15:46:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
15:46:29 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/11/13-pbgsc-irc
15:46:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:46:33 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:46:36 <Ralph> chair: Ralph
15:47:19 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2020Nov/0002.html
15:47:32 <Ralph> regrets: Daihei
15:48:15 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/2020/10/30-pbgsc-minutes previous 30-Oct
15:48:39 <Ralph> agenda+ EPUBCheck fundraising letter
15:48:49 <Ralph> agenda+ How are our three new groups doing?
15:48:57 <Ralph> agenda+ Open discussion
15:55:12 <tzviya> regrets+
15:55:54 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:56:36 <Ralph> present+ George, Ralph
15:56:54 <dauwhe> present+
15:57:14 <Ralph> present+ Avneesh
15:57:28 <George> present+
15:58:00 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pbgsc
15:59:46 <Ralph> present+ Ivan, Liisa
15:59:59 <Avneesh> present+
16:00:20 <Ralph> regrets+ Wendy
16:00:45 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
16:00:50 <liisamk> present+
16:00:50 <Ralph> zakim, next item
16:00:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "EPUBCheck fundraising letter" taken up [from Ralph]
16:01:06 <Ralph> present+ Bill
16:01:17 <Ralph> George: do we know if Tzviya has sent it?
16:01:27 <Ralph> Ralph: I think she would have told us if she had
16:02:01 <Ralph> George: can we ask her to circulate it with the minor end-of-year change?
16:02:08 <Ralph> ... she doesn't have to be the only one to send it
16:02:31 <Ralph> ... one of us could send it with a statement "please circulate broadly"
16:02:39 <Ralph> ... send to the BG, CG, and WG list
16:02:46 <Ralph> ... I don't think I should be the one to send it
16:02:59 <Ralph> ... as Daisy is the recipient of the funding
16:03:13 <Ralph> Liisa: I could send it
16:03:21 <Ralph> ... I'd remove the word "just"
16:03:34 <Ralph> George: sure
16:03:47 <Garth> Garth has joined #pbgsc
16:03:55 <Ralph> Liisa: I'll send it Monday so it doesn't get buried
16:03:58 <Garth> present+ Garth
16:04:19 <Ralph> Garth: I'm doing my part internally
16:04:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
16:04:38 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:04:56 <Ralph> present+ Cristina
16:05:19 <Ralph> George: once Liisa sends it to the W3C lists, maybe BISG would circulate it too?
16:05:21 <Ralph> Bill: sure
16:05:33 <Ralph> George: any other publishing lists?
16:05:57 <Ralph> Bill: two questions: what organizations would be appropriate and what vehicle to reach those organizations
16:06:05 <liisamk> q+
16:06:51 <Ralph> ... for an organization like SSP, it's less obvious;  many are journal-only in STM and don't use EPUBcheck much
16:07:08 <Ralph> ... this isn't exactly a commercial appeal
16:07:34 <Ralph> ... I wouldn't see IPTC picking up on it
16:07:42 <Ralph> Ivan: a list for ONYX folk?
16:07:59 <Ralph> Bill: that would be Editeur; I could send it to Graham Bell
16:08:26 <Ralph> ... BIC is UK, BISG-like but I don't have a particularly good contact there
16:08:48 <Ralph> ... there are book organizations in most countries
16:09:07 <Ralph> Ivan: we could ask Laurent to circulate to the French community
16:09:10 <Ralph> Bill: I
16:09:34 <Ralph> Bill: I'll include Luck; he's still consulting in several committees
16:09:42 <Avneesh> q+ to comment on Luc status
16:09:45 <Ralph> Cristina: I'll circulate it
16:10:42 <Ralph> Liisa: what do you think about adding a couple of sentences to make a second paragraph describing what's been done
16:10:49 <Ralph> ... to turn it into something that's newsletter-friendly
16:10:53 <Ralph> Bill: good suggestion
16:11:07 <Ralph> Ivan: and ask Daihei to do the same for Japan
16:11:09 <Zakim> Avneesh, you wanted to comment on Luc status
16:11:29 <Ralph> Avneesh: Luc is still in EPUBCheck management, so it's good to keep him in the loop
16:11:46 <Ralph> Bill: InclusivePublishing.org too
16:11:52 <Ralph> George: sure; I can get it to them
16:12:26 <Ralph> ... I'd love to see many small gifts; more grassrootsy
16:12:43 <Ralph> ... there will be a need for continued maintenance
16:13:08 <Ralph> Bill: this underscores Liisa's propsal to remove "just"
16:13:39 <Ralph> ... get this on the conscious of others; there's work and costs associated with this and we're actively working on it
16:15:28 <Ralph> Ralph: thanks, Bill; if you want to solicit any feedback from us, please don't wait too long for it
16:15:45 <Ralph> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2020Nov/0001.html draft
16:16:15 <Ralph> zakim, next item
16:16:15 <Zakim> agendum 2. "How are our three new groups doing?" taken up [from Ralph]
16:16:33 <Bill_Kasdorf_> Bill_Kasdorf_ has joined #pbgsc
16:17:11 <Ralph> Ralph: any comments on the CG relaunch?
