14:44:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pwe
14:44:23 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/12/08-pwe-irc
14:44:29 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pwe
14:44:33 <tzviya> Meeting: PWE
14:44:37 <tzviya> Chair: Tzviya
14:44:43 <tzviya> Date: 2020-12-08
14:45:39 <tzviya> agenda+ Review Roadmap
14:45:39 <tzviya> agenda+ Should PWE merge with IDCG?
14:45:39 <tzviya> Agenda+ AOB
14:56:05 <tzviya> present+
15:00:10 <jeff> jeff has joined #pwe
15:00:46 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #pwe
15:00:48 <tzviya> regrets+ Wendy
15:01:21 <wseltzer> regrets+ wseltzer
15:01:49 <Ralph> present+
15:02:37 <Ralph> presetn+ Sheila
15:02:49 <Ralph> s/presetn+ Sheila//
15:03:03 <Ralph> present+ Sheila
15:03:53 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pwe/2020Dec/0001.html
15:03:59 <Ralph> scribe+
15:04:07 <sheila> sheila has joined #pwe
15:04:08 <tzviya> regrets+ Wendy_Reid
15:04:40 <Ralph> chair: Tzviya
15:05:08 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/09/08-pwe-minutes.html previous 08-Sep
15:05:38 <Ralph> present+ Jeff
15:06:00 <Ralph> topic: Review Roadmap
15:06:03 <hober> present+
15:06:05 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/wiki/PWE-Roadmap
15:06:11 <Ralph> Tzviya; it's been a while since we discussed our ^^ roadmap
15:06:32 <Ralph> ... I suspect we're off-schedule
15:06:33 <Judy> Judy has joined #pwe
15:06:45 <Ralph> ... Judy and I have taken up some of these
15:07:03 <Ralph> ... looking at the role of Ombuds, redefining that role
15:07:23 <Ralph> ... let's take a look a this and try to reassess the timeline
15:08:03 <Ralph> ... we had an agressive schedule, not considering how TPAC would impact us
15:08:16 <Ralph> Judy: I had been focussing more on CEPC training
15:08:43 <Ralph> ... after the TPAC training we did I haven't been able to come back to Ombuds procedures and trainings until yesterday
15:08:53 <Ralph> ... I think we've slipped 1 or 2 quarters
15:09:14 <Ralph> ... most of the stuff that is Q3 or Q4 2020 should be Q1 and Q2 2021
15:09:30 <Ralph> ... Ralph and I have some items that align with this chart
15:09:52 <Ralph> ... I'm guessing end of Q2 or more realistic, start of Q3
15:10:07 <Ralph> ... looking at the Ombuds program I'm equally worried about the CEPC Procedures
15:10:25 <Ralph> ... I feel we need focussed discusions in this group to dig into those next sessions
15:10:38 <Ralph> ... we've had some good discussion on CEPC training; I think we can take that work off-line
15:10:46 <Ralph> ... but we need discussion here on Ombuds
15:11:02 <Ralph> Tzviya: I agree; the Procedures and Ombuds Program go hand-in-hand
15:11:17 <Ralph> ... I'm wondering if there are fresh ideas about how to approach this
15:11:29 <Ralph> Sheila: I have some experience with ombuds program
15:11:49 <Ralph> ... I co-chaired an I&D group in a previous job and wrote an ombuds job description
15:11:59 <Ralph> ... I'd be happy to take a look at this
15:12:04 <Ralph> Tzviya: thanks!
15:12:09 <Judy> q+
15:12:56 <Ralph> ... the CEPC training we did was fine; we need to more of it
15:13:17 <Ralph> ... it's worth this group looking at the roadmap and discussing whether this is [still] the right set of tasks
15:13:28 <Ralph> ... feel free to edit the wiki off-line
15:13:36 <tzviya> ack Judy
15:13:59 <Ralph> ... Judy, please edit the dates in the wiki
15:14:08 <Ralph> Judy: I have permission to slip the dates by 2 quarters?
