14:35:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
14:35:43 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/12/11-social-irc
14:35:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #social
14:38:38 <rhiaro> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:46:59 <maymay> Hello all, I'll lurk but can't connect to audio
14:47:37 <rhiaro> hi maymay, we'll have live minutes in here so hopefully that's sufficient
14:48:59 <maymay> Yeah, I'm always impressed with how these meetings are run
14:52:19 <rhiaro> maymay and if you want to comment on something you can q up in here and type and someone will read it out
14:53:04 <maymay> OK thanks
14:53:52 <rhiaro> Zakim, this is Social Web Incubator CG
14:53:52 <Zakim> got it, rhiaro
14:53:56 <rhiaro> Meeting: Social Web Incubator Community Group Teleconference
14:54:12 <rhiaro> chair: cwebber2
15:03:00 <rhiaro> present+
15:03:03 <rhiaro> scribenick: rhiaro
15:04:08 <sl007> present+ Sebastian Lasse
15:04:18 <cwebber2> present+
15:04:58 <pukkamustard> present+
15:06:46 <cwebber2> present+ derek
15:06:54 <rhiaro> joost: I am with NLNet foundation, along with michiel
15:06:57 <cwebber2> present+ joost
15:07:04 <cwebber2> present+ christina
15:07:17 <rhiaro> ... we were discussing with sebastian and chris a week ago about how to discuss proper organisaed advocacy for efforts like activitypub
15:07:19 <cwebber2> present+ hellekin
15:07:28 <cwebber2> present+ rysiek
15:07:28 <rhiaro> ... in the context of eu political efforts for interop guidelines and legislation
15:07:41 <cwebber2> present+ michiel
15:07:46 <cwebber2> present+ derek
15:07:51 <rhiaro> ... some information has been announced as part of the digital services act which has politically vague statements on the roll of platforms in the digital market
15:07:55 <cwebber2> present+ gerben
15:08:03 <rhiaro> ... which can sometimes possibly result in actual guidelines or legislation
15:08:11 <rhiaro> ... the goal of this talk would be how to properly organise that
15:08:19 <rhiaro> ... and who will do what
15:08:43 <rhiaro> sl007: you said you are unsure about the roll of platforms - was also my concern until yesterday reuters were able to obtain a leak
15:09:13 <rhiaro> ... a platform is defined by the amount of numbers, a huge number so it will affect only a few platforms like the only the largest ones
15:09:18 <rhiaro> ... which do have a state of monopoly
15:09:29 <rhiaro> ... and then there is a short update of german netspolitik who analyse and talk to experts
15:09:52 <rhiaro> ... they are also saying that probably the most powerful competitive instrument of the planned digital markets act could include the possibility of imposing regulatins on platforms for the interop of their services
15:09:58 <rhiaro> ... that would have immense effects on social networks
15:10:16 <rhiaro> ... they asked about scientific exerpts in the eu and said the experts were overwhelmly positive and the commission has been considering obligations for a long time
15:10:41 <rhiaro> ... [??] and confirmed this with colleagues.. it says that experts agreed strongly to compulsory interoperability
15:10:53 <rhiaro> ... and then yesterday morning a post popped up on the twitter blog which is a community by..
15:11:17 <hellekin> hellekin has joined #social
15:11:22 <hellekin> present+
15:12:43 <rhiaro> Vittorio: ... there are good chances there will be someting on interop but we don't know how strong
15:12:52 <rhiaro> ... there is pushback based on the fact the eu should not have the powers to put these constraints onto the market
15:13:03 <rhiaro> ... the act seems to be based on harmonizing between member states [??] about competition
15:13:34 <rhiaro> ... it's not clear what is happening, everyone who has connections ith commissioners are trying to push .. the big platforms will start saying it should be as weak as possible and not too much regulation
15:13:55 <sl007> https://www.reuters.com/article/eu-tech-rules-idUSKBN28K28D?taid=5fd2693b2f44a80001678ce1
15:14:09 <sl007> [de] https://netzpolitik.org/2020/digitale-dienste-paket-was-wir-ueber-das-neue-plattformgesetz-der-eu-wissen/
15:15:44 <rhiaro> sl007: we want to speak about what tools we can use to demand, if we demand compulsory interoperability, because maybe that's something we should vote for as this CG.. we can say as the CG to the EU we've got a protocol recommended by w3c and we demand compulsory interop from you to make it a human right... then I don't know, something like this? And maybe an open letter?
