15:52:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #epub-a11y
15:52:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/11/26-epub-a11y-irc
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15:52:49 <Avneesh> zakim, this will be epub-a11y
15:52:49 <Zakim> ok, Avneesh
15:53:08 <Avneesh> present+
15:53:23 <Avneesh> chair: Avneesh
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16:05:18 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:05:49 <wendyreid> Avneesh: Part of the charter is aligning EPUb Accessiblity with the EUAA
16:05:55 <George> George has joined #epub-a11y
16:06:04 <wendyreid> Luc: We know the principles of EPUB Accessibility is WCAG
16:06:08 <wendyreid> ... we know all this
16:06:18 <George> present+
16:06:21 <wendyreid> ... in the EUAA, we find the same principles and requirements
16:06:28 <wendyreid> ... POUR
16:06:47 <wendyreid> ... these are spread inside the act in different concerns for products and services
16:06:52 <Cristina> Cristina has joined #epub-a11y
16:06:59 <Cristina> present+
16:07:33 <MattChan> present+
16:07:44 <wendyreid> ... product is devices (ATMs, websites), and the services are files, like EPUBs
16:08:10 <wendyreid> ... services could be ticketing, ecommerce, etc
16:08:24 <wendyreid> ... the provision of ebooks for reading is providing a service
16:08:25 <Avneesh> EU accessibility act requirements: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/882/oj?eliuri=eli:dir:2019:882:oj
16:08:46 <wendyreid> ... services is where POUR comes in
16:09:06 <wendyreid> ... the wordings are different between EPUB Accessibility and EUAA
16:09:07 <Cristina> q+
16:09:12 <wendyreid> ... how do we synchronize them
16:09:25 <wendyreid> ... do we need to make them align in their wording?
16:09:35 <wendyreid> Avneesh: There is a difference here
16:09:41 <wendyreid> ... the EUAA has functional requirements
16:09:49 <wendyreid> ... EPUB Accessibility has success criteria
16:10:02 <wendyreid> ... EPUB Accessiblity has more specific guidelines
16:10:33 <wendyreid> ... for example, EUAA says there should be alternatives for text content, based on WCAG
16:10:45 <wendyreid> ... we should instead adjust the success criteria
16:10:51 <wendyreid> ... instead of rewriting
16:11:34 <wendyreid> Luc: Section 3 of EUAA (see link)
16:11:48 <wendyreid> Cristina: This is what is existing in the directive
16:11:52 <wendyreid> ... it's very high-level
16:11:58 <wendyreid> ... as it also covers websites and other services
16:12:15 <wendyreid> ... is WCAG is more based on success criteria or functional requirements
16:12:25 <wendyreid> ... for the directive, they adopted based on WCAG
16:12:35 <wendyreid> ... when you are talking about EPUB Accessibility, it also refers to WCAG
16:12:42 <wendyreid> Avneesh: It refers to WCAG
16:12:50 <wendyreid> Cristina: This is very high-level
16:13:07 <wendyreid> ... I think that mapping the high-level requirements to success criteria in EPUB Accessibility is a good idea
16:13:13 <wendyreid> Luc: That's how we need to make it
16:13:45 <wendyreid> ... the discussions we had with Inmaculada (EU), for EPUB the requirements of the EUAA are covered
16:13:49 <wendyreid> ... in EPUB Accessibility
16:14:04 <wendyreid> Avneesh: What is the format of this? Do we want to provide mapping?
16:14:10 <wendyreid> ... what is the structure and timeline
16:14:19 <wendyreid> Luc: The format should be a document with a mapping
16:14:29 <wendyreid> ... where EUAA and EPUB Accessiblity meet
16:14:32 <Cristina> q+
16:14:46 <wendyreid> ... the timing would be good to see in Q1 2021
16:14:50 <wendyreid> ... January
16:15:04 <wendyreid> ... she has to plan for the method in mid-2021
16:15:07 <wendyreid> ... June
16:15:27 <wendyreid> ... in June she would have to say "There's something for ebooks", and could point to EPUB
16:15:37 <wendyreid> ... and it has been developed openly through consensus
16:15:50 <wendyreid> ... she could direct the commission to this
16:16:19 <wendyreid> ... otherwise she would have to direct an EU standardization body to develop one of their own
16:16:29 <wendyreid> Cristina: I don't think they would choose a format
16:16:40 <wendyreid> ... they would choose any format that meets the requirements
16:16:49 <wendyreid> ... we need to not only consider EPUB
16:16:58 <wendyreid> ... the commission will not only recommend EPUB
16:17:20 <wendyreid> ... it would be impossible for the commission to select only one
16:18:03 <wendyreid> Avneesh: As far as success criteria, EPUB Accessiblity is format independent
16:18:14 <wendyreid> George: Do we need to change the title of the document in revision?
