17:02:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webdriver
17:02:25 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/12/09-webdriver-irc
17:02:30 <brwalder> Is the Zoom meeting happening? The link doesn't seem to work.
17:02:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webdriver
17:02:44 <drousso> drousso has joined #webdriver
17:03:01 <jgraham> brwalder: https://browserstack.zoom.us/j/95359479872?pwd=OWs3eE1RbXdrM1V2Rk5CcG5zSWpNQT09
17:03:24 <Honza> Honza has joined #webdriver
17:03:24 <shengfa> Thanks, new link works
17:03:43 <mathiasbynens> present+
17:03:45 <Honza> sorry what is the new link?
17:03:49 <jgraham> Zakim: This is WebDriver-BiDi
17:03:50 <AutomatedTester> https://browserstack.zoom.us/j/95359479872?pwd=OWs3eE1RbXdrM1V2Rk5CcG5zSWpNQT09
17:04:01 <jgraham> Meeting: WebDriver-BiDi
17:04:02 <shengfa> present+
17:04:09 <drousso> present+
17:04:10 <jgraham> Chair: AutomatedTester
17:04:12 <drousso_> drousso_ has joined #webdriver
17:04:21 <Honza> Thank you
17:04:23 <jgraham> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2020-12-BiDi#Agenda
17:04:32 <Honza> present+
17:05:06 <brwalder> present+
17:05:09 <jgraham> present+
17:05:12 <jgraham> q?
17:05:22 <jgraham> RRSAgent: Make logs public
17:05:26 <diemol> diemol has joined #webdriver
17:05:28 <AutomatedTester> present+
17:05:28 <jgraham> RRSAgent: Make minutes v2
17:05:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/09-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:05:36 <diemol> present+
17:05:38 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2020-12-BiDi#Agenda
17:06:13 <AutomatedTester> scribe: AutomatedTester
17:06:51 <AutomatedTester> Topic: Follow up / reminders from last meeting
17:08:00 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester No items to be discussed that aren't in the agenda already
17:08:01 <jgraham> ScribeNick: jgraham
17:08:13 <jgraham> Topic: Working Group Charter
17:08:29 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Charter expires at end of the month
17:09:00 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Recharter required to move forward. WebDriver-BiDi deliverable is current priority.
17:10:00 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Does group see value in continuing as a Working Group, or is there a preference to move to a IG? Would mean we don't get staff support and aren't working under patent policy. Still value in being a WG?
17:10:21 <jgraham> mathiasbynens: What has W3C been doing to help up to now?
17:11:46 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/2018/12/browser-testing-tools.html
17:11:47 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: W3C doesn't provide a lot of staff time. Patency policy is the main benefit. Can help with external problems. Get 0.05 of MikeSmith's time.
17:11:57 <jgraham> q+
17:12:05 <sadym_> sadym_ has joined #webdriver
17:12:32 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Patent Policy doesn't generate a lot of work.
17:12:47 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:12:49 <jgraham> ack jgraham
17:13:47 <john_chen> john_chen has joined #webdriver
17:14:25 <sadym_> sadym_ has left #webdriver
17:14:42 <jgraham> jgraham: Doesn't make sense to work as an IG. We have a standards track document that has interest from multiple vendors. Makes sense to remain on standards track
17:15:54 <gsnedders> Zakim, who's here?
