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14:47:10 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/11/12-epub-a11y-irc
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14:48:01 <Avneesh> zakim, this will be epub-a11y
14:48:02 <Zakim> ok, Avneesh
14:48:38 <Avneesh> present+
14:48:51 <Avneesh> Chair: Avneesh
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15:03:25 <MattChan_> scribe+
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15:03:45 <MattChan_> Avneesh: welcome to the first meeting of the a11y taskforce
15:04:05 <BenSchroeter> present+
15:04:09 <MattChan_> ... focus of our call is to figure out work items
15:04:27 <BenSchroeter> can't access the zoom link in the invite. is there another to try?
15:04:33 <MattChan_> ... exciting to finally be moving to the next version of the spec
15:04:51 <MattChan_> ... the spec should go to CR in nov 2021
15:04:57 <MattChan_> ... FPWD should be in Feb 2021
15:05:10 <CharlesL> present+
15:05:28 <MattChan_> ... today let's just discuss what we want to cover in this roughly 1 year, which are must items, and which are nice-to-have
15:05:59 <MattChan_> ... i thought we might have these calls every 2 weeks
15:06:18 <gpellegrino> +1
15:06:24 <MattChan_> ... this golden time slot is so popular, it might be hard to increase the frequency of calls to every week
15:06:32 <MattChan_> ... we can revisit this later, if necessary
15:06:45 <marisa> marisa has joined #epub-a11y
15:07:04 <MattChan_> ... also, should we have a separate issue tracker for a11y? We will keep the same issue tracker as the epub spec wg for now
15:07:14 <Avneesh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/
15:07:26 <MattChan_> George: will there be a specific label for the a11y issues?
15:07:28 <MattChan_> Avneesh: yes
15:08:00 <MattChan_> ... Q about japanese environment? Do we need a separate group for Japanese environment?
15:08:07 <marisa> present+
15:08:34 <Avneesh> q?
15:08:38 <MattChan_> Daihei: You can coordinate with me, and then we can have a separate call
15:09:01 <MattChan_> Avneesh: Topic: Overview of Work Items
15:09:34 <MattChan_> ... highest level priority, align spec with EU Accessibility Directive
15:09:41 <Avneesh> https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2019/882/oj?eliuri=eli:dir:2019:882:oj
15:09:51 <MattChan_> ... we already align with them, but there may be a need for some clarifying language
15:10:15 <MattChan_> ... a link is provided, please have specific notice of section 3 and 4 in the document linked
15:10:16 <Avneesh> q?
15:10:25 <gpellegrino> fine for me
15:10:32 <MattChan_> ... obviously this is one of the work items
15:10:45 <MattChan_> ... second item, maintaining the reading order in the nav document?
15:11:17 <MattChan_> ... in epub 3.3 spec, there is no requirement that content should be aligned with the nav
15:11:23 <Avneesh> q?
15:12:37 <Avneesh> q?
15:12:46 <MattChan_> ... perhaps we should make this a requirement of the a11y spec
15:13:00 <MattChan_> ... another big piece is alignment with WCAG 2.1 and perhaps 2.2
15:13:19 <MattChan_> ... discussion with Matt G, about different ways to do this
15:13:32 <gpellegrino> q+
15:13:36 <Avneesh> q?
15:13:53 <CharlesL> q+
15:14:19 <MattChan_> gpellegrino: should we check what the WCAG requirements imply for epub?
15:14:53 <mgarrish> q+
15:15:02 <MattChan_> Avneesh: yes, WCAG can be quite abstract, but this will be covered techniques document
15:15:27 <MattChan_> CharlesL: about the EU directive... will they have any requirements about which version of WCAG will be required?
15:15:59 <MattChan_> Avneesh: EU directive is only about functional requirements, they don't specify a specific version of WCAG
15:16:37 <George> q+
15:16:44 <Avneesh> ack matt
15:17:01 <Avneesh> ack next
15:17:06 <MattChan_> ... my understanding is that it will be preferable to align with 2.1, because if W3 makes any recommendations to EU, they will be referring to 2.1
15:17:11 <Avneesh> ack next
15:17:25 <Avneesh> ack next
15:17:50 <MattChan_> mgarrish: even if we formally accept one version, there will be a benefit to allowing implementers some flexibility
15:17:50 <Avneesh> ack next
15:18:27 <Avneesh> q?
15:19:07 <Avneesh> q?