16:18:24 <wendyreid> Avneesh: That is a broader discussion
16:18:35 <wendyreid> George: It's a possibility though?
16:18:42 <wendyreid> Avneesh: There's ways of doing it
16:19:00 <wendyreid> ... we start with EPUB Accessibility and change the name
16:19:16 <wendyreid> George: Something like digital publication conformance and discoverability
16:19:35 <wendyreid> ... we need an introductory statement of how this document meets the requirements of the EUAA
16:19:45 <wendyreid> ... link to the places in our specification that meets the functional requirements
16:20:15 <wendyreid> ... walk through the document with links and affirmative statements
16:20:23 <wendyreid> Luc: I don't think we should change the name
16:20:27 <wendyreid> ... it's for EPUB
16:20:42 <wendyreid> ... and this will avoid the question of PDF
16:20:53 <wendyreid> ... the commission will need technical specifications for ebooks in general
16:21:10 <wendyreid> ... we haven't thoroughly discussed this with Inmaculada
16:21:23 <wendyreid> ... if we say it is for digital publications, would it cover PDF?
16:21:58 <wendyreid> Avneesh: The discussion we had in the past, the takeaway was if the EU is going for a harmonized standard, it needs to work with different technologies
16:22:13 <wendyreid> ... if they want a technical standard, then any non-profit org can submit a specification
16:22:24 <wendyreid> ... there can be more than one that meets the functional requirements
16:22:33 <wendyreid> Luc: It's not for us to explain how PDF meets the requirements
16:22:41 <wendyreid> ... what we would try to prove is that EPUB conforms
16:22:56 <wendyreid> George: I agree, and if we don't have to change the name that's fine
16:23:01 <wendyreid> ... when we think of the services
16:23:21 <wendyreid> ... the provision of books by a publisher, once it's delivered to Amazon and changed, would the specification still be applied
16:23:32 <wendyreid> ... everyone who ingests changes the book in some way
16:23:39 <wendyreid> q+
16:23:49 <wendyreid> ... it doesn't honour the original
16:24:04 <wendyreid> Avneesh: EU provides the functional requirements, Amazon has to meet them
16:24:33 <wendyreid> Cristina: The requirements are laid out, we need to provide the details, but it won't be format-specific
16:25:02 <wendyreid> ... if there's a new format that is accessible and compliant in the future, they can't go back and change things, it needs to be future proof
16:25:03 <wendyreid> q-
16:25:35 <wendyreid> Luc: If in the case that the commission uses the technical specifications, any format on the market needs to prove conformance
16:25:48 <wendyreid> ... it would be Amazon's job to prove that the kindle format is conformant
16:25:58 <wendyreid> ... anyone publishing to PDF would have to do the same
16:26:13 <wendyreid> ... on our side, we have to so the job for EPUB
16:26:27 <wendyreid> ... I don't know if the commission would ask us for PDF
16:27:00 <wendyreid> Avneesh: Speaking from a technical perspective, if we make EPUB Accessibility purely technical like WCAG, it would be challenging
16:27:06 <wendyreid> ... we would have to move a lot to techniques
16:27:13 <wendyreid> Luc: I don't think that is mandatory
16:27:20 <wendyreid> Cristina: We might need to add other metadata
16:27:36 <wendyreid> ... the requirement is to have metadata distributable in the chain
16:27:46 <wendyreid> ... if we discuss schema we might also need ONIX
16:27:53 <wendyreid> Avneesh: There is a provision for metadata
16:28:02 <wendyreid> ... for this call we should focus on the high-level plan
16:28:26 <wendyreid> ... do we need a clarification from the representative to make EPUB Accessibility an abstract specification
16:28:31 <wendyreid> ... or can we focus on EPUB
16:28:41 <wendyreid> Luc: It might be a good time to discuss with Inmaculada
16:28:46 <wendyreid> ... we have a new revision
16:28:56 <wendyreid> ... we plan to provide the necessary documents
16:29:04 <wendyreid> ... showing the conformance
