets that start with "demonstrate how" or "explain"
16:48:02 <Carlos> ... some comments were made that we should be using "demonstrate and explain" in all bullets
16:48:16 <Carlos> ... demonstrate can be perceived as only the practical aspects
16:48:26 <Carlos> ... and explain just the theoretical aspects
16:48:55 <Carlos> ... using both would clarify what the courses should do, or would it become too wordy?
16:50:14 <Carlos> sloandr: I like demonstrate to motivate the need, and explain to show how developers could achieve their goals
16:50:31 <Carlos> ... having the distinct wording works very well
16:50:50 <Carlos> Howard: I don't think it needs changing
16:51:13 <Carlos> Carlos: I don't think it needs changing
16:51:30 <Carlos> shadi: I also like the way it is currently done
16:53:21 <shadi> https://deploy-preview-273--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/#tips-on-teaching-accessibility
16:53:24 <Carlos> shadi: we're still working on the front page section
16:53:43 <Carlos> ... the tips for teaching section
16:54:03 <Carlos> ... where we present the need for both demonstrating and explaining
16:54:42 <dmontalvo> Topic: Next Steps
16:55:21 <Carlos> dmontalvo: I'll keep working in the coming days and I'll keep you posted
16:56:11 <Carlos> ... we might have another survey but that is not certain yet
16:56:23 <Carlos> ... it will be discussed with the chairs
16:57:21 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:57:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/05-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo
16:59:14 <dmontalvo> Meeting: WAI Curricula Task Force Teleconference
16:59:19 <dmontalvo> Chair: Daniel
16:59:22 <dmontalvo> Regrets: Sarah
16:59:29 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/05-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo
17:12:54 <dmontalvo> s/crossposting several resources/been cross posting several roles and responsibilities/
17:15:37 <dmontalvo> s/what could be a good alternative/what could be a good alternative?/
17:17:57 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:17:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/05-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo
17:26:08 <dmontalvo> s/we might have another survey but that is not certain yet/we might have another intermediate survey to discuss significant changes, such as those that may result from the way we deal with the "code" issues. That is not certain yet/
17:28:12 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:28:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/05-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo
17:29:34 <dmontalvo> s/dontalvo/dmontalvo/
17:30:03 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:30:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/05-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo
18:02:08 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, bye
18:02:08 <RRSAgent> I see no action items