17:15:54 <Zakim> Present: mathiasbynens, shengfa, drousso, Honza, brwalder, jgraham, AutomatedTester, diemol
17:15:56 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Will follow up in an email. We are delivering a specification that will have to go through the Process, so we will need to be a working group at some point in the future. Seems better to renew charter to focus on current deliverables. Need to work with MikeSmith and plh on details
17:15:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see john_chen, diemol, drousso_, Honza, drousso, Zakim, RRSAgent, brwalder, shengfa, AutomatedTester, github-bot, mkwst, jcraig, spectranaut, zcorpan, jgraham, cbiesinger,
17:15:56 <Zakim> ... odejesush99, heejin_, cb, mankyKitty, sah, NavidZ_, mattl, rbyers, JohnJansen, foolip, kereliuk, scheib, smcgruer_[EST], mathiasbynens, falken_, ella, whimboo, lukebjerring,
17:15:56 <Zakim> ... brrian, MikeSmith, logbot, gsnedders
17:16:00 <jimevans> jimevans has joined #webdriver
17:16:24 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:16:26 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Sense there's initial buy-in, futher actions will be by email
17:16:33 <jgraham> ScribeNick: AutomatedTester
17:16:34 <gsnedders> not on the call, but we'd prefer it to stay in a WG
17:17:02 <AutomatedTester> topic: Spec status updates
17:17:32 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: there are currently 3 open PRs on the spec
17:17:48 <AutomatedTester> ... Contexts https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/62
17:18:17 <AutomatedTester> ... this module has had a lot of review and should be landed soon
17:18:50 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes when contexts are discarded]
17:19:20 <AutomatedTester> ... there is an issue around this for top level context relate to 1:1 to tabs
17:19:43 <AutomatedTester> ... this was fine until cross origin (missed what was said)
17:20:09 <AutomatedTester> ... there is an open question around this that we need to resolve
17:20:13 <sadym__> sadym__ has joined #webdriver
17:21:08 <AutomatedTester> ... the other item on context, we need to update other specs to give them more detailed items that they have glossed over
17:21:14 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:21:41 <AutomatedTester> ...Realms https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/70
17:22:02 <AutomatedTester> ... this talks about events when realms where created but noit when they are destroyed
17:22:14 <AutomatedTester> ... and this needs follow up
17:22:25 <AutomatedTester> ... Logging https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/73
17:22:47 <AutomatedTester> ... this is the first module that works well and allows us to showcase the work
17:22:53 <AutomatedTester> ... this is different to cdp
17:23:12 <AutomatedTester> ... it has only 1 type of event where cdp has 3+
17:23:34 <AutomatedTester> ... the PR only coveres console and js exceptions
17:23:52 <AutomatedTester> ... I would appreciate reviews from other members on these
17:23:58 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:24:28 <AutomatedTester> topic: Event delivery on subscribe and filtering
17:24:29 <sadym__> present+
17:24:57 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: this is one of main issues with the current spec text
17:25:15 <AutomatedTester> ... when you subscribe to events in the way the spec has been written
17:25:36 <cb> present+
17:25:38 <AutomatedTester> ... there is a race condition from subscribing of events and events happening
17:26:18 <AutomatedTester> ... e.g. in devtools if you open the console it will show all the previous messages nad not just from that point
17:26:29 <AutomatedTester> PR: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/72
17:26:49 <AutomatedTester> ... so you can easily miss events
17:27:19 <AutomatedTester> ... the way that CDP solves this is that it emits events when you enable
17:27:30 <AutomatedTester> and has all the items
17:28:04 <AutomatedTester> ... the contention is that we need to have something that is not a regression to existing protocols
17:28:57 <AutomatedTester> ... one of the problems that I see we have set up very granular filtering do we need to reapply the filtering
17:29:52 <AutomatedTester> ... so what is our strategy to allow clients to get the events they want exactly once with race conditions
17:29:55 <brwalder> q+
17:30:07 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
17:30:26 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: So doing what CDP does here is one option
17:30:44 <AutomatedTester> ... we could track the events that we would have fired
17:31:29 <AutomatedTester> ... the race condition is made worse because need to have the relevant browsering contexts
17:31:37 <AutomatedTester> ... and then trying to apply filtering
17:31:48 <AutomatedTester> ... one solution could be to have the filtering done wit
17:31:57 <AutomatedTester> ... out the id
17:32:14 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: that could work if people subscribe to events globally
17:32:30 <AutomatedTester> ... there is a quiestion around use cases
17:32:46 <AutomatedTester> ... do we want to connect to a current browser
