15:54:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:54:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/12/11-pbgsc-irc
15:54:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:54:06 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:54:22 <Ralph> chair: Ralph
15:54:25 <Ralph> regrets: Tzviya
15:54:37 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2020Dec/0001.html
15:55:16 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/11/13-pbgsc-minutes.html previous 13-Nov
15:55:43 <Ralph> agenda+ EPUBCheck milestones
15:55:49 <Ralph> agenda+ Roundtable
15:55:57 <Ralph> agenda+ Meeting cadence for 2021
15:56:03 <Ralph> agenda+ AOB
15:57:41 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
15:57:59 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pbgsc
15:58:52 <Ralph> present+ Daihei, Bill, Avneesh, Dave, Ralph
16:00:49 <wendyreid> present+
16:00:57 <Ralph> present+ George
16:01:01 <dauwhe> scribe+ dauwhe
16:01:40 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
16:01:46 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
16:01:53 <George> present+
16:01:54 <liisamk> present+
16:02:02 <Ralph> zakim, next item
16:02:02 <Zakim> agendum 1. "EPUBCheck milestones" taken up [from Ralph]
16:02:07 <dauwhe> Ralph: let's get started
16:02:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:02:22 <Ralph> present+ Cristina
16:02:24 <dauwhe> ... funding messages have gone out
16:02:40 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I want to report where they went
16:02:49 <dauwhe> ... BISG newsletter
16:03:03 <dauwhe> ... it will be mentioned in Editeur newsletter
16:03:08 <dauwhe> ... Inclusive Publishing
16:03:18 <dauwhe> ... "French and Euro organizations"
16:03:45 <dauwhe> Ralph: do we need to talk about near-term milestone issues wrt DAISY?
16:03:56 <dauwhe> George: what do you mean?
16:04:01 <Avneesh> q+
16:04:06 <dauwhe> Ralph: the funding for the remainder of this project contract
16:04:21 <dauwhe> Avneesh: from epubcheck management call
16:04:30 <dauwhe> ... website will be launched before Xmas
16:04:34 <dauwhe> ... not sure about URL issue
16:04:53 <dauwhe> ... the next milestone is API at end of January
16:05:03 <dauwhe> ... there will two releases, one on main track
16:05:17 <dauwhe> ... media overlays, tests, which don't change public api
16:05:24 <dauwhe> ... then a release with new API
16:05:35 <ivan> q+
16:05:36 <dauwhe> ... first release will be production reaady
16:05:54 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #pbgsc
16:06:01 <dauwhe> ... the 2nd release will require feedback and config, especially if integrating via JAVA or command line
16:06:22 <dauwhe> ... after the website launch, I will send a progress report for epubcheck to steerco
16:06:29 <zhengxu> present+
16:06:34 <dauwhe> ... the next payment for december is alrealdy in the bank
16:06:36 <ivan> present+
16:06:47 <dauwhe> ... but are short for the feb/march payment
16:06:51 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to comment on URI for epubcheck web site
16:07:22 <dauwhe> Ralph: there's been some email discussion about a w3.org uri for this
16:07:33 <dauwhe> ... I need to follow up on that thread
16:08:14 <dauwhe> ivan: it's related to the url discussion
16:08:32 <dauwhe> ... what you mean by api is that you download the package and can add to my own java application
16:08:42 <dauwhe> ... but does not mean we have ready to run online validator
16:08:45 <dauwhe> Avneesh: correct
16:09:00 <dauwhe> ... it's a kind of interface, it's not a web api. It's an SDK api.
16:09:08 <dauwhe> ivan: is it a big step to make web based validator
16:09:20 <dauwhe> Avneesh: that's a different project which only uses epubcheck in back end
16:09:39 <Garth> Garth has joined #pbgsc
16:09:42 <dauwhe> ... there's more code to link web stuff with epubcheck commands
16:09:55 <Ralph> present+ Garth
16:10:29 <dauwhe> ivan: there's a url on the idpf website which uses the latest epubcheck?
