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16:54:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/12/15-pbg-irc
16:54:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:54:24 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Business Group
16:54:32 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Dec/0005.html
16:55:02 <Ralph> regrets: WendyR
16:55:11 <Ralph> present: Cristina, Ralph
16:58:00 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbg
16:58:35 <Ralph> present+ Liisa
16:58:45 <Ralph> present+ Wolfgang
16:59:25 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbg
17:02:00 <ivan> present+
17:02:08 <Ralph> present+ Daihei
17:02:20 <tzviya> present+
17:02:31 <Karen> Karen has joined #pbg
17:02:40 <Karen> present+
17:02:44 <Ralph> present+ Bill, George
17:02:45 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg
17:03:08 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
17:03:24 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
17:05:10 <Garth> present+ Garth
17:05:47 <Garth> scribe+ Garth
17:06:18 <Garth> topic: EU Copyright & TDM regulations
17:06:35 <Garth> Liisa: Is there work we should be doing in this area?
17:06:55 <Cristina> Cristina has joined #pbg
17:07:10 <Cristina> present+
17:07:10 <Garth> Impacts all copyright holders for any content residing in Europe.
17:07:12 <tzviya> q+
17:07:24 <Cristina> q+
17:07:31 <Garth> ... Should we be working thorugh use-cases.
17:07:39 <Garth> s/Impacts/... Impacts/
17:07:42 <George> George has joined #pbg
17:07:54 <George> present+
17:07:58 <Garth> Tzviya: What would be goal of the use-cases be?   Yes, does impact all of us.
17:08:23 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pbg
17:08:30 <Avneesh> present+
17:08:43 <Garth> liisamk: Should look at it from a legal spective -- can we make people of aware of legal requirements... we can't create standard.
17:09:00 <Garth> ... Use cases related to publishing business needs.
17:09:23 <Garth> ... Thoughts/concerns?
17:09:28 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:09:37 <liisamk> ack Cristina
17:10:16 <George> q+
17:10:19 <Garth> Cristina: Doesn't think use-cases are what's needed; what they need to know if there is interest in finding a solution that can be proposed to the EU Commission.
17:10:37 <ivan> q+
17:10:39 <tzviya> q+
17:10:41 <Garth> ... If not time/interest, we should just say no.
17:10:42 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/11/24-pbg-minutes#item01 24-Nov Text Data Minining discussion
17:11:06 <Garth> ... They don't think it's important to have a full standard -- just requirements and proposed solution.
17:11:09 <ivan> q- later
17:11:15 <Garth> ... Small working group on that?
17:11:33 <Garth> ... Unclear if such interest exists?
17:11:56 <Garth> ... Time is running short.  We need to let them know.
17:12:42 <Ralph> [see slides 6-7 of -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Nov/att-0009/TDM_PBG.pdf "Laurent's 24-Nov presentation" ]
17:12:54 <Garth> George: With data privacy & collection issue -- issues with tracking titles read, bookmarks, reading progression, highlights -- is that all part of this?
17:13:21 <Garth> ... I=s it bigger/smaller than that?
17:13:26 <Garth> s/=///
17:14:00 <liisamk> q+
17:14:08 <Garth> Cristina: If a crawler wants to mine, there should be vocabulary to expression rights to mine.
17:14:10 <ivan> ack George
17:14:11 <liisamk> ack George
17:14:35 <Garth> ... not for people, but for content.
17:14:50 <Garth> ... Vocab to design these mining rights.
17:15:07 <Garth> George: More from of publisher perspective?  Nothing really personal?
17:15:16 <Garth> ivan: Whatever data is there.
17:15:44 <Garth> liisamk: Actual content not reading/purchasing data.
17:16:24 <Garth> ... Not clear who the miners are and how they would access it with.  Is it only trusted partners in the distribution cycle?
17:16:30 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:16:30 <Garth> tzviya: +1
17:16:33 <tzviya> q-
17:16:42 <liisamk> ack ivan
17:17:58 <Garth> ivan: What Larant wanted: help in tech work to be done (instructions to mining bot); and, a look over their shoulders to provide business input on their tech work.
17:18:15 <wolfgang> s/Larant/Laurent/
17:18:19 <Karen> s/Larant/Laurent
17:18:26 <tzviya> q+
17:18:31 <Garth> Christina: Need language of specifying these rights.
17:18:34 <liisamk> ack liisamk
17:19:14 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:20:33 <Garth> tzviya: Tech proposals in the scholarly world: robot-text, PDF XMP, identifiers to resolve cross-refs -- not too helpful in the trade world.   What kinda of Metadata can exist that is inseperable from the content ?
17:20:48 <cristina> cristina has joined #pbg
17:20:53 <Garth> ... Don't have these identifiers in the trade world.
17:21:29 <Garth> ... How is metadata associated with contnet?
17:21:45 <Garth> s/contnet/content/
17:22:17 <Garth> liisamk: We are interested, don't have a lot of time.  Put together some sort of workshop with them to define business requirements?