15:14:10 <Ralph> Tzviya: yes
15:14:27 <jeff> q+
15:14:31 <Ralph> topic: Should PWE merge with IDCG
15:14:45 <Ralph> Tzviya: I've been speaking with the co-chairs of the IDCG about whether the two groups should merge
15:14:50 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2020/12/01-idcg-minutes.html#t02
15:15:03 <Ralph> ... see ^^ IDCG mintus from 1-Dec
15:15:21 <Ralph> Jeff: regarding procedures for the roadmap,
15:15:36 <Ralph> ... if someone violates CEPC right now the DIrector has authority to suspend participation
15:15:39 <Judy> q+
15:16:00 <Ralph> ... in [northern hemisphere] summer, W3M cleared up the procedures
15:16:22 <Ralph> ... when this was published some chairs asked for clarity on what chairs could do
15:16:37 <Ralph> ... we never had clarity on that, as the Director had never delegated to chairs
15:17:02 <Ralph> ... I suggest we add a line in the roadmap to identify what chairs are able to do in terms of procedures under CEPC
15:17:11 <Ralph> ... and fill out who should be responsible for that and by when
15:17:17 <jeff> ack je
15:17:19 <tzviya> ack Judy
15:17:34 <Ralph> Judy: maybe that should be a broader task to identify any existing procedures?
15:17:40 <Ralph> ... we have micro-procedures in several places
15:17:48 <Ralph> ... chairs can do some things that Team Contacts do
15:17:59 <Ralph> Jeff: #3 is determining the types of procedures needed
15:18:13 <Ralph> Tzviya: maybe these are GitHub issues that are editorial
15:18:59 <Ralph> Judy: a suggestion: for oth the Ombuds section of the Roadmap and the Procedures section, as we're in early December and may not have many more meetings this month I'd like to see if we can get a little more momentum in those sections
15:19:20 <Ralph> ... confirm who is working on those so we know the first few tasks have assignees
15:19:38 <Ralph> ... note that there's one item for which no one is assigned yet
15:19:50 <Ralph> Tzviya: by all means, anyone here please volunteer
15:20:14 <Ralph> ... I'm delaying the request for volunteers until we talk more about merging with IDCG
15:20:15 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2020/12/01-idcg-minutes.html#t02
15:20:17 <Ralph> --
15:20:28 <Ralph> Tzviya: we've had dwindling participation in PWE CG
15:20:44 <Ralph> ... probably because we completed our most significant task: publishing CEPC
15:20:59 <Ralph> ... our overall goal to make W3C more positive and inclusive is the same for PWE and IDCG
15:21:04 <Ralph> ... though the tasks are different
15:21:27 <Ralph> ... IDCG is working on the actions that come from the BLM [proposed] statement, building an Equity Review Board
15:21:31 <Ralph> ... things like that
15:21:53 <Ralph> ... since the membership largely overlaps and we're at points in both groups where things are shifting a bit
15:21:59 <Ralph> ... chair changes
15:22:14 <Ralph> ... we thought it might be a good time to merge the groups
15:22:19 <Ralph> ... we can still have task forces
15:22:35 <Ralph> ... there were no objections in the IDCG meeting; nearly unanimous
15:22:49 <Ralph> Shiela: I saw a question around workload
15:23:02 <Ralph> ... whether there would be enough bandwidth to do the work of both groups if we combine them
15:23:10 <Ralph> ... was there a resolution?
15:23:17 <Ralph> Tzviya: it's a great question
15:23:27 <Ralph> ... mostly it's the same people doing the work
15:23:34 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:23:43 <Ralph> ... my feeling is that by combinging we might be able to share more easily
15:24:13 <jeff> Ralph: I have not had the time to participate in IDCG.
