14:03:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub
14:03:28 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/12/18-epub-irc
14:03:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:03:31 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
14:03:51 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2020-12-18: https://www.w3.org/mid/9F21D1E8-E174-49D2-BE12-BC0951CA67D4@gmail.com
14:03:52 <ivan> Chair: wendy
14:03:52 <ivan> Date: 2020-12-18
14:03:52 <ivan> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/mid/9F21D1E8-E174-49D2-BE12-BC0951CA67D4@gmail.com
14:03:52 <ivan> Meeting: EPUB 3 Working Group Telco
14:52:12 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
14:52:18 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #epub
14:54:53 <dauwhe> present+
14:58:00 <MasakazuKitahara> MasakazuKitahara has joined #epub
14:58:52 <CircularKen> CircularKen has joined #epub
14:58:56 <LauraB__> LauraB__ has joined #epub
14:58:57 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #epub
14:59:26 <ivan> present+
14:59:39 <LauraB__> present+
14:59:44 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
14:59:51 <toshiakikoike> toshiakikoike has joined #epub
14:59:58 <CircularKen> present+
15:00:05 <toshiakikoike> present+
15:00:17 <Avneesh> present+
15:01:09 <zhengxu> present+
15:01:10 <tzviya> present+
15:01:17 <zhengxu> join later in video
15:01:26 <ivan> present+ george
15:01:28 <ivan> present+ zhengxu
15:01:34 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #epub
15:01:37 <ivan> present+ brady
15:01:45 <duga> duga has joined #epub
15:01:49 <ivan> present+ laurent
15:01:54 <CharlesL> present+
15:01:56 <duga> present+
15:01:58 <ivan> present+ LauraB__
15:02:08 <laurent_> laurent_ has joined #epub
15:02:13 <laurent_> present+
15:02:53 <George> George has joined #epub
15:03:01 <dauwhe> zakim, pick a victim
15:03:01 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose george
15:03:04 <George> present+
15:03:23 <George> scribe:
15:03:38 <duga> scribe+
15:04:05 <duga> dauwhe: I will chair. Any new people?
15:04:28 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #epub
15:04:38 <duga> ivan: Admin stuff about rejoining
15:04:58 <wendyreid> present+
15:05:11 <duga> ... Grace period still in place for 45 days, but pull requests from orgs that have not rejoined will be flagged
15:05:14 <George> q+
15:05:26 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #epub
15:05:26 <duga> ... So please rejoin if you do actual work in the group
15:05:35 <Avneesh> I hope it is not flagging Matt's PR
15:05:41 <dauwhe> ack ge
15:05:41 <duga> dauwhe: This is due to the new patent policy change
15:05:58 <duga> George: Who does this? Personal or AC rep?
15:06:07 <duga> ivan: AC rep does it.
15:06:35 <ivan> topic: in preperation to html5 in epub3
15:06:54 <duga> dauwhe: Reading systems and xhtml vs html
15:07:26 <duga> ... Thanks to those that already responded to their uses of xhtml vs html
15:07:41 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #epub
15:07:46 <duga> ... Other RS vendors, please provide this information
15:07:48 <ivan> present+ hadrien
15:08:18 <ivan> present+ billk
15:08:25 <George> q+
15:08:27 <duga> ... I have tried a few via side loading and some of them work, but want a proper answer from everyone
15:08:31 <dauwhe> ack geor
15:08:35 <duga> ... this is to inform discussion next year
15:08:57 <duga> George: DAISY contacted devs and asked about support of features
15:09:32 <ivan> q+
15:09:33 <duga> ... "we" [DAISY or the WG?] could take the list of known RSes and ask them about xhtml vs html
15:09:34 <duga> q+
15:09:37 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #epub
15:09:41 <duga> ... or do we just want a feel
15:09:56 <gpellegrino> present+
15:10:14 <duga> dauwhe: Just trying to get a feel to understand cost
15:10:18 <duga> ... so might be too soon
15:10:22 <laurent_> q+
15:10:30 <tzviya> q+
15:11:10 <Garth> Garth has joined #epub
15:11:17 <duga> ivan: A little worried that DAISY might end up in the middle of a discussion it doesn't want to be in
15:11:21 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:11:51 <duga> ... it would be helpful if those contacts could be disclosed to the WG so we could contact them
15:11:56 <Garth> q?