15:16:13 <rhiaro> ... and we should all have the fediverse users to look up their faourite MPs/representatives in the monopolies, eg. on twitter and send them 'I want AP for all' and if you've got other ideas and how we can get into the process
15:16:27 <hellekin> q+
15:16:32 <rhiaro> ... what I did was to speak with four different MEPs about the situation and two fo them are very open minded and because they are very into the subject
15:16:45 <rhiaro> ... Patrick Brier of the german pirate party
15:16:47 <rhiaro> q+ rysiek
15:17:07 <rhiaro> ... he's also a judge, and Karen.. two more, one was a green MEP and one was from the ?? party
15:17:13 <rhiaro> ... we've got two big groups in the EU
15:17:17 <rhiaro> ... and I tried to raise awareness
15:18:11 <cwebber2> q?
15:18:16 <cwebber2> ack hellekin
15:18:27 <rhiaro> hellekin: what I understand you want to do sebastian is to create activitypub EU lobby?
15:18:29 <rhiaro> ... which is a good idea
15:18:38 <rhiaro> ... I would like to discuss the possibility of extending that to free software in general
15:18:41 <cwebber2> q+ to talk about activitypub specific lobby
15:18:53 <rhiaro> ... and I'd like yous ebastian to summairse a bit what you see with the digital single market and how we are positioned there
15:19:02 <cwebber2> ack rsyiek
15:19:03 <treora> treora has joined #social
15:19:06 <cwebber2> ack rysiek
15:19:24 <rhiaro> rysiek: a short remark on the idea of sending a lot of emailt o MEPs - when we were doing activism around the copyright directive
15:19:37 <rhiaro> ... I spoke with a lot of MEPs and they said this is something we have to be careful about
15:19:44 <michiel> michiel has joined #social
15:20:00 <cwebber2> rysiek: mass mailing doesn't work anymore
15:20:06 <cwebber2> rysiek: it's interpreted as spam
15:20:12 <cwebber2> sl007: not advocating mass mailing
15:20:14 <rhiaro> sl007: the fediverse is the power of humans and if we say people just look up your favourite MEP in twitter or facebook and try communication with them
15:20:18 <cwebber2> q?
15:20:18 <rhiaro> rysiek: thank you
15:20:22 <michiel> present+ Michiel Leenaars
15:20:23 <cwebber2> ack cwebber
15:20:23 <Zakim> cwebber, you wanted to talk about activitypub specific lobby
15:20:25 <rhiaro> q+ ian
15:20:31 <rhiaro> present+ ian
15:20:40 <rhiaro> cwebber2: not everyone was here for the last meeting - we had rough consensus on a few things
15:20:50 <rhiaro> present+ eesti
15:21:08 <rhiaro> ... one of them was that we wanted to advocate for a ineroperable protocol that has at least one free and open source software implementation but ideally more
15:21:29 <rhiaro> ... but one of the things we talked about was it would be better to give recommendations of examples rather than encoding in specific tech
15:21:38 <rhiaro> ... obviously I'm an AP advocate but if we had standardised in 2005 we'd have xmpp
15:21:49 <rhiaro> ... and tech sometimes changes, sometimes new needs appear, like e2e encryption that might not appear previously
15:21:59 <rhiaro> ... so the important thing is we push for an interoperable protocol but rather than a specific protocol
15:22:04 <rhiaro> ... but we can give strong examples of what to consider
15:22:17 <cwebber2> q?
15:22:21 <cwebber2> ack ian
15:22:21 <rhiaro> ... and the other thing that we had come up with in that set of things
15:22:43 <rhiaro> ian: I had one suggestion which is that people work with national campaigning/advocacy groups that are already very involved at national and eu levels
15:22:55 <rhiaro> ... off the top of my headin germany there's ccc, in the netherlands there's bits of freedom, there are a range
15:23:03 <rhiaro> ...t here's an umbrella group in brussels called edri
15:23:03 <maymay> q+
15:23:10 <rhiaro> ...r ather than individuals building links themselves
15:23:16 <rhiaro> ... these activism groups already have these links
15:23:23 <rhiaro> ... they also have the idea of when different actions will ahve the mosti mpact
15:23:41 <rhiaro> ... the commission is going to publish proposals next week, it will then go to the eu parliament and member states, there will be moments where activism will have the most impact
15:23:57 <rhiaro> ... when meps are considering amendments to the proposals so you can maximise the impact of your actin by working with people who are tracking what is happening in brussels or in the national governments
15:23:59 <cwebber2> q?
