IRC log of idcg on 2020-11-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:38:25 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:38:42 [tink]
Meeting: IDCG meeting 17 November
13:38:46 [tink]
chair: Léonie
13:38:58 [tink]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
13:39:07 [tink]
zakim, clear agenda
13:39:07 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
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13:39:26 [koalie]
13:39:26 [tink]
agenda+ Personal pronouns in W3C profiles
13:39:27 [agendabot]
clear agenda
13:39:27 [agendabot]
agenda+ Personal pronouns in W3C profiles
13:39:27 [agendabot]
agenda+ Next steps with the BLM statement
13:39:28 [agendabot]
agenda+ Actions
13:39:35 [tink]
agenda+ Next steps with the BLM statement
13:39:43 [tink]
agenda+ Progress on actions
13:39:53 [koalie]
regrets: Wendy_Seltzer, Annette_Greiner, Marisa_DeMeglio
13:40:32 [koalie]
regrets+ Tobie_Langel
13:41:13 [koalie]
-> Previous: 2020-10-13 join meeting of IDCG and PWECG as part of TPAC 2020
13:41:56 [koalie]
-> Previous IDCG meeting (2020-10-06)
14:00:21 [tzviya]
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14:00:51 [koalie]
present+ Coralie
14:00:56 [rhiaro]
14:01:26 [koalie]
present+ tink
14:01:37 [koalie]
present+ Amy
14:02:25 [koalie]
present+ tzviya
14:03:36 [jeff]
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14:05:07 [rhiaro]
ScribeNick: rhiaro
14:05:40 [chaals]
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14:05:48 [tzviya]
14:05:52 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: pronouns in w3c bio
14:06:08 [rhiaro]
tink: It has been requested by ralph and wendy that people have the ability to put pronouns in w3c bio, we've been asked to share our thoughts
14:06:15 [rhiaro]
... First question is is this a good idea? should w3c do this?
14:06:32 [rhiaro]
... second one is the thinking is whether someone completes this section or not, that section will still be visible, the idea being it will hopefully encourage more people to add that information
14:07:04 [rhiaro]
... last question is are we aware of any guidelines we can use to make sure whatever gets entered into those fields, are there best practices to check that what goes into those fields doesn't send out the wrong message
14:07:10 [rhiaro]
... any thoughts on if this should happen?
14:07:23 [koalie]
[Judy arrives]
14:07:28 [rhiaro]
... I think this would be a good addition
14:07:50 [koalie]
present+ Judy
14:07:51 [rhiaro]
tzviya: I think i'ts a good idea also, as long as it's clear it's not required
14:08:13 [koalie]
14:08:22 [koalie]
Amy_Guy: +1
14:08:31 [koalie]
... and I agree it shouldn't be mandatory
14:08:32 [koalie]
14:08:46 [koalie]
[chaals arrives]
14:08:48 [rhiaro]
tink: brings us back to the second part - shoud it be available if someone chooses not to fill it in
14:09:00 [chaals]
14:09:02 [koalie]
14:09:08 [koalie]
Amy: My instinct is: it shouldn't
14:09:23 [koalie]
... there are cases people might not be willing to share their pronouns widely
14:09:47 [koalie]
... if the field is not there at all, it may make some people more comfortable
14:09:58 [koalie]
14:10:05 [rhiaro]
tink: any other thoughts?
14:10:12 [tzviya]
+1 to rhiaro
14:10:22 [rhiaro]
... the next part is should the field, if it exists, be user editable
14:10:34 [chaals]
[IMHO absolutely should be user-editable]
14:10:39 [koalie]
14:10:46 [rhiaro]
... there is no widely available pronoun set
14:11:12 [tzviya]
14:11:16 [rhiaro]
koalie: yes, it should be user editable so we don't create discomfort by missing people
14:11:21 [rhiaro]
tink: i agree, this is a personal choice
14:11:52 [koalie]
14:12:06 [koalie]
Amy: in the pronouns@@ site, there's a starting point of a list
14:12:16 [rhiaro]
14:12:21 [koalie]
tink: good resource
14:12:28 [koalie]
... Ralph and Wendy asked for those
14:12:30 [koalie]
14:12:38 [rhiaro]
... do we know of any other resources?