15:12:25 <duga> George: No problem, we can hand out the list, may need to ask a couple of people, but not a big deal
15:12:33 <dauwhe> ack dug
15:12:54 <dauwhe> duga: I don't think this is too early to start asking
15:12:54 <wendyreid> duga: I don't think this is too early to start asking
15:12:57 <dauwhe> :)
15:13:01 <wendyreid> ... there's not too many RSs in this group
15:13:19 <wendyreid> ... it's worthwhile to check in and let people know we're having this discussion
15:13:34 <wendyreid> ... we need to reach out to the community
15:13:36 <wendyreid> scribe+
15:13:37 <dauwhe> q?
15:13:41 <dauwhe> ack laur
15:13:44 <duga> scribe+
15:13:44 <Garth> q?
15:14:09 <duga> Laurent_: this is a big change and we really need to ask about it now
15:14:11 <Hadrien> q+
15:14:39 <dauwhe> ack tz
15:14:39 <Garth> q?
15:14:42 <duga> ... less RSes can even support html5. The issue may not be cost, but will be RSes left behind that will never support html5
15:15:04 <duga> tzviya: Coming at this as publisher and dev experience from epubcheck
15:15:48 <Garth> q+
15:15:48 <duga> ... don't want to muddy the waters about content, but would be helpful to understand if the issue is supporting two types of books, or if it is making  tools, etc
15:15:51 <dauwhe> ack ha
15:15:55 <duga> ... want to know where the issues are
15:16:14 <duga> Hadrien: Worried about the consistency
15:16:36 <duga> ... We can either be more aligned with the web to make it easier to use html tools to build content, etc
15:16:44 <duga> ... or are we being conservative?
15:16:52 <dauwhe> q+
15:16:53 <duga> ... We seem to be doing both
15:17:20 <duga> ... We have been very conservative, now we are not with this discussion
15:17:41 <dauwhe> ack gar
15:17:46 <ivan> scribejs, issue 636
15:17:57 <duga> dauwhe: Good point, we aren't making a decisiion here, just want to understand where we are and where we might want to go
15:18:24 <duga> Garth: HTML serialization won't work out of the box, but doesn't mean we are against it
15:18:39 <duga> ... The issue about stuck in time RSes is a good one
15:18:57 <Avneesh> q+ to comment on EPUBCheck
15:18:58 <duga> ... As is the issue about direction
15:19:10 <duga> ... But we also need to talk to publishers and see if they care
15:19:29 <dauwhe> ack dau
15:19:37 <duga> ... Need to understand if RSes are willing to adapt, not understand what they do now
15:20:02 <duga> dauwhe: Let's get back on track. We aren't discussing the issue now, we are just preparing to discuss it
15:20:12 <dauwhe> ack avn
15:20:12 <Zakim> Avneesh, you wanted to comment on EPUBCheck
15:20:45 <duga> Avneesh: Also please remember there is project to move epubcheck to the w3c html validator
15:21:06 <duga> ... if that prototype works, then it solves the problem of epubcheck not working with html5
15:21:17 <duga> ... second, it is good to start collecting data now
15:22:00 <duga> dauwhe: Need to do some boring stuff called work
15:22:02 <ivan> topic: release identifier construction @issue 1440
15:22:02 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1440
15:22:29 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #epub
15:22:41 <duga> ... The release identifier comes up from time to time (id + release time)
15:22:50 <duga> ... So you can figure out new vs update
15:23:11 <duga> ... This is really just advice to RSes on how to distinguish books
15:23:26 <ivan> q+
15:23:27 <duga> ... So really hard to test. How do you determine if there was an error?
15:23:31 <Garth> q?
15:23:32 <ivan> present+ zhengxu
15:23:42 <Hadrien> q+
15:23:45 <duga> ... Should this be in the appendix non-normatively?
15:23:46 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:23:57 <Garth> q+
15:24:05 <duga> ivan: Is it used ever by anyone?