16:17:22 <Ralph> ... Thanks, Avneesh, for resuming the A11Y TF
16:17:34 <Ralph> Avneesh: yes; that work was going on in the EPUB CG too
16:17:49 <Ralph> ... ways to help people know what books are accessible to download
16:18:09 <Ralph> ... also looking at mapping a11y metadata, starting with schema.org and looking at ONYX
16:18:18 <Ralph> ... we expect a first report to be published this year
16:18:27 <Ralph> ... the work will continue; we have to harmonize with ONYX
16:18:34 <Ralph> ... we've also discussed harmonizing MARC21
16:18:46 <Ralph> ... we want to talk with IFLA
16:19:45 <ivan> q+
16:20:28 <Ralph> Ralph: the Audiobook WG call for participation just went out
16:20:58 <Ralph> Ivan: and of course the Audiobook Recommendation and Publication Manifest Recommendations were published this week
16:21:05 <Ralph> ... it would be nice to have more publicity about them
16:21:53 <Ralph> ... perhaps a blog post
16:23:11 <Ralph> .., the Audiobook WG doesn't plan to have meetings; we'll see what issues and errata come in and schedule meetings as necessary
16:23:35 <Ralph> ... as part of the review we did get a number of comments from organizations saying they planned to use the technology
16:23:51 <Ralph> ... so we should see more announcements eventually
16:24:07 <Ralph> Dave: I heard there were comments about the packaging aspects
16:24:45 <Ralph> ... related to existing players in the audiobook distribution
16:24:56 <Ralph> Bill: a focus on retailers, right?
16:24:58 <Ralph> Dave: yeah
16:25:14 <Ralph> Liisa: this points to a lot of concerns in the market about audiobooks generally; they can be quite large
16:26:35 <Ralph> ... the distribution partners need to update
16:27:16 <Ralph> Garth: it would be interesting to have a conversation about the needs; note that there does not have to be just one track per chapter
16:28:28 <Ralph> ... a good answer is that this brings a standard way to distribute a ToC
16:29:18 <Ralph> -> https://www.w3.org/groups/wg/publishing Audiobooks Working Group
16:29:30 <Ralph> Garth: do the Publishing WG participants have to rejoin?
16:29:49 <Ralph> Ivan: yes, due to the Patent Policy update
16:30:04 <Ralph> ... and they have 45 days to do that
16:30:15 <ivan> Audiobooks spec in EPUB 3.2: https://www.w3.org/publishing/groups/publ-wg/assets/publications/manifest_audiobooks.epub
16:30:36 <Ralph> Ivan: the Audiobook spec is now also available in EPUB 3.2 format ^^
16:33:09 <Ralph> Ralph: EPUB 3 WG ?
16:33:17 <Ralph> Dave: we had the Asian-time meeting last night
16:33:39 <Ralph> ... the participants in that meeting agreed to move to Patent Policy 2020 after Florian explained it
16:33:55 <Ralph> ... given the multiple specs we're working on, the PP 2020 seemed a better fit
16:34:25 <Ralph> ... Matt has done a massive amount of editorial restructuring
16:34:31 <Ralph> ... he doing the work of Hercules
16:34:51 <Ralph> ... we are slowly attacking a bunch of the issues that have been haunting us for a while: spine order vs. nav order
16:35:09 <Ralph> ... we've come to consensus around some of the weird issues around external entities
16:35:15 <Ralph> ... we're chipping away on the issues
16:35:43 <Ralph> ... I see a way forward on the various epub- CSS options
16:36:01 <Ralph> ... we need to round up people to talk about testing
16:36:25 <Ralph> ... following up from the discussion at the virtual F2F
16:36:29 <George> q+
16:37:03 <Ralph> George: having Avneesh drive the CG TF and in the WG seems good
16:37:12 <Ralph> ... he has a small group to get the work done
16:37:24 <Ralph> ... are we seeing the same kind of TF leads in other areas?