15:24:05 <cwebber2> ack maymay
15:24:43 <Derek_Caelin> Derek_Caelin has joined #social
15:24:54 <sl007> MEPs helping @echo_pbreyer@chaos.social / https://twitter.com/echo_pbreyer and https://twitter.com/karmel80
15:24:58 <Derek_Caelin> present+ (Derek Caelin)
15:25:19 <vb> vb has joined #social
15:25:23 <cwebber2> q?
15:25:27 <rysiek> rysiek has joined #social
15:25:38 <maymay> (just commenting on IRC) I like the idea to push for principles rather than a specific protocol, but also see the risk that the major players just roll their own "interop" APIs that don't fulfill anybodys needs and end up with X competing protocols
15:25:45 <rysiek> present+ (Michał "rysiek" Woźniak)
15:25:58 <cwebber2> q+ to talk about foo
15:26:01 <cwebber2> ack cwebber
15:26:01 <Zakim> cwebber, you wanted to talk about foo
15:26:10 <rhiaro> q+ ian
15:26:11 <vb> q+
15:26:12 <rhiaro> q+ eesti
15:26:34 <cwebber2> ack ian
15:26:39 <rhiaro> cwebber2: we have a few things being discussed - what should be advocated for and what should we advocate
15:26:51 <maymay> https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
15:26:55 <cwebber2> ack vc
15:26:59 <cwebber2> ack vb
15:27:14 <rhiaro> vb: nice to see people wanting to participate but lobbying in brussels is a complex thing
15:27:17 <Derek_Caelin> +1 to Ian and Vittorio! Let's join the groups that have already formed
15:27:27 <rhiaro> ... i've been doing this for years and just scratched the service. the only way we can do it is via people wh have been doing it for 20 years
15:27:29 <Cristina> Cristina has joined #social
15:27:44 <rhiaro> ... I would strongly recommend that people in this group want to participate, establish the brussels meeting points for the free software comunity
15:27:48 <rhiaro> ... we can provide pointers for people
15:27:53 <rhiaro> ... we know the free software community is really diverse
15:28:00 <rhiaro> ... you will find big free software companies there also
15:28:19 <rhiaro> ... ngos that are working on this, article19, eff, we should join forces and synchronise
15:28:24 <cwebber2> q?
15:28:29 <rhiaro> .. this is not about sending mass emails, i's about speaking with the right people at the right time
15:28:37 <sl007> q+
15:28:41 <rhiaro> ... the ball is in the hand of the commision, it's good to start talking with MEPs but they are not taking deciisions now
15:28:46 <rhiaro> ... we have to make sure the initial proposal is good
15:28:55 <rhiaro> ... the other thing you all could do is participate in consultaitons when they get out
15:28:59 <rhiaro> ... they regularly get put out
15:29:08 <rhiaro> ... my company openexchange we make dovecot
15:29:18 <rhiaro> ... we submitted a technical paper showing how interop can work in messaging and other people did the same
15:29:26 <rhiaro> ... at the same time the regulation will not deal with specific protocols
15:29:33 <rhiaro> ... it will take years to get the generic regulatin approved
15:29:43 <rhiaro> ... then an implementation phase, with an agency tasked with defining the protocols
15:29:48 <rhiaro> ... and deciding which companies meet the criteria
15:29:57 <cwebber2> q+ to discuss "which companies", and self-hosting
15:30:02 <rhiaro> ... but that will come.. it doesn't make sense now to pint out specific protocols, except that there are technical means to do it
15:30:11 <rhiaro> ... if platofrms say it is not possible we can say it's not true
15:30:27 <rhiaro> ... I was asking derek about smes in europe making products around fediverse. they are sensitive to economy and companies
15:30:44 <rhiaro> ... proposals coming from pirate party or FSF, they already know what they say, you have to convince the main parties
15:30:51 <Derek_Caelin> If the commission is focused on companies, I wonder if entities like Framasoft (peertube) should be part of this discussion?