15:24:19 <wendyreid> q+
15:24:22 <duga> dauwhe: That is my favorite question
15:24:22 <dauwhe> ack had
15:24:41 <duga> Hadrien: Partial reply: There are roughly 2 groups of RSes
15:25:00 <duga> ... one where content always comes from a controlled warehouse (eg big retailers)
15:25:21 <duga> ... second is more generic that can support any type of epub
15:25:23 <dauwhe> similar issue: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1310
15:25:37 <duga> ... this id makes more sense for the second group
15:26:17 <ivan> q+
15:26:17 <wendyreid> q-
15:26:18 <duga> ... We are talking about unique id, but also saying maybe it isn't unique, so maybe don't rely on it. Very confusing for RS
15:26:23 <dauwhe> q+
15:26:31 <duga> ... we are building a spec that should work for all types of RSes
15:26:48 <duga> ... Personally know that some RSes in the second group do use that id
15:27:17 <dauwhe> ack garth
15:27:19 <duga> ... Recs about looking at title is often wrong (eg if the change was to fix the title)
15:27:49 <CircularKen> q+
15:27:51 <duga> Garth: We are mostly a retailer, but also allow side loading. We ignore it.
15:27:52 <dauwhe> ack iv
15:28:19 <duga> ivan: Need to be careful, there are two notions the UID and the release ID
15:28:35 <duga> ... This creates an identifier based on some info in the epub
15:28:42 <Garth> q?
15:28:47 <duga> ... this issue is whether that algo makes sense
15:29:09 <dauwhe> ack dau
15:29:16 <duga> Hadrien: If this is specifically about release id, then I don't know who is using it
15:29:23 <duga> ... UID is different answer
15:29:38 <Garth> s/We ignore it./We ignore both the UID and the mod date-time./
15:29:39 <duga> dauwhe: Not discussing removal of id or release date
15:29:58 <Hadrien> q+
15:30:26 <duga> ... This is about uniqueness of UID, what happens when two books have the same UID, etc
15:30:40 <zhengxu> q+
15:30:44 <duga> ... We probably don't want to start dictating how RSes present their libraries
15:30:47 <dauwhe> ack ken
15:30:50 <dauwhe> ack circ
15:31:01 <duga> ... I would say we remove this concept since it can't really be tested
15:31:05 <Garth> +1
15:31:08 <tzviya> +1 to dauwhe
15:31:20 <duga> ken: Maybe have a revision number?
15:31:33 <duga> ... to make it clear there is id and version explicitly
15:31:49 <duga> s/ken/circularken/
15:32:03 <dauwhe> ack ha
15:32:13 <duga> Hadrien: But that is the issue at stake
15:32:18 <dauwhe> q?
15:32:24 <duga> ... epub 2 only had uid
15:32:35 <duga> ... this was added in epub 3, but isn't really used
15:32:51 <duga> ... first group doesn't really care, and second group doesn't handle versioning at all
15:33:02 <tzviya> q+ to not go down the version/revision rabbit hole
15:33:28 <duga> ... don't think we should be in the business of specifying how these are used
15:33:43 <Garth> q?
15:33:55 <dauwhe> ack zhe
15:33:55 <gpellegrino> q+
15:34:00 <duga> ... Would like to not say anything about UID, just say what it is and leave it to the RS implementors to figure it out
15:34:39 <Garth> q+ To propose that it seems we're on the same page re mod date/time; baby step remove that?
15:34:45 <dauwhe> ack tz
15:34:45 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to not go down the version/revision rabbit hole
15:34:49 <duga> jeff: Will be very difficult to test something that is undefined
15:35:07 <duga> tzviya: Want to caution about versions and revisions
15:35:11 <dauwhe> q+
15:35:29 <duga> ... Not changing too much in the spec is good guidance
15:35:46 <dauwhe> ack gp
15:35:52 <duga> ... There has been a lot of discusion about rev vs version, don't want to take it up here
15:35:57 <ivan> q+
15:36:10 <duga> gpellegrino: Publishers don't seem to use this, we use ISBN and file hashes
15:36:13 <dauwhe> ack gar
15:36:13 <Zakim> Garth, you wanted to propose that it seems we're on the same page re mod date/time; baby step remove that?