17:33:21 <brwalder> q+
17:33:40 <AutomatedTester> ... I think we want to have a mechanism to construct a way to get events you may have missed
17:33:44 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
17:34:08 <shengfa> q+
17:34:52 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: there are 2 types of contexts here ...ones the automator creates and the ones the browser starts
17:35:05 <AutomatedTester> ... e.g. webworkers or popups
17:35:54 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes url filtering]
17:35:58 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:36:07 <AutomatedTester> ack shengfa
17:37:27 <AutomatedTester> shengfa: I think for the specific caase for browsing context. On the remote end we can keep a list of these contexts. For the events we can have a sequence number so that they could see which events are duplicated
17:37:32 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: that makes sense
17:37:57 <AutomatedTester> ... I think we already have a mechanism to filter duplicates
17:38:29 <AutomatedTester> ... my concern for existing CDP clients is they dont need to do this now so I dont see people wanting to move across
17:39:01 <AutomatedTester> shengfa: one differenvce between us and CDP is that we want to send a list of browsing context. CDP just sends you everything
17:39:21 <AutomatedTester> ... I can't see how we can avoid the race so we need to do something
17:39:27 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I agree
17:40:10 <AutomatedTester> ... what I would like to be is that if you dont ask for a list of contexts that you can still see what events have happened
17:40:37 <AutomatedTester> shengfa: in that case that might be with minimal changes.
17:41:10 <AutomatedTester> ... the client could ask for a specific sequence number and the remote end sends that and all the future events
17:41:30 <brwalder> q+
17:41:37 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: that's interesting... I would how much buffering we would need to do
17:42:35 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes a possible issue with 2 browsing contexts]
17:44:04 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes how filtering and buffering might work]
17:44:30 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:44:57 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
17:45:39 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: I like the idea from shengfa about a sequence number that the client
17:46:10 <AutomatedTester> ... but I am not sure if we need to do this since the remote end knows what it last sent
17:46:47 <AutomatedTester> ... so we can do just send from the buffer
17:46:59 <shengfa> q+
17:47:08 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: yes, that's what I was trying to explain
17:47:26 <AutomatedTester> ... it sounds complicated but not impossible
17:48:17 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: We may need to have a way to buffer certain events
17:48:36 <AutomatedTester> .. and for the rest we can regenerate them on demand
17:48:55 <AutomatedTester> ... the key problem is that some of those events have already been emitted
17:49:59 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: we are going to have some state here to keep track of where we are
17:50:31 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes being subscribed to a child ifraame aand then subscribin to a top level context]
17:51:05 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: I think if we are going to have something similar to CDP will allow easier adoption
17:51:21 <AutomatedTester> ... I am not sure what the use cases are here
17:51:22 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:51:54 <AutomatedTester> shengfa: It might be difficult to support every edge case
17:52:08 <AutomatedTester> ... I think it's better to have a soltion for each specific case
17:52:41 <AutomatedTester> ... we need to have 2 types of events. One thats buffered and one that isnt
17:53:49 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:53:57 <jgraham> ack shengfa
17:54:50 <AutomatedTester> Topic: Design principles
17:55:03 <AutomatedTester> https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/78
17:55:36 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: foolip has filed an issue about the design constrants we know but but it's not written down anywhere
17:55:59 <AutomatedTester> ... and there are some assumptions that we haven't got written down
17:56:20 <AutomatedTester> ... so we've written this down
17:56:57 <jgraham> s/we've written this down/we haven't written this down/
17:57:24 <AutomatedTester> ... so the question for this group is do we think that this is useful for our time and effort to write this down
17:58:31 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: so do we use the issue for gathering?
17:58:34 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: yes please
17:59:28 <jgraham> RRSAgent: Make minutes v2
17:59:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/09-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
18:00:22 <jgraham> RRSAgent: bye
18:00:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items