13:38:25 RRSAgent has joined #idcg 13:38:25 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/11/17-idcg-irc 13:38:42 Meeting: IDCG meeting 17 November 13:38:46 chair: Léonie 13:38:58 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 13:39:07 zakim, clear agenda 13:39:07 agenda cleared 13:39:22 agendabot has joined #idcg 13:39:26 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Nov/0010.html 13:39:26 agenda+ Personal pronouns in W3C profiles 13:39:27 clear agenda 13:39:27 agenda+ Personal pronouns in W3C profiles 13:39:27 agenda+ Next steps with the BLM statement 13:39:28 agenda+ Actions 13:39:35 agenda+ Next steps with the BLM statement 13:39:43 agenda+ Progress on actions 13:39:53 regrets: Wendy_Seltzer, Annette_Greiner, Marisa_DeMeglio 13:40:32 regrets+ Tobie_Langel 13:41:13 -> https://www.w3.org/2020/10/13-idcg-minutes.html Previous: 2020-10-13 join meeting of IDCG and PWECG as part of TPAC 2020 13:41:56 -> https://www.w3.org/2020/10/06-idcg-minutes.html Previous IDCG meeting (2020-10-06) 14:00:21 tzviya has joined #idcg 14:00:51 present+ Coralie 14:00:56 present+ 14:01:26 present+ tink 14:01:37 present+ Amy 14:02:25 present+ tzviya 14:03:36 jeff has joined #idcg 14:05:07 ScribeNick: rhiaro 14:05:40 chaals has joined #idcg 14:05:48 present+ 14:05:52 TOPIC: pronouns in w3c bio 14:06:08 tink: It has been requested by ralph and wendy that people have the ability to put pronouns in w3c bio, we've been asked to share our thoughts 14:06:15 ... First question is is this a good idea? should w3c do this? 14:06:32 ... second one is the thinking is whether someone completes this section or not, that section will still be visible, the idea being it will hopefully encourage more people to add that information 14:07:04 ... last question is are we aware of any guidelines we can use to make sure whatever gets entered into those fields, are there best practices to check that what goes into those fields doesn't send out the wrong message 14:07:10 ... any thoughts on if this should happen? 14:07:23 [Judy arrives] 14:07:28 ... I think this would be a good addition 14:07:50 present+ Judy 14:07:51 tzviya: I think i'ts a good idea also, as long as it's clear it's not required 14:08:13 scribe+ 14:08:22 Amy_Guy: +1 14:08:31 ... and I agree it shouldn't be mandatory 14:08:32 scribe- 14:08:46 [chaals arrives] 14:08:48 tink: brings us back to the second part - shoud it be available if someone chooses not to fill it in 14:09:00 present+ 14:09:02 scribe+ 14:09:08 Amy: My instinct is: it shouldn't 14:09:23 ... there are cases people might not be willing to share their pronouns widely 14:09:47 ... if the field is not there at all, it may make some people more comfortable 14:09:58 scribe- 14:10:05 tink: any other thoughts? 14:10:12 +1 to rhiaro 14:10:22 ... the next part is should the field, if it exists, be user editable 14:10:34 [IMHO absolutely should be user-editable] 14:10:39 +1 14:10:46 ... there is no widely available pronoun set 14:11:12 +1 14:11:16 koalie: yes, it should be user editable so we don't create discomfort by missing people 14:11:21 tink: i agree, this is a personal choice 14:11:52 scribe+ 14:12:06 Amy: in the pronouns@@ site, there's a starting point of a list 14:12:16 s/pronouns@@/http://pronoun.is/all-pronouns 14:12:21 tink: good resource 14:12:28 ... Ralph and Wendy asked for those 14:12:30 scribe- 14:12:38 ... do we know of any other resources? 14:13:10 ... hearing none, this gives ralph and wendy a sense of where those of us on the call today are on this subject 14:13:15 koalie: yes I think that's helpful 14:13:42 TOPIC: What we think should happen with the BLM statement 14:14:09 tink: Recap - we worked on a statement, it was sent to the AC who consented for it to be published, but as the AC were reviewing it we also asked an external specialist, Kim Crayton, to review, who came back with very useful feedback 14:14:22 ... brought it home to us ethat the statement as it stood did not perhaps do everything we hoped it would or send the messaged we hoped for 14:14:32 ... this CG recommended that the statement wasnot published on behalf of w3c 14:14:40 ... we now find ourselves at the point where we need to decide what to focus on next 14:14:53 jeff: a technicality - I don't think the AC approved the statement 14:15:07 ... it went to review, there was one formal objection, the director