15:36:51 <duga> Garth: We seem to agree that release ID is not really used, and even if it is doesn't need to be in the spec
15:37:08 <duga> ... So we seem to agree on this issue
15:37:58 <duga> dauwhe: Makes sense. We won't comment on metadata construction in the specs
15:38:18 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:38:19 <duga> ... proposal would be to remove that language without touching required metadata
15:38:43 <duga> ivan: Need to be careful about how this is phrased
15:39:05 <dauwhe> ack dau
15:39:06 <duga> ... are we proposing removal or moving to non-normative section/document
15:39:20 <duga> ... Also DC terms has a version term, so we have that too
15:39:44 <duga> ... May want to mention it, but no reason why it couldn't just be used
15:40:02 <duga> ... But I propose that dauwhe propose something
15:40:23 <duga> dauwhe: [typing noises]
15:40:37 <dauwhe> Proposal: remove language around the concept of a release identifier, while retaining the mandatory unique ID and dcterms:modified metadata
15:40:51 <duga> ... I don't there is a compat issue here
15:41:14 <duga> ... don't think there is any testable change here
15:41:17 <wendyreid> +1
15:41:38 <ivan> +1
15:41:39 <duga> ivan: We can say any valid 3.2 will be valid with 3.3, this change does not alter that
15:41:46 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
15:41:50 <duga> dauwhe: This is basically editorial
15:41:50 <George> +1
15:41:51 <duga> +1
15:41:55 <CharlesL> +1
15:42:05 <Hadrien> +1
15:42:07 <Garth> +π
15:42:07 <duga> ... Doesn't change behavior or authoring
15:42:15 <LauraB__> +1
15:42:24 <CircularKen> +1
15:42:29 <tzviya> +1
15:42:33 <gpellegrino> +1
15:43:08 <zhengxu> +1
15:43:14 <duga> dauwhe: Resolved!
15:43:29 <dauwhe> Resolved: remove language around the concept of a release identifier, while retaining the mandatory unique ID and dcterms:modified metadata
15:43:44 <dauwhe> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/1310
15:43:51 <duga> ... next 1310
15:44:02 <ivan> Topic: Non-unique unique identifiers and reading system conformance @issue 1310
15:44:31 <dauwhe> dauwhe: the spec says "Reading Systems MUST NOT depend on the Unique Identifier being unique to one and only one EPUB Publication. Determining whether two EPUB Publications with the same Unique Identifier represent different versions of the same publication (see Release Identifier), or different publications, might require inspecting other metadata, such as the titles or authors."
15:44:39 <Garth> q?
15:44:44 <Garth> q+
15:44:56 <duga> ... Has no idea how to test this
15:45:24 <duga> ... Just make two books with the same UID and see what happens?
15:45:31 <ivan> q+
15:45:34 <zhengxu> q+
15:45:37 <duga> ... Seems like implementation advice
15:45:50 <duga> ... Would not be sad to see this go away
15:45:58 <wendyreid> q+
15:46:14 <dauwhe> ack gar
15:46:38 <dauwhe> ack iva
15:46:51 <duga> Garth: Concept is useful, maybe turn must to should, remove ref to release id and declare victory
15:47:13 <duga> ivan: Need to be careful about testability being the only criteria
15:47:16 <tzviya> +1 to ivan
15:47:50 <duga> ... when it comes to metadata, we can't necessarily depend on testability
15:48:02 <dauwhe> q+
15:48:08 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:48:16 <zhengxu> q-
15:48:16 <duga> ... since eg libraries want metadata for their purposes we can't test, but we may still want to require it
15:48:32 <dauwhe> ack wen
15:48:37 <duga> ... That is a general comment on using testable as a criteria
15:49:06 <duga> wendyreid: Think it is the case that we have more bad uids than correct ones
15:49:39 <duga> ... Create our own uids since they are better than what we get
15:49:44 <laurent_> q+
15:50:01 <duga> dauwhe: Maybe move to a note?