15:31:08 <rhiaro> ... it's good to show there are companies that create jobs around open protocols and federated services
15:31:08 <rhiaro> ... this helps with the conversatives especially
15:31:08 <rhiaro> ... they are attentive to the economy
15:31:20 <Derek_Caelin> For better or for worse the Fediverse doesn't really follow a traditional business model
15:31:23 <rhiaro> ... that's the thing I would suggest
15:31:24 <hellekin> q+ on FOSDEM - OFFDEM this year
15:31:27 <rhiaro> ... some of you could join [??]
15:31:30 <cwebber2> ack eesti
15:32:08 <rhiaro> eesti: we talked about existing ngos active in digital rights, I never thougth we don't make connections to them
15:32:22 <rhiaro> ... I'm active at ?? which is a member of edri(?) and also active in CCC
15:32:36 <rhiaro> ... they never will focus on activitypub or the fediverse they already have this topics of interoperability as a side note and some of their papers
15:32:56 <rhiaro> ... some of their policy papers but they  never will have.. not enough to just engage with them, we also have to do things on our own
15:33:47 <rhiaro> cwebber2: somethign we didn't do - these meetings are supposed to only be happenign with members of the social CG.. we pulled in a bunch of people and now we've got people here who are not officially in the social CG
15:33:51 <rhiaro> ... here is how you can join
15:33:57 <cwebber2> https://www.w3.org/community/wp-login.php?redirect_to=%2Fcommunity%2Fsocialcg%2Fjoin
15:33:59 <rhiaro> ... here is a URL ^
15:34:31 <rhiaro> ... I request that you join, the reason is that this protects us from patent issues. it's less risky today because we're talking about policy, but for technical conversations it's important
15:34:33 <Derek_Caelin> this page links to a login page
15:34:34 <rhiaro> ... it's a straightforward process
15:34:40 <cwebber2> q?
15:34:43 <cwebber2> ack sl
15:35:14 <rhiaro> sl007: I wanted to reply to vittorio.. what eesti said, if we approach businesses and ngos and interop is a sidenote, is my impression as well
15:35:28 <rhiaro> ... I've tried to invite edri(?) to 12 activitypub meetings/conferences and also political discussions
15:35:44 <rhiaro> ... that really gave me the impression that they don't carea bout interoperability
15:35:49 <rhiaro> ... privacy is their concern, which is fine
15:35:56 <cwebber2> q?
15:36:00 <joostagterhoek> joostagterhoek has joined #social
15:36:00 <rhiaro> ... and I would like to raise awareness that we are all volunteers and we can't probably do it in a very professional way
15:36:09 <rhiaro> ... about reaching the different parties, that's what I tried to do
15:36:16 <rhiaro> ... there were 5 politicians of 5 different parties
15:36:26 <rhiaro> ... I did not approach the conservatives yet
15:36:35 <cwebber2> q?
15:36:38 <rhiaro> ... if we all somehow approach people we somehow know or friends know I'm sure this can work
15:37:00 <rhiaro> ... the cheif of internet ofthe council of europe dr sylvia gruntmann flew to dortmand to an indiewebcamp just ot learn about open protocols
15:37:11 <rhiaro> ... there are some persons who do care
15:37:13 <rhiaro> ... about the open letter, should we write a draft?
15:37:18 <hellekin> +1
15:37:20 <rhiaro> ... I can do it with whoever wants
15:37:24 <cwebber2> ack cwebber
15:37:24 <Zakim> cwebber, you wanted to discuss "which companies", and self-hosting
15:37:26 <joostagterhoek> +1
15:38:00 <rhiaro> cwebber2: the bit about regulators looking at companies... they will start focussing on which companies are qualified to do these things.. there was an ack that part of the prolem is that self hosters and community run instances tend to fly under the radar
15:38:18 <rhiaro> ... I think the main thing we really want to be careful about in some of this legislation is that most legislation assumes that the only way to do things is with big players
15:38:44 <rhiaro> ... big players, the current structure of twitter and so on are the only way that many people can imagine because they ahven't been exposed to anything else
15:38:53 <rhiaro> ... the other thing is not accidentally creating a regulatory moat
15:39:02 <rhiaro> ... where you've created regulations that only large players can participate in
15:39:25 <rhiaro> ... that would be very ironic because it might actualy cut out some of the most viable paths to accomplishing what the regulation actually wants t do
15:39:31 <cwebber2> q?