was in the process of processing that objection 14:15:22 ... the director might have overruled it, but while he was considering the issue we got the recommendation from Kim Crayton and pulled the statement back 14:15:33 tink: I had forgotten the objection.. it was a stressful time 14:15:46 [Wendy Reid arrives] 14:16:00 ... The situation we find ourselves in at the moment (there is a github issue) - the option as I think of them are that we could edit the statement based on Kim's feedback 14:16:03 wendyreid has joined #idcg 14:16:05 ... could go back ot the AC to look at it again 14:16:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:16:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/11/17-idcg-minutes.html chaals 14:16:25 ... one of the risks if we do that is that we as a group do not have any representation from any person of colour, for whom that statement is supposed to be support of 14:16:25 present++ 14:16:29 ... that's a risk Kim pointed out 14:16:40 ... it would be wrong of us to create a statement in support of a community of people that has no representation in this group 14:16:58 ... An alternative we could decide is reediting is not where we want to focus our energies, and we could move forward with our todo list actions 14:17:06 ... and send our support out to the web community by doing, and talking about what we've been doing 14:17:09 ... there may be other possibilities 14:17:21 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-idcg/2020Nov/thread.html#msg10 thread in public-idcg: Next steps with the BLM statement 14:17:37 judy: I would favour our working on actions and trying to become a more welcoming community group 14:17:52 ... so we can be more welcoming in those in our own community who haven't yet joined this, and also reaching out to others outside the w3c space 14:18:16 ... I'm starting to work with a consultant for some of the areas of work that are looking at intersection of race and disability. Early stages, but every area of w3c work could benefit from some of that 14:18:36 ... one of the things I hope we hang onto if we do focus more on actions would be the themes from the message cos I think that those will continue to be useful 14:18:52 ... as areas of subgoals, learning, messaging, outreach, creating welcoming environment, supporting participants, ... 14:19:00 ... we also need to work on regaining our momentum as a CG 14:19:04 ... that may include some focus on logistics 14:19:18 ... getting really clear announcements of meetings and agendas, getting stuff queued up to talk about 14:19:31 ... that's my hope, and happy to help as much as I can 14:19:48 ... I don't know if there's discussion about the timing, but it conflicts with an obligation I have 14:19:59 +1 to Judy 14:20:15 tzviya: focussing on action items is important, but one of the things we talked about when were writing the statement is that one way of attracting people of colour to the community is to have a statement 14:20:21 ... the earlier version of the statement was pretty robust, there was a lot of editing 14:20:35 ... something i've noticed in looking at statements from people like the group p5 (who did great breakouts at tpac) 14:20:45 https://p5js.org/community/ 14:21:00 ... it's not necessarily an overt statement, but if you take a look at their community page, there's not a particular BLM statement, but in their page about themselves there's this list of stuff that they support and one of the things they mention is BLM 14:21:17 ... I wonder if there's something we can do, maybe coming from w3c's page in general, talking about values that w3c support 14:21:29 ... just making sure to be more inclusive in people of colour and these topics in general 14:21:41 ... making sure in mentioning other values when we're talking about supporting organisations and social good and all of that 14:21:55 ... as well as accessibility and privacy, but also BLM and particularly mentioning a phrase like BLM 14:22:29 wendyreid: I agree with everything tzviya just said, also like the p5js community statement 14:22:47 ... in lieu of our .. I want us to publish a statement of some kind because as tzviya said we need to more obviously signal to the community that this is something we are concerned about 14:22:54 ... we do want to be a more inclusive space, we want to welcome people from all