16:29:18 <wendyreid> ... there is a missing link here between the act and the technical specifications
16:29:36 <wendyreid> Cristina: I'm not sure we need to go to her
16:29:39 <wendyreid> ... we have done many meetings
16:29:47 <wendyreid> ... she will not tell us exactly what is needed
16:29:52 <wendyreid> ... we should start working
16:30:03 <wendyreid> ... then we will have an idea of the challenges
16:30:26 <wendyreid> ... if we tell her to accept this, we can seem like we're forcing this
16:30:49 <wendyreid> ... we should focus on the mapping
16:31:12 <wendyreid> George: One question and one though
16:31:24 <MattChan> s/though/thought
16:31:24 <wendyreid> ... is Inmaculada the right person to talk to about this
16:32:27 <wendyreid> s/... is Inmaculada the right person to talk to about this//
16:32:37 <wendyreid> s/George: One question and one though//
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16:34:44 <lucaudrain> present+
16:36:23 <wendyreid> Avneesh: Timeline wise, we will be prepared to have a FPWD in February
16:36:45 <wendyreid> ... a draft of what we expect to send could be sent in January
16:37:01 <wendyreid> Luc: This timing should work
16:37:32 <wendyreid> Avneesh: Short term plan, working on this mapping document
16:37:40 <wendyreid> ... it should show the direction by January
16:38:04 <wendyreid> ... after which we'll get feedback and carry on based on the feedback
16:38:13 <wendyreid> ... Cristina and Luc, you will be working on this?
16:38:30 <wendyreid> ... I will help as well, but I want the Europeans to take the lead
16:38:36 <wendyreid> Cristina: Gregorio as well
16:38:45 <wendyreid> ... I am wondering how to format this
16:38:49 <wendyreid> ... perhaps a table
16:39:07 <wendyreid> ... with the EUAA requirements in one column, the EPUb Accessibility mapping, and comments
16:39:14 <wendyreid> Avneesh: That sounds good
16:39:28 <wendyreid> Cristina: We've done it before, but we need to see if we have a 1:1 mapping for the elements
16:39:48 <wendyreid> ... it could be that there are empty spaces
16:40:10 <wendyreid> wendyreid: That would be a good visualization of any gaps
16:40:47 <wendyreid> George: I think the important gaps are if there's a missing requirement for an EUAA requirement
16:41:10 <wendyreid> ... have an intro from the EPUB Accessibility doc, then the table, make any issues clear in the comments
16:41:17 <wendyreid> lucaudrain: I can start a first draft
16:41:38 <wendyreid> ... we can work together to figure this out
16:42:01 <wendyreid> ... we can divide the work
16:42:10 <wendyreid> ... there's less than 15 requirements
16:42:19 <wendyreid> Avneesh: Where would we like to collaborate?
16:42:24 <wendyreid> ... wiki on GitHub
16:42:35 <wendyreid> lucaudrain: I am ok with that
16:42:43 <wendyreid> Cristina: Then we can all access the document
16:43:06 <wendyreid> Avneesh: The optimized way is markdown and pull requests, but that is too heavy right now
16:43:18 <wendyreid> George: Is it easy to format a table in the wiki?
16:43:22 <wendyreid> Avneesh: It's just markdown
16:43:37 <wendyreid> Cristina: I've received from ISO the documents that EPUB Accessibility has been approved
16:43:42 <wendyreid> ... its official?
16:43:57 <wendyreid> Avneesh: We were expecting approval in November, so it is official
16:44:03 <wendyreid> George: Did that come in today?
16:44:11 <wendyreid> Cristina: I got it this morning
16:46:09 <wendyreid> s/is official/might be the notification/
16:47:04 <wendyreid> Avneesh: All of the EPUB specifications in ISO are available for free
16:48:40 <wendyreid> ... so we have the action plan, I will create the wiki and we can start collaborating
16:48:45 <wendyreid> ... anything else to discuss today?
16:54:19 <Avneesh> rrsagent, make logs public
16:54:32 <Avneesh> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:54:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/11/26-epub-a11y-minutes.html Avneesh
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