15:24:21 <jeff> ... I've been reading the minutes
15:24:26 <jeff> ... combining would help me
15:24:41 <jeff> ... understand inclusion and diversity and how CEPC can help support
15:24:45 <jeff> ... no objection
15:24:52 <jeff> ... mildly in favor
15:24:53 <Judy> q+
15:24:57 <tzviya> ack Judy
15:24:57 <Ralph> i/Ralph: I/scribe+ Jeff
15:25:06 <Ralph> Judy: I'd be interested in hearing from everyone here
15:25:30 <Ralph> ... from my  perspective there is clearly strongly shared interest and strongly overlapping participation
15:25:47 <Ralph> ... two things I worry about were already mentioned: I'm not sure if I'm fully convinced yet]
15:26:26 <Ralph> ... because the types of work are very different, to make progress on Ombuds and Procedures will be very focused and exacting and requires some common background, I worry that work will slow down even more
15:26:37 <Ralph> ... but maybe a task force would allow it to proceed
15:26:53 <Ralph> ... in IDCG I worry that the progress on BLM would get further subsumed
15:27:01 <jeff> [what Judy said]
15:27:07 <Ralph> Tess: I think it makes sense to merge the groups
15:27:35 <Ralph> Tzviya: I understand the concerns about the progress of the Ombuds program
15:27:59 <Ralph> ... I think if we merge the groups we have potential to attract more people to help with the Ombuds program
15:28:27 <Ralph> Tess: if the groups do merge, can we use the PWE meeting schedule and change the meeting time when the US changes clocks?
15:28:42 <Ralph> Tzviya: my intention is to send a doodle poll about meeting time
15:28:57 <Ralph> ... the IDCG meeting time also doesn't work well for me
15:29:09 <Ralph> ... probably the schedule will shift to something more friendly to the US West Coast
15:29:21 <Ralph> Sheila: merging makes sense to me
15:29:49 <Ralph> ... one thing that would be nice to think about is the benefit of having two groups from a recruiting perspective is that it provides diverse ways for people to engage
15:30:02 <Ralph> ... I think that can be addressed in how the group is pitched once the merged group is formed
15:30:10 <Ralph> ... how we communicate the different work streams within it
15:30:26 <Ralph> ... there are a few different ways that people can engage depending on their interests and background
15:31:04 <Ralph> ... I've heard from a number of black people that they're being  pulled into many groups and feeling a bit like tokens
15:31:18 <Ralph> ... so even the naming of the group will be important
15:31:38 <Judy> q+
15:31:41 <Ralph> Tzivya: we need a more formal charter too, to know what our goals are and what we hope to accomplish
15:31:44 <tzviya> ack Judy
15:31:55 <Ralph> ... I've been talking with another volunteer to help draft that
15:32:10 <Ralph> Judy: I'm interested in what Sheila was raising in terms of naming
15:32:31 <Ralph> ... and how we might see some of the more detailed work  progressing
15:32:59 <Ralph> ... whether we're recreating the same thing with an additional level of bureaucracy
15:33:12 <Ralph> Tzviya: poll -- should PWE merge with IDCG?
15:33:15 <Ralph> <ralph> +1
15:33:17 <tzviya> +1
15:33:21 <sheila> +1
15:33:23 <Judy> 0
15:33:26 <jeff> 0
15:33:30 <hober> +1
15:33:54 <Ralph> Tzviya: it looks like we will be merging; neither group had objections
15:34:33 <Ralph> ... I'll be discussing with the co-chairs of IDCG; they're stepping down but have some volunteers who have expressed interest
15:35:03 <Ralph> topic: AOBV
15:35:06 <Ralph> s/V//
15:35:57 <Ralph> subtopic: Ombuds Program
15:36:28 <Ralph> Judy: let's look at the roadmap together
15:36:55 <Ralph> ... Ralph and I had a task to look at the current MIT Ombuds
15:37:06 <Ralph> ... I think the intention is to give more structure to that
15:37:31 <Ralph> ... if there's time in the next meeting we should try to prepare something
15:37:57 <Ralph> ... can we prepare a discussion for the next meeting?
15:38:05 <Ralph> ... queue up what needs discussion in this group?
15:38:12 <Ralph> Tzviya: I'm willing to help
15:38:57 <Ralph> Judy: what about "define selection criteria for W3C Ombuds"?  I'm thinking a pump-priming activity here
15:39:06 <jeff> q+
15:39:20 <Ralph> ... is there a reason to have the two tasks: define the role and define the selection criteria as separate?