15:19:11 <MattChan_> Avneesh: next item, URLs that point to IDPF website should be redirect to W3 website
15:19:11 <gpellegrino> +1
15:19:13 <CharlesL> +1
15:19:46 <MattChan_> ... next item, 2016 version of spec relaxed extended desc and long desc for images
15:19:55 <CharlesL> q+
15:20:03 <MattChan_> ... we compromised: alt-text would be sufficient even for complex images
15:20:14 <George> q+
15:20:21 <MattChan_> ... we can change this now, to better align with WCAG
15:20:22 <Avneesh> q?
15:20:31 <Avneesh> ack next
15:20:57 <MattChan_> CharlesL: Agreed. In global certified accessible, we see that a lot more publishers are putting extended desc and long desc into their books
15:21:12 <MattChan_> ... its become a requirement for our certification
15:21:24 <Avneesh> ack next
15:21:53 <mgarrish> q+
15:22:08 <MattChan_> George: This seems to be very prevalent among higher ed, where books might have 100+ such complex images
15:22:11 <Avneesh> ack next
15:22:29 <MattChan_> ... should should try to balance this so that we don't go overboard with making such publishers do lots of work
15:22:57 <Avneesh> q?
15:23:03 <George> +1 to what Matt said
15:23:31 <MattChan_> Avneesh: next topic: epub:type for semantics vs aria-roles
15:23:42 <CharlesL> q+
15:23:49 <Avneesh> q?
15:23:52 <MattChan_> ... should we deprecate use of epub:type and move completely to aria-roles
15:23:58 <Avneesh> ack next
15:24:45 <MattChan_> CharlesL: with global certified accessible, we originally required both, but after consultation, we realized that epub:type wasn't really used for a11y, more for production workflow
15:24:57 <Avneesh> q?
15:25:13 <MattChan_> ... so i'm in favor of not requiring epub:type, but publishers can still have it if they want
15:25:48 <Avneesh> q?
15:26:11 <CharlesL> q+
15:26:12 <MattChan_> Avneesh: topic, multiple certifiercredentials, accessibility API, accessibility controls
15:26:41 <MattChan_> topic, outdated links in techniques document
15:26:43 <gpellegrino> q+
15:26:56 <Avneesh> ack next
15:26:57 <MattChan_> there are also outdated links to IDPF forum, which is now gone
15:27:37 <MattChan_> CharlesL: re. a11y metadata, some of these metadata elements are confusing publishers
15:27:50 <Avneesh> ack next
15:27:55 <MattChan_> ... i'm in favor of not requiring these
15:28:20 <MattChan_> gpellegrino: right now spec requires Schema inside the epub, but maybe we can just refer to ONIX instead
15:29:05 <MattChan_> ... re. mapping between aria and epub:type, more work needs to be done?
15:29:22 <MattChan_> Avneesh: we can keep the mapping as part of the role of the community group
15:29:24 <Avneesh> q?
15:30:26 <Avneesh> q?
15:30:26 <MattChan_> Avneesh: last item, revisit overlap with media-overlay spec. Do we want to add some requirements in this section?
15:30:37 <MattChan_> ... right now we don't have this as a very high priority work item
15:30:38 <George> q+
15:30:52 <Avneesh> ack next
15:30:57 <MattChan_> ... or perhaps we can take up this specific item later?
15:31:18 <mgarrish> q+
15:31:21 <MattChan_> George: there are implementations of MO books that are fixed-layout only. This is pretty common.
15:31:54 <Avneesh> q?
15:31:57 <MattChan_> ... i wonder if there are ways to indicate that even if the audio doesn't play, the epub should still be readable for people with disabilities
15:32:23 <Avneesh> ack next
15:33:06 <MattChan_> mgarrish: a lot of work in the MO section will hinge on implementation, on the actual content that is being produced
15:33:07 <marisa> q+
15:33:20 <Avneesh> q?
15:33:33 <Avneesh> ack next
15:33:35 <MattChan_> Avneesh: I think we can make add a comment in the spec to address george's concern
15:34:02 <Avneesh> q?
15:34:03 <MattChan_> marisa: right now epub:type MAY be attached to MO elements, this is what drives the skipability-feature
15:34:03 <CharlesL> q+
15:34:17 <CharlesL> q-
15:34:19 <MattChan_> ... if we're requiring skipability then we'll have to revisit this
15:34:24 <Avneesh> q?
15:34:31 <MattChan_> Avneesh: okay, are we missing any other work items?
15:34:38 <George> q+
15:34:45 <MattChan_> ... no? Then it looks like everyone is happy with the plan.