16:38:13 <Ralph> Ivan: the most urgent will be to find someone to lead the testing work
16:38:18 <Ralph> Dave: +1
16:38:44 <Ralph> Ivan: testing is one of the two main jobs of the WG
16:39:30 <Ralph> Ralph: do we know what community we can recruit within?
16:39:42 <Ralph> Dave: the most logical community would be someone who likely works for a reading system
16:40:00 <Ralph> ... someone familiar with software testing
16:40:52 <Avneesh> q+
16:41:29 <Ralph> Avneesh: there's a huge community around EDRLab
16:41:43 <George> q+
16:42:30 <Ralph> George: we have some non-profit companies; could we do fundraising to develop a test harness that EDRLab might run?
16:42:59 <Ralph> s/companies/companies looking for income
16:43:29 <dauwhe> q+
16:43:41 <Ralph> ... everybody needs it; how do we share?
16:44:10 <Ralph> Dave: this is frustrating; WebPlatformTests does not seem to be struggling for funding
16:45:38 <Ralph> Liisa: it's going to be a hard sell for publishers to fund test development
16:46:01 <Bill_Kasdorf_> q+
16:46:30 <Ralph> ... it's hard to explain how testing is going to get us beyond the current state of lowest common denominator
16:46:55 <Ralph> Bill: it's hard to get people to understand that things that are free don't cost anything
16:47:39 <George> q+
16:48:02 <Ralph> George: perhaps a GoFundMe page?
16:48:23 <Ralph> Dave: Igalia has been experimenting with a similar model for building features in web browsers
16:48:50 <Ralph> ... it's proved to be slow going so far
16:49:31 <Bill_Kasdorf_> s/things that are free don't cost anything/things that they can use for free cost something to create and maintain/
16:49:49 <Ralph> ... the general idea is to get web developers were to kick in $5 to work on things that would make life easier for them
16:50:45 <Ralph> George: maybe we need to adopt some non-profit fundraising practices
16:50:50 <Avneesh> q+
16:51:09 <dauwhe> q+
16:51:41 <Ralph> Avneesh: this is a complex target when it comes to core standards and technical work
16:51:47 <Ralph> s/target/subject
16:52:39 <Ralph> ... it's easier to talk about tools than about improving the spec
16:52:55 <Ralph> ... when there's a practical thing people can see it's easier to get money
16:53:33 <Ralph> ... we should look beyond publishers; there are instituions that fund other work
16:53:49 <Ralph> ... highlighting the aspect of accessibility makes this easier
16:53:57 <Bill_Kasdorf_> q+
16:54:22 <Ralph> Dave: sounds like we need a foundation to do fundraising and apply for grants
16:54:57 <Ralph> ... we've been stuck trying to do all these things with no resources
16:55:03 <Ralph> Bill: good ideas
16:55:19 <Ralph> ... an alternative way that I don't like is to sell advertising on things
16:55:55 <ivan> q+
16:56:00 <Ralph> ... more seriously, the conversion and prepress vendors are the ones who should be contributing
16:56:16 <dauwhe> q+ to talk about the financial situation of prepress vendors
16:57:40 <Ralph> Garth: advertising works because billions of people see it
16:58:43 <Ralph> ... I agree that EPUBCheck is the lifeblood for the conversion houses
16:58:59 <Zakim> dauwhe, you wanted to talk about the financial situation of prepress vendors
16:59:49 <Ralph> Dave: I'm not sure that conversion houses have a lot of money
16:59:59 <Ralph> Ivan: EPUBcheck and EPUB 3 testing are not the same
17:00:25 <Ralph> ... for the latter the issue is to develop a testing environment in a way that can be also used as a testing environment for reading systems
17:00:25 <liisamk> I have to run. Thanks everyone!
17:01:00 <Ralph> ... we should try to get together all the reading systems around us to discuss how to frame this in a way that will be useful to them as well
17:01:10 <Ralph> ... then it may become easier to get funding
17:01:26 <George> q+
17:02:11 <Ralph> Ralph: +1, Ivan
17:02:32 <Ralph> George: the Steering Committee needs to act on this
17:02:54 <Ralph> ... we need to put together a plan to raise money
17:03:24 <Ralph> ... for the broader activity
17:03:30 <Ralph> ... I'd not want to think small
17:04:18 <Ralph> [adjourned]
17:04:24 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
17:04:24 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been George, Ralph, dauwhe, Avneesh, Ivan, Liisa, liisamk, Bill, Garth, Bill_Kasdorf, Cristina
17:04:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/11/13-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
17:04:29 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:04:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
17:35:58 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:35:58 <RRSAgent> I see no action items