17:22:20 <Daihei> +1 to Liisa
17:22:51 <Garth> tzviya: Business input not needed now, it's technical input that's needed.
17:23:20 <Garth> cristina: Maybe next level of detail of technical discussion with Laurent?
17:23:28 <Ralph> -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NwtWv_ESS4ZhaHDHWnDSQSJKHrfRmLNjDTPdwNE3aeA/edit "TDM Reservation Protocol" [Nov 2020 draft document cited by Laurent]
17:23:30 <Garth> ... create small working group?
17:23:42 <Garth> ... we may take too long.
17:24:12 <Ralph> [[
17:24:12 <Ralph> Members of the European Publishing Industry are therefore seeking collaboration with W3C and BSA members involved in the development of TDM platforms or services, for the specification of a simple and practical technical solution capable of expressing the rules set by the new EU Copyright Directive - Art.4.
17:24:13 <Ralph> ]]
17:25:12 <Garth> garth: Second tech meeting is an easy thing to do?
17:25:35 <Garth> cristina: Can try to find out what they really want.
17:26:41 <Garth> Ralph: +1 Cristina.  EDRLab could propose a W3C Community Group -- maybe leading to WG status.  Would such CG get populated?
17:27:00 <Garth> q+
17:27:00 <ivan> q+
17:27:08 <ivan> ack Ralph
17:27:09 <liisamk> ack Ralph
17:27:13 <liisamk> ack Garth
17:27:14 <Ralph> scribe+
17:27:39 <Ralph> Garth: if Cristina chats with Laurent, she could ask him if a Community Group is a useful place to start
17:28:04 <Garth> garth: Cristina should chat with Laurent (maybe with Ralph too).
17:28:09 <Daihei> q+
17:28:10 <Ralph> Cristina: seems like a good idea; we'll have to see if there's enough commitment to make a CG
17:28:10 <Garth> cristina: Let's do it.
17:28:21 <liisamk> ack ivan
17:29:19 <Garth> ivan: Does CG give them what they need?  They already have some sort of group.  What they may need is really feedback from BG.
17:29:24 <liisamk> +1 to ivan
17:29:39 <Garth> ... But the phone call SG.  Maybe Ivan to join too.
17:29:50 <Garth> +1
17:29:59 <Garth> cristina: I will organize.
17:30:04 <liisamk> ack daihei
17:31:15 <Garth> Daihei: I would like to join too.  Did get some feedback from Laurent's report.  Will try to gather interest from Japanese publishers.
17:31:18 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/12/08-pbg-minutes.html#t01 08-Dec TDM discussion record (Asia/North America BG call)
17:31:49 <Garth> topic: Audio & Video enhancements.
17:32:08 <Garth> liisamk: Is there a need to remote remote A/V references?
17:32:09 <Garth> q+
17:32:19 <Garth> ... hard to use IRL.
17:32:41 <George> q+
17:32:51 <Garth> ... A/V not realy taken up by trade publishing.  But, Edu is another story.
17:32:52 <liisamk> ack Garth
17:33:22 <Ralph> Garth: the discussion we had in the EPUB WG on this topic...
17:33:25 <Ralph> ... we've done part of this
17:33:35 <Ralph> ... tags can reference resources that do not require fallbacks
17:33:47 <Ralph> ... the example that was raised was putting a Youtube video in an iframe
17:34:00 <Ralph> ... @@
17:34:10 <Ralph> ... reading systems ought to support @@
17:34:32 <Ralph> ... AV tags do part of this
17:34:34 <liisamk> ack George
17:34:40 <ivan> q+
17:35:42 <Garth> George: We're being criticized my mainstream folks -- not keeping up with inclusion of video clips.  We should provide help and guidance on such usage.
17:35:45 <liisamk> ack ivan
17:36:22 <Garth> ivan: If we go too far, we depart from a "book in box" and offline usage.
17:36:52 <liisamk> q+
17:37:26 <tzviya> q+
17:37:50 <Garth> liisamk: Hear what Dave (via Ivan) says -- but more and more content wants to have links to Web to operate well.
17:37:56 <Avneesh> q+
17:38:09 <Garth> ... Download of said content (via external players) is an issue.
17:38:39 <Garth> ... Can we point to more secure resources?
17:38:47 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:38:50 <liisamk> ack liisamk
17:39:07 <Garth> tzviya: Need to consider Dave's issue (in a box).
17:40:32 <liisamk> ack Avneesh
17:40:32 <Garth> ... A11Y is an issue; if you go outside of RS -- via link or external player -- big can of worms to open.  No longer controlling the UE and A11Y experience.
17:40:47 <George> q+
17:40:56 <tzviya> s/UE/UX
17:40:59 <Garth> Avneesh: 3rd party content -- gives away a loophole for A11Y of content.
17:41:37 <tzviya> +1 to Avneesh
17:41:49 <liisamk> ack George
17:41:50 <Garth> ... EPUB 3 WG -- maybe hit wall with Privacy and security review.  Download-able Zip, oh boy.