16:10:36 <dauwhe> Avneesh: it uses 4.2
16:10:45 <dauwhe> ivan: it uses epub 3.2 checker
16:10:55 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #pbgsc
16:11:20 <Ralph> [ http://validator.idpf.org/ is using the 3.2 checker ]
16:11:20 <dauwhe> ... we thought we were going to provide a w3c url for the online validation service... which is still something we want.
16:11:45 <dauwhe> (I'm not going to try to comprehensively minute a misunderstanding)
16:12:18 <zhengxu> q+
16:12:24 <Daihei> Daihei has joined #pbgsc
16:12:41 <dauwhe> zhengxu: I was thinking about online epubcheck
16:12:42 <Daihei> present+
16:12:51 <dauwhe> ... i'm writing typescript to make it work online
16:12:57 <dauwhe> ... can I collaborate wiht people?
16:13:05 <dauwhe> s/wiht/with/
16:13:09 <dauwhe> ... I'll make it public soon
16:13:16 <dauwhe> Ralph: sounds like a CG task force?
16:13:45 <dauwhe> ... bill has to leave in 15min
16:13:51 <Ralph> zakim, take up item 3
16:13:52 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Meeting cadence for 2021" taken up [from Ralph]
16:14:26 <dauwhe> Ralph: the suggestion is that our biweekly meetings... we may not need that. Change to monthly, but keep an option for a second meeting in some months
16:14:37 <dauwhe> ... I picked the 2nd Friday of the month
16:14:56 <liisamk> +1 to proposal on revised meetings
16:15:02 <Daihei> +1
16:15:04 <zhengxu> +1
16:15:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:15:05 <wendyreid> +1
16:15:10 <dauwhe> +1
16:15:33 <ivan> +1
16:15:35 <liisamk> q+
16:15:36 <dauwhe> ... how much notice would y'all need for a 2nd meeting in a month?
16:15:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:15:40 <George> +1
16:15:42 <dauwhe> ... 24hr is too little
16:15:47 <dauwhe> ... do you need a week's notice?
16:15:56 <dauwhe> ... do we need to decide by the first Monday?
16:16:03 <dauwhe> liisamk: a week's notice is fine
16:16:03 <wendyreid> +1 to a week
16:16:23 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: no later than a week in advance
16:16:42 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: I might put in a placeholder as a cautionary note
16:17:42 <dauwhe> Ralph: I'll schedule and generate invitations for the 2nd friday
16:17:50 <Ralph> zakim, next item
16:17:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "EPUBCheck milestones" taken up [from Ralph]
16:17:58 <Ralph> zakim, close this item
16:17:58 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
16:17:59 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:17:59 <Zakim> 2. Roundtable [from Ralph]
16:18:06 <Ralph> zakim, next item
16:18:06 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Roundtable" taken up [from Ralph]
16:18:17 <dauwhe> Ralph: this is an opportunity to share anything that concerns you
16:18:27 <dauwhe> ... what assistance do you need from your colleagues
16:18:32 <dauwhe> ... upcoming milestones...
16:18:36 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the call?
16:18:36 <Zakim> Present: Daihei, Bill, Avneesh, Dave, Ralph, wendyreid, George, liisamk, Cristina, zhengxu, ivan, Garth
16:19:52 <Ralph> scribe+
16:20:02 <Ralph> Dave: two current issues in the EPUB 3 WG
16:20:20 <Ralph> ... I'm still trying to get answers from Hachette Legal in France
16:20:45 <Ralph> ... we still need a Testing Lead for the WG
16:21:17 <Ralph> ... this will be a large and complicated job
16:21:37 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:22:08 <Ralph> ... the WG is trying to address some old issues; one was about iframes that reference Youtube videos
16:22:14 <Ralph> ... remote resources that are called from iframes
16:22:28 <Ralph> ... it might be useful to get more sense from the business group on how much of a need this is
16:22:37 <Ralph> ... there are lots of different ways of getting videos in EPUB
16:22:47 <Ralph> ... are people frustrated or limited by the current situation?
16:22:54 <Ralph> ... we don't know how important this use case is
16:23:00 <George> q+
16:23:14 <Ralph> ... it opens a massive can of worms about security
16:23:29 <Garth> q?