15:39:34 <cwebber2> ack hellekin
15:39:34 <Zakim> hellekin, you wanted to comment on FOSDEM - OFFDEM this year
15:39:44 <rhiaro> ... [??] community is just as important or mayb eeven more imporatn
15:40:11 <rhiaro> hellekin: the eu asked amazon, facebook and google and microsoft to figure out a law for content and they came up with this time based restriction
15:40:21 <rhiaro> ... if you don't ut out the content within one hour you can be liable
15:40:25 <rhiaro> ... which is not possible for small players
15:40:37 <rhiaro> ... had they asked for the community we would have come up with a number of use based regulation
15:40:42 <rhiaro> s/use/views
15:41:07 <rhiaro> ... I wanted to notify vittorio that as we did last year during fosdem we will do offdem
15:41:08 <cwebber2> q+ to try to talk about actionable paths: a set of goals and a set of organization-paths
15:41:16 <rhiaro> ... last year we had parallel small events where the AP community gathered as well
15:41:24 <rhiaro> ... we will repeat the event this year
15:41:36 <rhiaro> ... if you want to come to brussels youc an
15:41:44 <rhiaro> ... and since fossdemw ill not be happening physically that means we're not tied to specific place close to the university
15:41:48 <rhiaro> ... we already have a huge place
15:41:52 <maymay> In case not everyone is aware, IMO the risk is that we end up with something like https://datatransferproject.dev/
15:41:55 <rhiaro> ... offdem will happen, I'll keep youp osted
15:41:55 <cwebber2> q?
15:41:58 <cwebber2> ack cwebber
15:41:58 <Zakim> cwebber, you wanted to try to talk about actionable paths: a set of goals and a set of organization-paths
15:42:08 <rhiaro> cwebber2: we only have 20 mins left
15:42:16 <rhiaro> ... this is a set of topics that everyone could talk about all day
15:42:24 <rhiaro> ... but we want to try to move to actions
15:42:41 <rhiaro> ... I percieve two things that I'd like to get out of this meeting
15:42:41 <rhiaro> ... one is where and under what structures are we organising
15:42:45 <maymay> (so it will be important to talk about the difference between interop/federation vs just data portability)
15:42:48 <rhiaro> ... two: what are we organising to do
15:42:49 <rhiaro> ... I suspect 2 is easier to fill than 1
15:42:51 <rhiaro> ... so I want to focus on 1
15:43:26 <rhiaro> ... I would like everyone who has a path they'd like to talk about to q up just to mention that
15:43:33 <hellekin> q+ on SocialHub and PUBLIC
15:43:43 <rhiaro> ian: work with organisations as vittorio said that know how politics in brussels work
15:43:44 <sl007> q+ who can research policy, who can do PR, who speaks to whom …
15:43:46 <rhiaro> ... it is very complicated
15:43:54 <rhiaro> ... it's really hard to know who are the right people to talk to at which point in the process to achieve what
15:44:00 <rhiaro> ... you're unlikely to achieve much if you don't do that
15:44:01 <treora> q+
15:44:11 <cwebber2> ack hellekin
15:44:11 <Zakim> hellekin, you wanted to comment on SocialHub and PUBLIC
15:44:22 <hellekin> https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks https://love.public.cat/
15:44:26 <michiel> The wrong kind of advocacy actually works antagonistically, it can also do damage
15:44:36 <rhiaro> hellekin: to mention that we've been orgnansing on the social web and there's also something calld public(?) that's a libre ifrastructure consortium
15:44:42 <rhiaro> ... which is about european advoacy for free software
15:44:44 <cwebber2> michiel: you are right, mind queuing yoursel to say that?
15:44:52 <rhiaro> ... a number of people are, 43, following this, but nothing really happened so far
15:44:54 <rhiaro> ... it's open
15:44:59 <cwebber2> I think I'll allow that to be sandwiched in-between, as moderator ;)
15:45:01 <michiel> I'll queue at the end
15:45:04 <rhiaro> ... Links ^
15:45:06 <cwebber2> q?