backgrounds 14:23:00 ... but I also think we need to do some action 14:23:10 ... the statement maybe should be more inline with what p5 has done 14:23:21 ... not just a one time blog post, something on the website, part of our comms and messaging, saying this is who we are now 14:23:26 ... and not going to accept anything less than this 14:23:31 ... I think that that might make a bigger statement 14:23:45 ... we should probably get consultants from people like Kim and members in the community 14:23:55 ... but we have to make it clear to members of our community that this is something we are concerned about 14:24:08 ... there's nothing we can point to when people ask where w3c stands on social equity or something like that 14:24:15 I was also really impressed with Kay Martinez https://www.mghihp.edu/departments/justice-equity-diversity-and-inclusion 14:24:20 tink: you think it would be okay to make the statement part of the w3c messaging itself rather than a one of blog post? 14:24:21 wendyreid: yes 14:24:34 chaals: a couple of thoughts... I agree with judy and wendy and tzviya 14:24:37 ... what we do is pretty important 14:24:52 ... by and large i would like to focus on that if we're going to make a statement i'm not sure what the best way to do it is 14:25:00 ... I personally tend to favour fairly short statements 14:25:19 ... the reason is because .. I favour the idea that we make short statements, because we should be focussing on our actions and backing them up 14:25:44 ... yes we would like to be a much more welcoming organisation, is important, the fact that this is a middle class white anglosphere gropu suggests we would like that but we're doing a really bad job of it 14:25:54 ... and we desperately want help doing that better. probably worth saying that 14:26:12 tink: do you mean a short statement in line with what tzviya and wendy were talking about, or a separate blog post? 14:26:23 chaals: maybe as short as "black lives matter" on the top of the website 14:26:47 ... there is a question of how you get.. are we taking on a position that w3c members agree with or that they disagree with and if we are the director should be consciously saying I'm going to make this statement and if you don't like it leave 14:26:52 +1 if you don't like it leave :) 14:27:09 jeff: I strongly agree with judy and chaals, emphasis on our actions 14:27:20 ... also agree with tzviya and wendy's point of view that what we say is important 14:27:29 ... I have a slight preference for the actions (speak louder than words) 14:27:31 ... but both important 14:27:38 ... we are long overdue for the values conversation 14:27:44 ... it's happening in a number of places, at the AB to some extend 14:27:53 ... and as part of the legal entity discussions and how we want to position the organisation for the future 14:27:58 ... all of these are important directions 14:28:05 ... there's a big question about venue 14:28:10 ... I did want to express two cautions 14:28:16 ... which go above and beyond what has been said 14:28:18 [Note that I am the person least likely to support the director makes a statement and says 'if you don't like it, leave". But it might be the reasonable thing to do…] 14:28:33 ... the first is that we have to come to ground is whether we want to make a BLM statement at all 14:28:59 ... when I was hearing tzviya talking about statements and p5 and so forth, I recall that one of Ki'ms critiques of our statement is that she characterised as it wasn't the black lives matter statement, it was an all lives matter statement 14:29:18 ... we want to uplevel this to what are our values in general - if that becomes are focus we are also saying we are not going to have a BLM focus 14:29:23 ... I don't see any way of avoiding Kim's critique 14:29:27 ... it's suddenly about all of the values 14:29:36 ... she wanted something focussed exclusively on Black lives 14:29:40 ... we have to be conscious of that 14:29:50 ... Also think our biggest problem as a CG is getting the membership involved 14:30:15 ... any statement we make even if it's approved by the membership if there's no buyin and no passion and no action underneath it has the other thing that Kim critiqued 14:30:20 ... what's going to be happening as a result? 