15:34:56 <marisa> s/if we're requiring skipability/if we're changing epub:type to role
15:35:05 <George> q+
15:35:08 <Avneesh> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/a11y/index.html
15:35:17 <Avneesh> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/a11y-tech/index.html
15:35:31 <Avneesh> ack next
15:35:57 <MattChan_> George: about the division of labor between the cg and the wg... e.g. getting support of dpub aria roles
15:36:06 <Avneesh> q?
15:36:14 <MattChan_> ... this feels more like a cg job
15:36:16 <CharlesL> q+
15:36:37 <MattChan_> Avneesh: the wg's timeline is very short, we should focus on improving the spec
15:36:45 <MattChan_> ... other things can be delegated
15:36:59 <Avneesh> q?
15:37:12 <Avneesh> ack next
15:37:35 <marisa> q+
15:37:48 <mgarrish> q+
15:38:06 <Avneesh> ack next
15:38:28 <MattChan_> CharlesL: re. deprecating epub:type, 1. do we need to improve roles to allow skipability, and 2. do we need to consult with publishers who are right now using epub:type for skipability?
15:38:39 <Avneesh> ack next
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15:38:57 <Cristina> present+
15:39:09 <MattChan_> Avneesh: roles already allow skipabilty/escapability
15:39:26 <Avneesh> q?
15:39:57 <George> q+
15:40:00 <marisa> q+
15:40:02 <MattChan_> mgarrish: we want to be careful where we touch upon the MO spec, we might even just want to leave references to epub:type for this section
15:40:09 <Avneesh> ack next
15:41:19 <MattChan_> George: read aloud could benefit from these clarifications to enriched skipability/escapability, which is another point towards moving towards aria roles
15:41:44 <Avneesh> ack next
15:42:22 <MattChan_> marisa: in the updating updates to MO, we are very much relying upon aria roles
15:42:33 <Avneesh> q?
15:42:53 <Avneesh> q?
15:43:25 <George> q+
15:43:33 <MattChan_> s/updating updates/future updates
15:43:39 <Avneesh> ack next
15:45:06 <MattChan_> George: we should also thinking about a11y aspects of video, time permitting
15:45:28 <MattChan_> Avneesh: i think these things are mainly covered by WCAG
15:45:38 <mgarrish> q+
15:46:08 <Avneesh> ack next
15:46:17 <MattChan_> ... because our time is short, we should limit our scope to updating what is in the spec
15:46:53 <MattChan_> mgarrish: agreed that this is more an issue for the cg, or best practices document
15:46:55 <Avneesh> q?
15:47:41 <MattChan_> Avneesh: re. alignment to EU accessibility directive. We should go through the directive requirements and see that our spec meets all those requirements
15:47:58 <MattChan_> ... will Cristina take over this responsibility?
15:48:00 <George> q+
15:48:02 <Avneesh> q?
15:48:14 <MattChan_> Cristina: okay, yes
15:48:42 <MattChan_> Avneesh: I will get in touch with you early next week about this
15:48:43 <Avneesh> ack next
15:49:20 <MattChan_> George: So in this work item, we are identifying incongruencies between our spec and EU directive?
15:49:23 <MattChan_> Avneesh: yes, exactly
15:50:14 <MattChan_> George: Are we going to publish guidance on how our spec differs from the EU directive in the future?
15:50:25 <MattChan_> Avneesh: This is probably not within our scope
15:50:49 <MattChan_> Cristina: Are there any US-based requirements that we should also check, while we checking the EU directive?
15:51:23 <MattChan_> ... as the spec would apply to everyone, this would be useful to know
15:51:28 <MattChan_> Avneesh: sure
15:51:52 <MattChan_> ... next, alignment between nav and content, I'll open an issue about this and we can discuss there
15:52:04 <Avneesh> q?
15:52:19 <MattChan_> ... and re. WCAG versions, we can continue to discuss this in future meetings
15:52:26 <George> q+
15:52:39 <Avneesh> ack next
15:52:53 <MattChan_> George: So to clarify, our meetings will be every other week, at this time?
15:53:12 <MattChan_> Avneesh: yes, and maybe we'll revisit this meeting schedule after a couple of months
15:53:26 <MattChan_> okay, thanks for coming everyone!
15:53:39 <MattChan_> Zakim, end meeting
15:53:39 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Avneesh, gpellegrino, MattChan_, mgarrish, Daihei, jyoshii, George, juliette_, BenSchroeter, CharlesL, marisa, Cristina
15:53:42 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:53:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/11/12-epub-a11y-minutes.html Zakim
15:53:44 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, MattChan_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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