15:45:29 <hellekin> see also https://ps.zoethical.org/g/Migrators
15:45:53 <rhiaro> sl007: my question is .. the structure in the W3C, since we are a CG within W3C we basically have no official voice. Is there any process who is discussing policy issues like this?
15:46:01 <rhiaro> ... the other question is who could do what?
15:46:10 <rhiaro> ... researching policies or public relations, who to speak to whom
15:46:22 <rhiaro> ... also what vittorio and others, if we organise with businesses, who could speak with what business
15:46:34 <rhiaro> cwebber2: I don't have an answer.. I suspect the person who does best is amy
15:47:13 <cwebber2> rhiaro: unfortunately I don't really have an answer either... there's often policy discussion amongst AC reps, but there's not a lot of actions that come from that because the W3C focuses on technical specs
15:47:20 <michiel> q?
15:47:25 <cwebber2> ack treora
15:47:38 <michiel> q+
15:47:57 <rhiaro> treora: I agreed and appreciate what vittoria and ian said, to talk to politicians about how brussels work. I moved to brussels 2 years ago and still don't know
15:48:31 <rhiaro> ... trying to get people who are on the fediverse, getting themt o know aout the political things that are going on
15:48:51 <rhiaro> ... sometimes when I go to events in brussels, people like ?? ... tells me you can tell me it's important but we don't see any requests about it from the population
15:49:01 <rhiaro> ... maybe some people care but as long as there's no movement that demands these things it's hard to defend doing this
15:49:05 <cwebber2> q?
15:49:15 <rhiaro> ... besides talking to politicians it's good if there's more people talking about it on all social media
15:49:23 <rhiaro> ... anything that makes more people care is contributing to the cause
15:49:35 <cwebber2> ack michiel
15:49:39 <hellekin> q?
15:49:49 <rhiaro> michiel: two things.. to put in a path
15:50:13 <rhiaro> ... the path is not to allow the mainstream social corporate media to remain in place, but to create an even playing field by having them removed because they're under legal attack and also under cnsiderabe ethical issues
15:50:24 <rhiaro> ... to action from having all of these removed from public authority
15:50:30 <hellekin> +1
15:50:45 <cwebber2> that's an interesting suggestion
15:50:59 <rhiaro> ... to have eu removed from facebook and from twitter and no longer endorsing it and then to renew the grounds and start back filling it up with the obvious candidate to take that roll is to have something with a w3c standard behind it
15:51:07 <cwebber2> forcing the government to dogfood a decentralized approach
15:51:09 <rhiaro> ... [??] too single minded in sending messages
15:51:12 <cwebber2> though it could possibly backfire in one way
15:51:16 <cwebber2> q?
15:51:18 <cwebber2> q+
15:51:22 <rhiaro> ... people who feel attacked and are annoyed and stop listening to other people because people get associated with those people
15:51:43 <cwebber2> ack cwebber
15:51:43 <rhiaro> ... I'd be careful with just randomly pushing people and trying to [???]
15:52:16 <rhiaro> cwebber2: having governments eat their own dogfood oftheir regulation by withdarwing from centralised platforms
15:52:20 <rhiaro> ... could be a step in the right direction
15:52:28 <rhiaro> ... but could be wrong by us ecoming the centralized platform..
15:52:29 <cwebber2> q?
15:52:46 <rhiaro> ... we'v ementioned a number of different paths here and a few different organising institutions
15:53:14 <rhiaro> ... I thought that joost has mentioned something... we do need to find a place.. we've got a number of directions
15:53:21 <rhiaro> ... how should this group of peoplecontinue to organise
15:53:27 <rhiaro> ... the socialcg was originally a pace for technical discussions
15:53:32 <rhiaro> ... I don't believe tech and policy are separate
15:53:44 <rhiaro> ... but I'm not sure whether or not this needs to be spun out into a subgroup
15:54:05 <joostagterhoek> q+
15:54:07 <rhiaro> ... it probably is helpful to get a poll, are people interested in continued conversations?
15:54:07 <rhiaro> ... where do people want to organise followup *action*?
15:54:21 <cwebber2> ack joostagterhoek
15:54:33 <rhiaro> joostagterhoek: these meetings are very insightful to get everyone's perspective
15:54:52 <rhiaro> ... which is useful but to set specific goals or tasks of how to approach such a topic in an organised way in a collaborative space
15:54:57 <hellekin> 0 -- We should bring this to another organization since it's not specifically about ActivityPub development.