14:30:26 ... we have to find a way to get the AC actively involved 14:30:37 ... if we had 5% of the AC, 20 AC members invovled with us, that would be a huge victory 14:30:42 ... at the moment we're not a critical mass in our group 14:31:07 tink: as I understood it, Kim's feedback about not making the BLM statement into an All Lives Matter statement was said within the context of us publishing a statement about BLM 14:31:18 ... tzviya was talking about a more general message about other things we support 14:31:28 ... I don't think Kim was saing we shouldn't support a more general statement 14:31:36 ... but if we were to make a BLM statement we should focus in on the one thing 14:31:49 tzviya: I was saying we should include something specific in a general statement of values 14:32:00 ... I think Kim's concern was that our previous statement said "Black lives matter, but.." 14:32:11 tink: we should ask for input and feedback from Kim and others on how it might be perceived 14:32:16 jeff: I think I was misunderstood 14:32:34 ... I agree Leonie that Kim would not object to our having a general values statement which talked about our general values and mentioned BLM as one of the things 14:32:42 ... But she just wouldn't characterise that as a BLM statement 14:33:00 ... my point was not to say we shouldn't have a general values statement - we should - but pointing out that it wouldn't qualify to be a BLM statement according to Kim's criteria 14:33:13 ... if we put our energy into the general values statement, that's fine, but means we are taking off our immediate agenda our BLM statement 14:33:24 judy: my comment was about logistics and rebuilding momentum, i think that's well within our reach 14:33:46 ... multiple people wanted to attend but the time change made it difficult 14:34:00 ... What Jeff is focussing on is an important differentiation 14:34:13 wendyreid: Kim is not hear to speak for herself 14:34:24 ... I'm really uncomfortable with people saying what Kim would say about what we're doing 14:34:41 ... What tzviya and I are talking about is adding something to the w3c website that is inline with our mission statement 14:34:48 ... there has been confusion in the past about the w3c mission statement 14:34:49 -> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/mission W3C website: W3C Mission 14:34:57 ... this is a chance to reclarify it and reflect the modern values of w3c today 14:35:03 ... this i think is very different from a BLM statement 14:35:08 in particular: https://www.w3.org/Consortium/mission#principles 14:35:20 ... the statemetn we were originally discussing was essentially going to be a one time blogpost/tweet that might invoke discussion or news coverage 14:35:28 ... but it still would have been a one time thing, announcement wise 14:35:34 ... we would reinforce it with actions, we still want to do that 14:35:47 ... but one thing I took away from what Kim told us is that if we're doing the statemetn we have to be as impactful and short and to the point as possible 14:35:56 ... we were driven into this awkward what-about-this kind of statement 14:36:13 ... if we are to make a statement on top of what we do to change the mission statement or something like that, we should still be as short and to the point as possible 14:36:28 ... internally we need to make these changes and perform these actions, and perform these actions before we make any sort of statement 14:36:31 ... and we need help 14:36:43 ... whether from the AC, and also consultancy 14:36:55 ... there are many inclusion and diversity consultants out there 14:36:58 ... we need professional help and buyin 14:37:07 ... we're going in a slightly different direction, but we need to define that 14:37:12 +1 wendyreid 14:37:20 tink: I apologies if I spoke on behalf of other people 14:37:45 ... I'd like to finish off by doing a strawpoll on some simple questions so people who are not in the meeting can get a sense of how those of us who are here are thinking 14:38:04 PROPOSAL: we edit the blm statement in response to Kim's feedback 14:38:06 -1 14:38:12 0 14:38:19 0 14:38:21 0 14:38:22 0 14:38:24 Judy:0 14:38:47 0 14:38:51 +1 14:38:51 PROPOSAL: we explore the idea of messaging along the lines of p5js 14:39:04 +1 14:39:09 0 14:39:12 +1 14:39:12 +1 14:39:23 Judy: 0 14:39:36 PROPOSAL: we focus energies on actions that we have 14:39:38 +1 14:39:39 +1 14:39:39 +1 14:39:39 +1 14:39:40 +1 14:39:40 +1 14:39:41 Judy: +1 14:39:43 +1