14:13:10 [rhiaro]
... hearing none, this gives ralph and wendy a sense of where those of us on the call today are on this subject
14:13:15 [rhiaro]
koalie: yes I think that's helpful
14:13:42 [rhiaro]
TOPIC: What we think should happen with the BLM statement
14:14:09 [rhiaro]
tink: Recap - we worked on a statement, it was sent to the AC who consented for it to be published, but as the AC were reviewing it we also asked an external specialist, Kim Crayton, to review, who came back with very useful feedback
14:14:22 [rhiaro]
... brought it home to us ethat the statement as it stood did not perhaps do everything we hoped it would or send the messaged we hoped for
14:14:32 [rhiaro]
... this CG recommended that the statement wasnot published on behalf of w3c
14:14:40 [rhiaro]
... we now find ourselves at the point where we need to decide what to focus on next
14:14:53 [rhiaro]
jeff: a technicality - I don't think the AC approved the statement
14:15:07 [rhiaro]
... it went to review, there was one formal objection, the director was in the process of processing that objection
14:15:22 [rhiaro]
... the director might have overruled it, but while he was considering the issue we got the recommendation from Kim Crayton and pulled the statement back
14:15:33 [rhiaro]
tink: I had forgotten the objection.. it was a stressful time
14:15:46 [koalie]
[Wendy Reid arrives]
14:16:00 [rhiaro]
... The situation we find ourselves in at the moment (there is a github issue) - the option as I think of them are that we could edit the statement based on Kim's feedback
14:16:03 [wendyreid]
wendyreid has joined #idcg
14:16:05 [rhiaro]
... could go back ot the AC to look at it again
14:16:13 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:16:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
14:16:25 [rhiaro]
... one of the risks if we do that is that we as a group do not have any representation from any person of colour, for whom that statement is supposed to be support of
14:16:25 [wendyreid]
14:16:29 [rhiaro]
... that's a risk Kim pointed out
14:16:40 [rhiaro]
... it would be wrong of us to create a statement in support of a community of people that has no representation in this group
14:16:58 [rhiaro]
... An alternative we could decide is reediting is not where we want to focus our energies, and we could move forward with our todo list actions
14:17:06 [rhiaro]
... and send our support out to the web community by doing, and talking about what we've been doing
14:17:09 [rhiaro]
... there may be other possibilities
14:17:21 [koalie]
-> thread in public-idcg: Next steps with the BLM statement
14:17:37 [rhiaro]
judy: I would favour our working on actions and trying to become a more welcoming community group
14:17:52 [rhiaro]
... so we can be more welcoming in those in our own community who haven't yet joined this, and also reaching out to others outside the w3c space
14:18:16 [rhiaro]
... I'm starting to work with a consultant for some of the areas of work that are looking at intersection of race and disability. Early stages, but every area of w3c work could benefit from some of that
14:18:36 [rhiaro]
... one of the things I hope we hang onto if we do focus more on actions would be the themes from the message cos I think that those will continue to be useful
14:18:52 [rhiaro]
... as areas of subgoals, learning, messaging, outreach, creating welcoming environment, supporting participants, ...
14:19:00 [rhiaro]
... we also need to work on regaining our momentum as a CG
14:19:04 [rhiaro]
... that may include some focus on logistics
14:19:18 [rhiaro]
... getting really clear announcements of meetings and agendas, getting stuff queued up to talk about
14:19:31 [rhiaro]
... that's my hope, and happy to help as much as I can
14:19:48 [rhiaro]
... I don't know if there's discussion about the timing, but it conflicts with an obligation I have
14:19:59 [jeff]
+1 to Judy
14:20:15 [rhiaro]
tzviya: focussing on action items is important, but one of the things we talked about when were writing the statement is that one way of attracting people of colour to the community is to have a statement
14:20:21 [rhiaro]
... the earlier version of the statement was pretty robust, there was a lot of editing
14:20:35 [rhiaro]
... something i've noticed in looking at statements from people like the group p5 (who did great breakouts at tpac)
14:20:45 [tzviya]
14:21:00 [rhiaro]
... it's not necessarily an overt statement, but if you take a look at their community page, there's not a particular BLM statement, but in their page about themselves there's this list of stuff that they support and one of the things they mention is BLM
14:21:17 [rhiaro]
... I wonder if there's something we can do, maybe coming from w3c's page in general, talking about values that w3c support
14:21:29 [rhiaro]
... just making sure to be more inclusive in people of colour and these topics in general
14:21:41 [rhiaro]
... making sure in mentioning other values when we're talking about supporting organisations and social good and all of that
14:21:55 [rhiaro]
... as well as accessibility and privacy, but also BLM and particularly mentioning a phrase like BLM
14:22:29 [rhiaro]
wendyreid: I agree with everything tzviya just said, also like the p5js community statement
14:22:47 [rhiaro]
... in lieu of our .. I want us to publish a statement of some kind because as tzviya said we need to more obviously signal to the community that this is something we are concerned about
14:22:54 [rhiaro]
... we do want to be a more inclusive space, we want to welcome people from all backgrounds
14:23:00 [rhiaro]
... but I also think we need to do some action
14:23:10 [rhiaro]
... the statement maybe should be more inline with what p5 has done
14:23:21 [rhiaro]
... not just a one time blog post, something on the website, part of our comms and messaging, saying this is who we are now
14:23:26 [rhiaro]
... and not going to accept anything less than this
14:23:31 [rhiaro]
... I think that that might make a bigger statement
14:23:45 [rhiaro]
... we should probably get consultants from people like Kim and members in the community
14:23:55 [rhiaro]
... but we have to make it clear to members of our community that this is something we are concerned about
14:24:08 [rhiaro]
... there's nothing we can point to when people ask where w3c stands on social equity or something like that
14:24:15 [tzviya]
I was also really impressed with Kay Martinez
14:24:20 [rhiaro]
tink: you think it would be okay to make the statement part of the w3c messaging itself rather than a one of blog post?