15:39:35 <Ralph> Shiela: they'll feed into each other a lot but will probably be sequenced
15:40:23 <Ralph> Jeff: the big question with the role is whether we envision it to be roughly what the role is today or drastically different
15:40:33 <Ralph> ... there's a wide range of what ombuds do in various organizations
15:40:44 <Ralph> ... our current Ombuds role is, I think, best described as "facilitiator"
15:41:00 <Ralph> ... if we're going to continue that role then it's fine for the discussions to proceed in parallel
15:41:01 <tzviya> q+
15:41:20 <Judy> ack j
15:41:22 <Judy> ack t
15:41:22 <Ralph> ... but if we're thinking of a drastically ramped-up version of what Ombuds do, that will impact the selection criteria
15:41:31 <Ralph> Tzivya: right now we don't have any document on the role of an Ombuds
15:41:32 <jeff> s/ramped/amped/
15:41:41 <Ralph> ... whether we have an assumped understanding or not, we need to document it
15:41:55 <Judy> q+
15:41:58 <Ralph> ... some of us understand what the role is today but we need to document it, even if it doesn't change
15:42:06 <Ralph> ... Sheila and I are volunteering to do that
15:42:15 <tzviya> ack Judy
15:42:16 <Ralph> ... the selection criteria will flow out of that
15:42:42 <Ralph> Judy: let's leave these as distinct tasks; that way we'll be able to sequence them
15:43:03 <Ralph> ... my thoughts of defining the role is a bit more than documenting the current role
15:43:26 <Ralph> ... thanks for working on this
15:43:37 <Ralph> Judy: on identifying the LE Ombuds needs ...
15:43:52 <Ralph> ... I've had some preliminary discussions with Wendy Seltzer on this
15:44:06 <Ralph> ... once we spin out from MIT would we need an investigational program
15:44:17 <Ralph> ... I could resume that discussion with WSeltzer and Ralph
15:44:28 <Ralph> ... happy for others to join us
15:44:51 <Ralph> ... I've also had some discussions with WSelzter and Bill Judge about LE resourcing; we've identified that as an open question
15:45:08 <Ralph> ... I'm happy to move forward on those unless someone else has suggestions
15:45:13 <Ralph> Tzviya: happy to help
15:45:26 <Ralph> Judy: thanks; I'll update the wiki
15:46:59 <Ralph> ... I won't attempt to get volunteers for "select new W3C Ombuds" and "plan W3C LE Ombuds selection"
15:50:38 <Ralph> Judy: under CEPC Procedures ...
15:50:55 <Ralph> ... can we identify volunteers for the first one, "gather procedures from other organizations"?
15:51:07 <Ralph> Tzviya: we've gathered tons of information about other codes of conduct
15:51:27 <Ralph> ... finding out how they are put into practice is harder; that information doesn't tend to be public
15:51:32 <Ralph> ... ideas on how to capture that?
15:52:02 <Ralph> Judy: the procedures are much more back-office stuff; maybe the only way we'll get it is to have conversations with the organizations
15:52:14 <Ralph> ... and they might be reluctant to share it for various reasons
15:52:33 <Ralph> ... so this might require developing trust relationships to get some sets that are shareable
15:52:53 <Ralph> Tzviya: there's a CoC community in social media; I can start there and do some research
15:54:13 <Ralph> ... for the legal review task we need to plan to hire an outside expert
15:54:27 <Ralph> Judy: I know some people; it's possible to find them
15:54:46 <Ralph> topic: Next Meeting
15:54:58 <Ralph> Tzviya: per the calendar, our next meeting would be 22 December
15:55:04 <Ralph> ... I'm guessing a lot of people won't be available then
15:55:21 <Ralph> ... watch the public-pwe list for email
15:55:34 <Ralph> ... I'm guessing that there will continue to be two mailing lists for a couple of months
15:55:45 <Ralph> ... stay safe everyone
15:55:51 <Ralph> [adjourned]
15:55:55 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
15:55:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been tzviya, Ralph, Sheila, Jeff, hober
15:55:57 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:55:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/08-pwe-minutes.html Zakim
15:56:01 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:56:05 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pwe
15:56:55 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
16:36:23 <Ralph> regrets- Wendy
16:36:30 <Ralph> regrets- wseltzer
16:36:38 <Ralph> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:36:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/12/08-pwe-minutes.html Ralph
16:36:58 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:36:58 <RRSAgent> I see no action items