17:42:13 <Garth> George: EPUB size limitations?  Videos can get big.
17:42:50 <Garth> liisamk: Limits come up around 650 or 800 Megabytes.
17:43:09 <Garth> ivan: NBU network issues.
17:43:33 <Garth> George: Turtle speeds in Montana!
17:44:14 <Garth> ivan: Maybe the recommendation should be to steer clear of this issue.
17:44:39 <Ralph> Liisa: If I had a way to reference things outside the package, that would help
17:44:49 <Ralph> Garth: we could say that is supported
17:45:01 <Ralph> Liisa: immersive content would feel better if it was in an iframe
17:45:07 <Ralph> ... it would feel that you were immersed in it
17:45:19 <Ralph> Garth: for me, the a/v tag is immersive
17:45:26 <Garth> liisamk: Anything else?
17:45:40 <Garth> topic: Smart Agents
17:46:14 <Garth> liisamk: Should we contribute use-cases to W3C's upcoming workshop on Smart Agents?
17:46:31 <Garth> ... business needs.
17:46:59 <Karen> +1 Liisa on vacation :)
17:47:27 <Garth> tzviya: maybe just a few notes in github.
17:47:41 <George> q+
17:47:44 <Garth> ... not terribly formal.
17:47:48 <Ralph> <ralph> [+1; add to the thread on https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/221 ]
17:48:00 <Karen> q+
17:48:04 <Garth> ... Rights is an interesting topic too.
17:48:07 <liisamk> ack George
17:48:32 <Garth> George: Smart speakers read EPUBs -- using DAISY commands -- cool!
17:49:14 <Garth> tzviya: Folks in W3C are probably not really aware.
17:49:35 <tzviya> article about rights https://www.janefriedman.com/securing-audiobook-rights-the-rights-you-need-to-bring-your-audiobook-to-market/
17:49:36 <Garth> Avneesh: Not just EPUB.
17:49:38 <liisamk> ack Karen
17:50:17 <Garth> Karen: There are many related technologies and use cases in this area.
17:51:03 <Garth> ... Haven't really created the graphic or roadmap to express the broad spectrum or opportunity.
17:51:20 <George> q+
17:51:21 <Garth> s/ or / of /
17:51:29 <liisamk> ack George
17:51:50 <tzviya> q+
17:52:05 <Garth> George: Royalties for broadcast via smart speakers is an issue too.
17:52:17 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:52:30 <Garth> tzviya: Added link re audiobook rights (above).
17:53:24 <laurent_> laurent_ has joined #pbg
17:53:52 <Garth> ... Interesting APA work -- machine versus human narration.
17:54:46 <Garth> George: Pronunciation with reading text items is very important.
17:55:13 <Garth> Avneesh: First use-case was audiobooks -- TTS is not getting important too.
17:55:38 <Garth> ... There is six intelligent voice groups in the W3C now.
17:56:32 <Garth> liisamk: Folks should be encouraged to add to use-case for workshop on Smart Agents.  And George/Avneesh re Smart Speakers and A11Y.
17:56:46 <Garth> s/case/cases/
17:56:54 <George> q+
17:56:59 <liisamk> ack George
17:57:00 <Karen> +1 more educational information
17:58:08 <Garth> George: In Avneesh's task force -- extracting out EU requirements and comparing with EPUB A11Y and looking to identify gaps.
17:58:52 <tzviya> q+
17:59:10 <liisamk> ack tzviya
17:59:40 <Garth> tzviya: A11Y as part of DEI efforts -- a nice win.
18:00:15 <Garth> liisamk: Similar at PHR.
18:01:09 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/PHR/PRH
18:01:10 <Ralph> [Laurent arrives]
18:01:28 <Garth> s/week/meeting/
18:01:30 <Ralph> topic: TDM
18:01:53 <Ralph> Laurent: we had a meeting to try to align people around a11y
18:01:56 <Ralph> s/topic: TDM//
18:02:24 <Ralph> ... there will be new efforts to promote and communicate how to make a11y a reality on all the chain of the publishing industry
18:02:40 <Ralph> ... from publishers to distributors, libraries, web sites, and payment systems on web sites
18:03:02 <Ralph> ... a question was how to signal visually and easily and in a standard manner that something is accessible
18:03:15 <Ralph> ... this is converging with the W3C/DAISY initiative around UZ
18:03:18 <Ralph> s/UZ/UX
18:03:27 <Ralph> ... there is a combined effort in France to push this
18:04:48 <Ralph> topic: AOB
18:04:49 <Ralph> Liisa: the Publishing CG is starting to talk about use cases for non-linear fiction
18:05:10 <Ralph> ... also, we're planning another 2-session webinar in March
18:05:24 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
18:05:24 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Cristina, Ralph, Liisa, Wolfgang, ivan, Daihei, tzviya, Karen, Bill, George, Bill_Kasdorf, Garth, Avneesh
18:05:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:05:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/15-pbg-minutes.html Zakim
18:05:29 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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