14:24:21 [rhiaro]
wendyreid: yes
14:24:34 [rhiaro]
chaals: a couple of thoughts... I agree with judy and wendy and tzviya
14:24:37 [rhiaro]
... what we do is pretty important
14:24:52 [rhiaro]
... by and large i would like to focus on that if we're going to make a statement i'm not sure what the best way to do it is
14:25:00 [rhiaro]
... I personally tend to favour fairly short statements
14:25:19 [rhiaro]
... the reason is because .. I favour the idea that we make short statements, because we should be focussing on our actions and backing them up
14:25:44 [rhiaro]
... yes we would like to be a much more welcoming organisation, is important, the fact that this is a middle class white anglosphere gropu suggests we would like that but we're doing a really bad job of it
14:25:54 [rhiaro]
... and we desperately want help doing that better. probably worth saying that
14:26:12 [rhiaro]
tink: do you mean a short statement in line with what tzviya and wendy were talking about, or a separate blog post?
14:26:23 [rhiaro]
chaals: maybe as short as "black lives matter" on the top of the website
14:26:47 [rhiaro]
... there is a question of how you get.. are we taking on a position that w3c members agree with or that they disagree with and if we are the director should be consciously saying I'm going to make this statement and if you don't like it leave
14:26:52 [rhiaro]
+1 if you don't like it leave :)
14:27:09 [rhiaro]
jeff: I strongly agree with judy and chaals, emphasis on our actions
14:27:20 [rhiaro]
... also agree with tzviya and wendy's point of view that what we say is important
14:27:29 [rhiaro]
... I have a slight preference for the actions (speak louder than words)
14:27:31 [rhiaro]
... but both important
14:27:38 [rhiaro]
... we are long overdue for the values conversation
14:27:44 [rhiaro]
... it's happening in a number of places, at the AB to some extend
14:27:53 [rhiaro]
... and as part of the legal entity discussions and how we want to position the organisation for the future
14:27:58 [rhiaro]
... all of these are important directions
14:28:05 [rhiaro]
... there's a big question about venue
14:28:10 [rhiaro]
... I did want to express two cautions
14:28:16 [rhiaro]
... which go above and beyond what has been said
14:28:18 [chaals]
[Note that I am the person least likely to support the director makes a statement and says 'if you don't like it, leave". But it might be the reasonable thing to do…]
14:28:33 [rhiaro]
... the first is that we have to come to ground is whether we want to make a BLM statement at all
14:28:59 [rhiaro]
... when I was hearing tzviya talking about statements and p5 and so forth, I recall that one of Ki'ms critiques of our statement is that she characterised as it wasn't the black lives matter statement, it was an all lives matter statement
14:29:18 [rhiaro]
... we want to uplevel this to what are our values in general - if that becomes are focus we are also saying we are not going to have a BLM focus
14:29:23 [rhiaro]
... I don't see any way of avoiding Kim's critique
14:29:27 [rhiaro]
... it's suddenly about all of the values
14:29:36 [rhiaro]
... she wanted something focussed exclusively on Black lives
14:29:40 [rhiaro]
... we have to be conscious of that
14:29:50 [rhiaro]
... Also think our biggest problem as a CG is getting the membership involved
14:30:15 [rhiaro]
... any statement we make even if it's approved by the membership if there's no buyin and no passion and no action underneath it has the other thing that Kim critiqued
14:30:20 [rhiaro]
... what's going to be happening as a result?