16:23:43 <dauwhe> Bill_Kasdorf: that might be a candidate for fundraising from the BG
16:23:59 <dauwhe> q+
16:24:39 <dauwhe> George: on one of our calls the other day, I brought up the issue of video
16:24:53 <dauwhe> ... one of the publishers said the biggest problem was file size
16:25:17 <dauwhe> ... we didn't think it was an issue for a11y because of a lack of implementation of video
16:25:29 <dauwhe> ... but if it was a reality we'd need to test on a11y issues
16:25:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> s/that/Testing Lead/
16:25:45 <dauwhe> ... on read 2.0 I do see questions about why digital books don't have media content
16:25:45 <Garth> q?
16:25:56 <dauwhe> ... ebooks are not keeping with modern technology
16:25:59 <Garth> q+
16:26:29 <liisamk> q+
16:26:38 <Ralph> Dave: we've tried to answer the read20 questions and no one in my part of the publishing world is interested
16:26:51 <Ralph> ... on fundraising for a testing lead; we've talked about this before
16:26:57 <Ralph> ... I feel it would be extremely difficult
16:27:06 <Ralph> ... EPUBcheck is something everyone uses and depends on
16:27:47 <Ralph> ... but to fund someone to work on a [spec test suite] that is so distant from day-to-day workflow is difficult
16:28:01 <dauwhe> Garth: re: video
16:28:14 <dauwhe> ... we are partially down the path with external video
16:28:20 <dauwhe> ... via the video tag
16:28:28 <dauwhe> ... I think we don't know how far we are broken
16:28:47 <dauwhe> ... woohoo to WEndy on getting through multiple renditions last night
16:28:58 <dauwhe> ... and [name redacted]'s head didn't explode
16:29:12 <dauwhe> wendyreid: dave gave all the updates
16:29:22 <dauwhe> ... we talked about video last night, we need testing support
16:29:32 <dauwhe> ... I don't think fundraising for testing will work
16:29:41 <dauwhe> ... and we'll need more money for epubcheck for 3.3
16:29:48 <dauwhe> ... but we do need support
16:29:54 <dauwhe> ... we have volunteers willing to help
16:30:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> for the record I was thinking more along the lines of a grant rather than individual contributions. Just a thought.
16:30:03 <Garth> s/and [name redacted]'s head didn't explode/and sequent traffic on github indicated concurrence/
16:30:06 <dauwhe> ... we need a wrangler who also has technical know-how
16:30:21 <dauwhe> ... and even if they have only one of those skills, we can work around that
16:30:34 <dauwhe> ... wrangler and/OR techie
16:30:45 <dauwhe> ... what we really need is time and enthusiasm
16:31:02 <dauwhe> ... one more meeting this year, then dive back in in January
16:31:10 <dauwhe> Ralph: resource to lead testing efforts is critical
16:31:40 <dauwhe> George: question about wrangling vs tech. Just nag people? Remind people of due dates? Sets up schedule?
16:31:53 <dauwhe> ... tracking tests? Is it a project manager
16:32:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> sorry I have to leave but it's a meeting I can't skip. I'll read the minutes
16:32:05 <dauwhe> wendyreid: it's partly project management and understanding the big picture
16:32:24 <dauwhe> ... keeping an eye on things, report back to the group
16:33:08 <dauwhe> George: the only other thing I would add... if there is interest in Video that's not in the mainstream of publishing but in education content or OER content, that might be something good to nurture in the CG
16:33:20 <dauwhe> Ralph: incubation is a good role for the CG
16:33:30 <dauwhe> ... but there is a specific question about the current state of the spec
16:33:37 <dauwhe> ... good to raise in BG
16:33:49 <dauwhe> liisamk: we're happy to take that up in the BG
16:34:11 <dauwhe> ... we need to be mindful of where things have gone this year
16:34:17 <dauwhe> ... but everyone learned video this year
16:34:28 <dauwhe> ... they're gonna want to do it in books
16:34:50 <dauwhe> ... but there's concern about security--there's a bug allowing video to be easily downloaded
16:35:06 <dauwhe> ... we're talking about TDM stuff in the americas call
16:35:30 <dauwhe> ... and what it means for the business, and what the opportunities are
16:35:57 <dauwhe> Cristina: I'm not sure if it's a wide issue on Video; I'd like to ask some publishers
16:36:09 <dauwhe> ... it's used in education some, but maybe more in websites than in EPUB, AFAIK
16:36:12 <dauwhe> ... I will ask
16:36:20 <dauwhe> ... for sure not trade in Italy
16:36:32 <dauwhe> ... don't remember if it's in the survey?