15:50:02 <laurent_> q-
15:50:08 <duga> ... non-normatively
15:50:17 <ivan> q+
15:50:22 <duga> ... Which also solves the testing issue
15:50:37 <laurent_> +1 to Dave for making it a note (the 2 paragraphs, one about the "static" aspect and one about RS)
15:50:37 <dauwhe> ack dauw
15:50:42 <dauwhe> ack Bill
15:50:49 <duga> ... And cleans up the spec a bit
15:50:50 <wendyreid> +1 to Dave
15:51:09 <duga> Bill_Kasdorf: We have a combo of a spec with recommended practice
15:51:45 <duga> ... These are often kept separate, prefer that since it keeps the spec only a spec, and allows for updating recs more easily
15:51:50 <CharlesL> +1 to Bill / Dave
15:52:09 <dauwhe> ack ivan
15:52:10 <duga> ivan: Trying to reconcile this. We have to be consistent with all the metadata
15:52:27 <duga> ... For instance author must be correct, but that is also untestable
15:53:12 <tzviya> q+
15:53:19 <duga> ... May need to clarify for all metadata that it is required, and there is an implicit must, and give a blanket statement that any of it could be wrong
15:53:33 <Garth> q+ For quick AOB at the end.
15:53:39 <dauwhe> Proposal: make statement about reading systems not depending on uniqueness of unique ID a note rather than a normative statement
15:53:45 <dauwhe> ack tz
15:54:03 <duga> tzviya: As a publisher, the way the metadata is currently is very clear
15:54:24 <duga> ... and while it is processed in different ways, this is a very easy part of the spec to understand
15:54:44 <duga> ... One major complaint is the spec is already too broken up
15:54:45 <dauwhe> ack gar
15:54:45 <Zakim> Garth, you wanted to quick AOB at the end.
15:54:48 <duga> ... don't want to add to that
15:54:51 <Hadrien> q+
15:54:58 <dauwhe> ack ha
15:55:15 <duga> Hadrien: prefer to make non-normative and also revisit the text overall
15:55:32 <duga> ... don't think it needs to exist at all
15:55:49 <George_> George_ has joined #epub
15:56:01 <duga> dauwhe: Two proposals - 1 make it non-normative or 2 remove entirely
15:56:48 <duga> Garth: If we make it non-normative it might be rewritten
15:57:05 <wendyreid> +1
15:57:12 <Avneesh> 1
15:57:13 <Hadrien> 2
15:57:16 <CharlesL> 1
15:57:19 <duga> dauwhe: vote 1 for non-normative, 2 for remove, 0 to abstain
15:57:24 <CircularKen> 0
15:57:25 <ivan> 1
15:57:26 <ivan> 1 for George
15:57:26 <laurent_> 2
15:57:27 <wendyreid> George: 2
15:57:27 <toshiakikoike> 1
15:57:29 <Garth> +1 (make non-normative; shrink hopefully; but retain at least the concept)
15:57:32 <Bill_Kasdorf> 1
15:57:36 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
15:57:40 <tzviya> 1
15:57:43 <gpellegrino> 1
15:57:44 <zhengxu> 1
15:57:45 <ivan> +1 to Garth
15:57:56 <LauraB__> +1
15:58:07 <ivan> q+
15:58:14 <dauwhe> ack iva
15:58:40 <laurent_> +1 to Ivan
15:58:52 <duga> ivan: Can we agree to make non-normative and request new, shorter text?
15:59:02 <duga> ... then vote on the new text later
15:59:18 <duga> all: rumblings of assent
15:59:32 <dauwhe> Resolved: make statement about uniqueness of unique ID in #1310 non-normative
16:00:11 <duga> Garth: Volunteer audio books time slot. Something about moving back two hours
16:00:24 <duga> dauwhe + wendyreid: chairs will discuss
16:00:40 <duga> dauwhe: Thanks for actual progress!
16:01:16 <LauraB__> LauraB__ has left #epub
16:01:27 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
16:01:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dauwhe, ivan, LauraB__, MasakazuKitahara, CircularKen, toshiakikoike, Avneesh, zhengxu, tzviya, george, brady, laurent, CharlesL, duga,
16:01:30 <Zakim> ... laurent_, wendyreid, hadrien, billk, gpellegrino, π
16:01:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:01:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/18-epub-minutes.html Zakim
16:01:32 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:01:36 <Zakim> Zakim has left #epub
16:01:41 <laurent_> laurent_ has left #epub
16:14:46 <gpellegr_> gpellegr_ has joined #epub
16:24:18 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino has joined #epub
16:29:10 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #epub
17:27:29 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #epub
17:30:10 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
18:08:37 <ivan_> ivan_ has joined #epub
20:40:32 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub
22:25:59 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #epub