15:54:59 <rhiaro> ... could be a good way to keep in touch with what everyone is doing
15:55:06 <rhiaro> ... and a log of what was being discussed
15:55:31 <cwebber2> q?
15:55:33 <rhiaro> ... take that discussion and put it into tasks anda ssign responsibility for each task
15:55:51 <michiel> Internet Society might be interested
15:55:56 <sl007> q+
15:56:00 <rhiaro> cwebber2: creatinga  task list and [??]
15:56:09 <rhiaro> ... who monitors the task list
15:56:22 <cwebber2> q?
15:56:24 <rhiaro> ... taking on that role could be an intense hobby or a full time job..
15:56:25 <cwebber2> ack sl
15:57:21 <rhiaro> ... michiel suggested internet society I dont know much about them
15:57:22 <vb> q+
15:57:36 <rhiaro> sl007: I would be interested in ian brown's perspective on what would be the perfect place to organise this
15:57:42 <cwebber2> ack vb
15:57:56 <rhiaro> vb: to cmment, the internet society is already interested int he topic, but still working out a position
15:58:08 <michiel> Internet Society has European chapters
15:58:15 <rhiaro> ... they were not completely in favour of this, as not as much as the european people, but now it's becoming more favourable, but very heavily influenced by american oranisation members
15:58:32 <rhiaro> ... this topic has been pushed by european members
15:58:33 <rhiaro> ... agree this is very time consuming
15:58:37 <rhiaro> ... there are very few paid policy peple in european free software community
15:58:58 <rhiaro> ... we need if there are some organisations to stay in the loop, and have orgs as signature of documents to send to the european commission
15:59:15 <rhiaro> ... we've been doing this
15:59:15 <rhiaro> ... a way to stay in the loop
15:59:15 <rhiaro> ... if people have time there are lists to join
15:59:28 <treora> regarding “we’ve been doing this”, the most recent letter: https://www.article19.org/resources/open-letter-eu-commissioners-interoperability/
15:59:31 <rhiaro> ... the final option is to form an informal group or policy group pro openness, very informal, and sign stuff with that name
15:59:33 <hellekin> Migrators group was created just for that
15:59:40 <Loqi__> EU: Open letter EU Commissioners on interoperability requirements
16:00:04 <rhiaro> cwebber2: the group which succeeds here would have to be one that would be.. who is stepping up to organise the next few meetings out from this one?
16:00:16 <rhiaro> ian: thinking about timing
16:00:28 <rhiaro> ... vittorio earlier was right to say the key moments here when it comes to activitypub may be several years in th efuture
16:00:45 <rhiaro> ... they certainly will be after next year, as the eu parliament starts debating the proposals the commision is supposed to publish next week
16:00:57 <rhiaro> ... it's extraordinarily unlikely that the legislation itself will point at specific technical standards
16:01:03 <rhiaro> ... legislation only changes na  decade scale
16:01:21 <rhiaro> ... what is most likely is the legislation will at a very high level say these large companeis must support or enable interoperability, and leave it at that
16:01:26 <rhiaro> ... and leave it up to national regulators
16:01:37 <rhiaro> ... then will those competition authrities take legal action against them?
16:01:43 <rhiaro> ... as we're seeing right now in the US for different reasons..
16:01:56 <rhiaro> ... if it goes further than that it might say here's a process by which the european commission can identify standards
16:01:59 <rhiaro> ... and AP might be one of those
16:02:19 <rhiaro> ... I've written two reports on this topic, which I said there - EU standards have tended to come out of very government focussed standard bodies
16:02:26 <rhiaro> ... here AP and AS2 would be an obvious place for government authorities to point at
16:02:33 <rhiaro> ... that probably would not happen for several years from now, this is a long game
16:02:51 <rhiaro> ... in terms of where people could coordinate, I'm sure that me and vitorrio and gerben would be happy to keep anyone on this group interested up to date on what is happening month by month
16:03:04 <Derek_Caelin> Yes please!
16:03:07 <rhiaro> ... and to thinka bout ways when specific issues are coming up like signing letters or speaking at meetings to persuade MEPs to look at the issue next year we could coordinate again
16:03:10 <cwebber2> q?