16:37:30 <dauwhe> zhengxu: we have meeting next week
16:37:36 <dauwhe> ... and some issues in github in our repo
16:37:44 <dauwhe> ... more related to epub spec, I think
16:37:59 <dauwhe> ... we'll have to move to the epub-spec repo
16:38:15 <dauwhe> ivan: one thing that wendy and dave didn't report
16:38:55 <dauwhe> ... I have submitted the request for the FPWD of EPUB 3.3, two REC-track docs and a separate request to publish the overview and MR doc as WG notes
16:39:09 <dauwhe> ... Matt is on a road trip; we'll publish in January
16:39:31 <dauwhe> ... the main difference is editorial
16:39:34 <George> q+
16:39:45 <dauwhe> ... the RS-specific things are in a new doc
16:39:55 <dauwhe> ... Multiple renditions is separated into a note
16:40:21 <dauwhe> ... but everything else is in a big core spec, so you don't have to remember that packages are in publications ;)
16:40:28 <dauwhe> ... there are some minor things
16:40:46 <dauwhe> ... webp and opus
16:41:06 <dauwhe> ... in january we'll talk about whether we can use HTML in EPUB
16:41:50 <dauwhe> ... because this is the first w3c version, we should make some noise
16:41:54 <dauwhe> q+ to comment on this
16:42:17 <dauwhe> Ralph: w3c's practice is not to do press releases
16:42:18 <Zakim> dauwhe, you wanted to comment on this
16:42:37 <Ralph> s/releases/releases on first public working drafts, but blog posts are in order
16:42:57 <Ralph> Dave: I prefer the WG chairs handle the communications around this, in conjunction with others
16:43:07 <Ralph> ... we will want to be careful about how this is messaged
16:43:12 <Ralph> ... not over-state the case
16:43:29 <Avneesh> +1 not to verstate the case
16:44:31 <dauwhe> Garth: there is an IDPF board meeting on Monday
16:44:37 <dauwhe> ... for legal updates
16:44:46 <dauwhe> ... we'll have to circle back with W3M
16:45:05 <dauwhe> ... I wanted to ask Ivan about publication date of FPWD
16:45:14 <dauwhe> ... as it has relevance to copyright issues and the litigation
16:45:24 <dauwhe> ivan: before Jan 15th
16:45:35 <dauwhe> ... we can't do it in December
16:46:04 <dauwhe> Garth: lastly, maybe into next year we could kick off discussions with the BG proper about how we can push adoption of audiobooks
16:46:18 <dauwhe> ... we build things and they don't come
16:46:37 <dauwhe> ... and we don't want audiobooks to end up like multiple renditions, etc etc etc
16:46:37 <wendyreid> +100000
16:46:52 <dauwhe> George: Math activities with the WG probably moving forward in 2021
16:47:03 <dauwhe> ... we see MathML implementation in Chrome
16:47:13 <dauwhe> ... once that enters the main branch that will have a huge impact on us
16:47:19 <ivan> q+
16:47:28 <dauwhe> ... how should publishing be involved with the math group?
16:47:46 <zhengxu> (NICE, cheers for MathML back to Chrome)
16:48:06 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't think cheering from the sidelines is good enough. We should be more active.