14:30:26 [rhiaro]
... we have to find a way to get the AC actively involved
14:30:37 [rhiaro]
... if we had 5% of the AC, 20 AC members invovled with us, that would be a huge victory
14:30:42 [rhiaro]
... at the moment we're not a critical mass in our group
14:31:07 [rhiaro]
tink: as I understood it, Kim's feedback about not making the BLM statement into an All Lives Matter statement was said within the context of us publishing a statement about BLM
14:31:18 [rhiaro]
... tzviya was talking about a more general message about other things we support
14:31:28 [rhiaro]
... I don't think Kim was saing we shouldn't support a more general statement
14:31:36 [rhiaro]
... but if we were to make a BLM statement we should focus in on the one thing
14:31:49 [rhiaro]
tzviya: I was saying we should include something specific in a general statement of values
14:32:00 [rhiaro]
... I think Kim's concern was that our previous statement said "Black lives matter, but.."
14:32:11 [rhiaro]
tink: we should ask for input and feedback from Kim and others on how it might be perceived
14:32:16 [rhiaro]
jeff: I think I was misunderstood
14:32:34 [rhiaro]
... I agree Leonie that Kim would not object to our having a general values statement which talked about our general values and mentioned BLM as one of the things
14:32:42 [rhiaro]
... But she just wouldn't characterise that as a BLM statement
14:33:00 [rhiaro]
... my point was not to say we shouldn't have a general values statement - we should - but pointing out that it wouldn't qualify to be a BLM statement according to Kim's criteria
14:33:13 [rhiaro]
... if we put our energy into the general values statement, that's fine, but means we are taking off our immediate agenda our BLM statement
14:33:24 [rhiaro]
judy: my comment was about logistics and rebuilding momentum, i think that's well within our reach
14:33:46 [rhiaro]
... multiple people wanted to attend but the time change made it difficult
14:34:00 [rhiaro]
... What Jeff is focussing on is an important differentiation
14:34:13 [rhiaro]
wendyreid: Kim is not hear to speak for herself
14:34:24 [rhiaro]
... I'm really uncomfortable with people saying what Kim would say about what we're doing
14:34:41 [rhiaro]
... What tzviya and I are talking about is adding something to the w3c website that is inline with our mission statement
14:34:48 [rhiaro]
... there has been confusion in the past about the w3c mission statement
14:34:49 [koalie]
-> W3C website: W3C Mission
14:34:57 [rhiaro]
... this is a chance to reclarify it and reflect the modern values of w3c today
14:35:03 [rhiaro]
... this i think is very different from a BLM statement
14:35:08 [koalie]
in particular:
14:35:20 [rhiaro]
... the statemetn we were originally discussing was essentially going to be a one time blogpost/tweet that might invoke discussion or news coverage
14:35:28 [rhiaro]
... but it still would have been a one time thing, announcement wise
14:35:34 [rhiaro]
... we would reinforce it with actions, we still want to do that
14:35:47 [rhiaro]
... but one thing I took away from what Kim told us is that if we're doing the statemetn we have to be as impactful and short and to the point as possible
14:35:56 [rhiaro]
... we were driven into this awkward what-about-this kind of statement
14:36:13 [rhiaro]
... if we are to make a statement on top of what we do to change the mission statement or something like that, we should still be as short and to the point as possible
14:36:28 [rhiaro]
... internally we need to make these changes and perform these actions, and perform these actions before we make any sort of statement
14:36:31 [rhiaro]
... and we need help
14:36:43 [rhiaro]
... whether from the AC, and also consultancy
14:36:55 [rhiaro]
... there are many inclusion and diversity consultants out there
14:36:58 [rhiaro]
... we need professional help and buyin
14:37:07 [rhiaro]
... we're going in a slightly different direction, but we need to define that
14:37:12 [tzviya]
+1 wendyreid
14:37:20 [rhiaro]
tink: I apologies if I spoke on behalf of other people
14:37:45 [rhiaro]
... I'd like to finish off by doing a strawpoll on some simple questions so people who are not in the meeting can get a sense of how those of us who are here are thinking
14:38:04 [rhiaro]
PROPOSAL: we edit the blm statement in response to Kim's feedback
14:38:06 [tzviya]
14:38:12 [tink]
14:38:19 [chaals]
14:38:21 [rhiaro]
14:38:22 [wendyreid]
14:38:24 [jeff]
14:38:47 [koalie]
14:38:51 [tink]
14:38:51 [rhiaro]
PROPOSAL: we explore the idea of messaging along the lines of p5js
14:39:04 [wendyreid]
14:39:09 [koalie]
14:39:12 [tzviya]
14:39:12 [rhiaro]
14:39:23 [koalie]
Judy: 0
14:39:36 [rhiaro]
PROPOSAL: we focus energies on actions that we have
14:39:38 [tink]
14:39:39 [wendyreid]
14:39:39 [chaals]
14:39:39 [tzviya]
14:39:40 [jeff]
14:39:40 [rhiaro]
14:39:41 [koalie]
Judy: +1
14:39:43 [koalie]