16:03:14 <rhiaro> cwebber2: we are over time
16:03:30 <rhiaro> ... we have two things that need to happen right now
16:03:47 <rhiaro> ... everyone here has a pretty good idea of what ought to be happening..
16:03:59 <rhiaro> ... in the meanwhile nobody has given an alternative place to coordinate so the socialcg is probably sitll the bes tplace
16:04:02 <hellekin> q+ on following up with email on public.cat
16:04:08 <rhiaro> ... my challenge is somebody come up with a better place at the next socialcg
16:04:13 <rhiaro> ... I'd like it to come from someone who is already doing the work
16:04:15 <rhiaro> ... that is my request
16:04:33 <rhiaro> ... who is alrady doing the work who says we are aware of the socialcg and pull in those people so we can have a community oriented intpu into the proceses that are happening
16:04:39 <rhiaro> ... that's my challenge to you all
16:04:49 <rhiaro> ... meanwhile we need to figure out when we're going to meet next
16:04:55 <hellekin> +1
16:04:58 <joostagterhoek> +1
16:05:00 <cwebber2> +1
16:05:00 <rhiaro> ... +1 or -1 to say whether or not you think we need to have af ollowup meeting
16:05:01 <Derek_Caelin> +1
16:05:02 <sl007> +1
16:05:04 <rhiaro> ... especially about where to organise our work
16:05:08 <michiel> +1
16:05:11 <hellekin> q?
16:05:14 <rysiek> +1
16:05:18 <cwebber2> ack hellekin
16:05:18 <Zakim> hellekin, you wanted to comment on following up with email on public.cat
16:05:31 <Cristina> +1
16:05:33 <rhiaro> hellekin: I'm ready to open a group specificaly with the people who are here so we can follow up organisation by email
16:05:41 <rhiaro> ... if you like this idea send me your email via any way you can think of
16:05:46 <rhiaro> ... I put mine here
16:05:47 <hellekin> how@zoethical.com
16:06:03 <rhiaro> cwebber2: we'll figure out the next time on socialhub
16:06:05 <michiel> Thanks!
16:06:07 <rhiaro> ... thanks everyone!
16:06:09 <joostagterhoek> Thanks Amy!
16:06:19 <rysiek> thanks, Amy!
16:06:24 <Cristina> thanks, Amy!
16:09:43 <michiel> I would suggest changing the email address to to something that is spam harvesting proof
16:10:05 <joostagterhoek> Sylvia Gruntmann = Silvia Grundmann
16:10:17 <rhiaro> thanks joostagterhoek
16:10:32 <rhiaro> s/Sylvia Gruntmann/Silvia Grundmann
16:11:11 <sl007> thanks rhiaro thanks joostagterhoek
16:11:19 <sl007> Forum https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks
16:13:25 <sl007> Link to the Paper of Ian Brown https://www.openforumeurope.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Ian_Brown_Interoperability_for_competition_regulation.pdf
16:13:38 <rhiaro> present+ (Michiel Leenaars)
16:13:53 <rhiaro> present+ (Vittorio Bertola)
16:13:53 <rhiaro> present+ (Cristina DeLisle)
16:14:06 <rhiaro> present+ (Derek Caelin)
16:14:44 <rhiaro> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:14:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/11-social-minutes.html rhiaro
16:14:54 <rhiaro> Zakim, end meeting
16:14:54 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been rhiaro, Sebastian, Lasse, cwebber, pukkamustard, derek, joost, christina, hellekin, rysiek, michiel, gerben, Leenaars, ian, eesti, (Derek,
16:14:57 <Zakim> ... Caelin), (Michał, "rysiek", Woźniak), (Michiel, Leenaars), (Vittorio, Bertola), (Cristina, DeLisle)
16:14:57 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:14:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/11-social-minutes.html Zakim
16:14:59 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, rhiaro; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:15:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #social
16:15:12 <rhiaro> RRSAgent, make minutes public
16:15:12 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', rhiaro.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:15:18 <rhiaro> Zakim, make minutes public
16:15:22 <rhiaro> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:16:10 <treora> Wow, bots talking to each other? The future arrived. Find shelter.
16:18:47 <rhiaro> treora: the only reason RRSAgent and Zakim haven't taken over the world is because they have better things to do
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16:45:13 <unnotchslayer> haha
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