16:48:16 <dauwhe> ... they need representatives from different communities
16:48:24 <dauwhe> ... we should find someone to be in the WG
16:48:55 <dauwhe> ... they define a subset of mathml that is required to be implemented in browsers
16:48:56 <Daihei> q+
16:49:01 <dauwhe> ... what goes into the core matters
16:49:29 <dauwhe> ... we invited them on one of our calls
16:49:36 <dauwhe> ... we should do this in January
16:49:45 <Avneesh> q+
16:50:13 <dauwhe> ... talking before the charter is finalized is important
16:50:13 <zhengxu> q+
16:50:25 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2020OctDec/0030.html "Advance notice: Working in progress on a Math Working Group Charter" [23-Nov]
16:50:28 <dauwhe> Ralph: advance notice was sent
16:51:06 <dauwhe> Ralph: we can comment on the charter, so it meets the needs of the publishing community
16:51:13 <dauwhe> ... best to do it RIGHT NOW
16:51:35 <dauwhe> ... it gets harder after it's out for AC review
16:51:52 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2020OctDec/0030.html "Advance notice: Working in progress on a Math Working Group Charter" [23-Nov]
16:52:11 <dauwhe> Daihei: what's happening in Japan:
16:52:25 <dauwhe> ... 1. A11y is getting more and more attention
16:53:02 <dauwhe> ... APL ... there's a significant request from the publishers on what to do
16:53:21 <dauwhe> ... maybe have a LIA a11y webinar for Japanese publishing community
16:53:23 <wendyreid> q+ to ask Daihei a question
16:53:33 <dauwhe> ... and APL will take action to include a11y
16:54:09 <dauwhe> ... Digital publishing business in Japan has expanded
16:54:22 <dauwhe> ... it's not just manga, but reflowable content is expanding
16:54:49 <dauwhe> ... creation of reflowable text-based content costs more than image-based manga
16:55:06 <dauwhe> ... and publishers are using FXL to embed text
16:55:16 <dauwhe> ... and we will see a mix of FXL and reflow
16:55:42 <dauwhe> ... new participants from publisher ??? particpated in w3c
16:55:55 <dauwhe> ... and they are interested in things outside of publishing at w3c
16:56:12 <dauwhe> ... interested in WOT, immersive web, audiobook, etc
16:56:32 <dauwhe> ... they are looking for something more advanced
16:56:45 <Zakim> wendyreid, you wanted to ask Daihei a question
16:56:50 <dauwhe> ... and taking advantage of new W3C stuff
16:57:21 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I'm organizing an accessible publishing conference in Canada next year
16:57:27 <dauwhe> ... because it's online we can invite more people
16:57:36 <dauwhe> ... might japanese publishers be interested in attending?
16:57:48 <George> George has a hard stop at the top of the hour and will drop.
16:57:49 <dauwhe> ... it's canadian government funded, but we talk about general publisher needs
16:57:51 <dauwhe> Daihei: yes
16:57:59 <dauwhe> ... I could be coordinater
16:58:06 <dauwhe> ... APL covers all the publishers
16:58:18 <dauwhe> ... and EBPAJ
16:58:49 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I'll have the organizer call you
16:59:02 <dauwhe> Avneesh: good to hear about BG focus on A11y.
16:59:07 <dauwhe> ... coming back to mathml
16:59:18 <dauwhe> ... ivan is right that we should pay attention to mathml Core
16:59:39 <dauwhe> ... mathml core is already being implemented by Igalia in chrome
16:59:46 <dauwhe> ... there will be pressure on Firefox
16:59:50 <ivan> q+
16:59:57 <dauwhe> ... it gets hard to change after it's implemented
17:00:02 <dauwhe> ... you have to see NOW
17:00:03 <ivan> q-
17:00:12 <dauwhe> ... and there is authoring
17:00:19 <dauwhe> ... this is important for publishers
17:00:36 <ivan> avnesh, hear hear!
17:01:16 <dauwhe> zhengxu: it will be nice if we don't have to use mathjax
17:01:45 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
17:01:45 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Daihei, Bill, Avneesh, Dave, Ralph, wendyreid, George, liisamk, Cristina, zhengxu, ivan, Garth
17:01:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:01:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/11-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
17:01:50 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:01:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
17:02:09 <ivan> zhengxu: https://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/math-2020.html is the draft charter
17:02:16 <ivan> you can start there
17:03:29 <zhengxu> thanks!
17:35:16 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:35:16 <RRSAgent> I see no action items