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14:53:21 <tzviya> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
14:53:28 <tzviya> Date: 2020-10-30
14:53:35 <tzviya> Chair: Tzviya
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15:00:17 <Ralph> present+ George, Cristina, Ralph
15:00:42 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
15:01:32 <Ralph> present+ Liisa, Tzviya, Bill, Daihei, Junichi, Avneesh
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15:02:10 <liisamk> present+
15:02:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
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15:02:20 <tzviya> agenda+ EPUBCheck fundraising
15:02:34 <Avneesh> present+
15:02:43 <George> present+
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15:02:53 <Daihei> present+
15:02:59 <Cristina> present+
15:03:04 <tzviya> agenda+ TPAC debreif
15:04:06 <Ralph> scribe+
15:04:23 <jyoshii> PRESENT+
15:04:39 <Ralph> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishing-sc/2020Oct/0022.html
15:04:49 <Ralph> zakim, who's on the call?
15:04:49 <Zakim> Present: George, Cristina, Ralph, Liisa, Tzviya, Bill, Daihei, Junichi, Avneesh, liisamk, Bill_Kasdorf, jyoshii
15:04:54 <Ralph> present+ Ivan
15:05:34 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:05:34 <Zakim> agendum 1. "EPUBCheck fundraising" taken up [from tzviya]
15:05:52 <Ralph> George: there's about $10k we still need to raise to meet the financial commitments for next year
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15:06:06 <Ralph> present+ Garth
15:06:07 <tzviya> present+
15:06:24 <Ralph> ... some companies may have money left in their budget before the year end
15:06:31 <Ralph> ... can we take advantage of that?
15:06:38 <Ralph> Tzviya: what this can accomplish ...
15:06:42 <zhengxu> zhengxu has joined #pbgsc
15:06:45 <Ralph> ... we mapped this out in the EPUBcheck roadmap
15:06:57 <zhengxu> present+
15:07:02 <Ralph> ... the part that will make it easier for others to contribute to EPUBcheck
15:07:23 <Ralph> ... EPUBcheck is in a good state but currently only the developers are able to contribute
15:07:40 <Ralph> ... the $10k will make it easier for others to contribute in the future
15:07:57 <Ralph> Garth: where can I find something written up?
15:08:25 <Ralph> Tzviya: I'll dig up the old documentation
15:08:25 <George> q+
15:08:31 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/blog/2018/10/epubcheck-fundraising/
15:08:34 <tzviya> ack George
15:08:50 <Ralph> George: maybe we could write something that could be sent to the list also
15:09:02 <Ralph> Tzviya: good idea; I'll add that to my list
15:09:13 <Ralph> s/list/to-do list
15:09:20 <Ralph> ... happy for someone else to  help with that
15:09:31 <Ralph> zakim, next item
15:09:31 <Zakim> agendum 2. "TPAC debreif" taken up [from tzviya]
15:10:25 <Ralph> s/reif/rief
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15:10:32 <dauwhe> q+
15:10:37 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
15:11:14 <Ralph> Dave: I feel a disconnect between what happes in teleconferences and what happens in GitHub
15:11:32 <Ralph> ... I feel we're not truly able to make technical decisions in conference calls because important voices are not on the calls
15:11:44 <Ralph> ... this particularly impacted the recent EPUB 3 WG calls
15:11:55 <Ralph> ... in GitHub it's the same voices who have been commenting for decades
15:12:07 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure what to do about this
15:12:22 <Ralph> ... how to get things to move forward
15:12:29 <Garth> q+
15:12:36 <tzviya> ack Garth
15:12:46 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure what to do, but it's an issue
15:12:56 <Ralph> Garth: one thing that falls into that category is external entities
15:13:10 <Ralph> ... the GitHub discussion does seem to be coalescibng around what was said in the calls
15:13:24 <George> q+
15:13:27 <Ralph> Dave: I see that as a symptom; a particularly clear example, but it's not the only one
15:13:43 <Ralph> ...in a broader sense, I'm wondering about the goals of the WG
15:14:03 <Ralph> ... it feels like some of what's happening is that we're focusing on the spec in a very technical way
15:14:10 <tzviya> q+ to talk about growing pains
15:14:14 <Ralph> ... which to me feels a little removed from the needs of end users and the community
15:14:27 <Ralph> ... this maybe boils down to a question of participation
15:14:38 <Ralph> ... and where we're getting input and feedback
15:15:06 <Ralph> ... if an outsider were observing the WG right now, they'd be wondering how it affects them as an author or publisher
15:15:13 <tzviya> ack George
15:15:15 <Ralph> ... deep details of XML processing models
15:15:27 <Ralph> George: that thread was painful
15:15:40 <Ralph> ... I doubt there's many people who could actually follow and digest it
15:16:05 <Ralph> ... for something like this if we could get a short summary and the decision we made, that would help people
15:16:08 <ivan> q+
15:16:15 <Ralph> ... it was a very detailed thread and hard to follow
15:16:29 <Ralph> Dave: there's a user-facing question here
15:16:34 <Ralph> ... Ivan identified it early
15:16:48 <Avneesh> q+
15:16:51 <Ralph> ... if a tool puts a DTD in an EPUB and EPUBcheck rejects  it
15:16:57 <Ralph> ... that's not friendly
15:17:08 <Ralph> ... why should we care what the DTD says?
15:17:38 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about growing pains
15:17:50 <Ralph> Tzviya: it's an important question how to sync the WG telecons with GitHub
15:18:08 <Ralph> ... summarizing the issue as George suggests is a tremendous amount of work and doesn't have enough benefit
15:18:33 <Ralph> ... at some point we'll have to say that the conversation needs to happen in a different way
15:18:47 <Ralph> ... maybe we can help manage the conversation a bit better
15:19:25 <Ralph> ... in terms of how that coordinates with meetings, maybe the chairs can help by using what the charter says the WG should be doing
15:19:29 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:19:31 <Ralph> ... set some milestones
15:19:56 <Ralph> Ivan: the problem is that it's sometimes difficult to avoid getting into these kinds of discussions
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15:20:10 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:20:16 <Ralph> ... the issue I hit did get into a complicated technical issue
15:20:21 <Cristina> present+
15:20:26 <George> q+
15:20:28 <Ralph> ... it is converging, so I hope we'll be able to close it
15:20:42 <Ralph> ... when these situations arise we don't know how to avoid it
15:21:13 <Ralph> ... if we were able to shut in a room the 5 people who want to discuss this, maybe they could solve it separately
15:21:27 <Ralph> ... perhaps ad-hoc teleconferences are something we should do systematically
15:21:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
15:21:41 <Garth> q?
15:21:44 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Ivan--that's what I was on the queue to suggest
15:21:54 <Ralph> ... the WG charter is to clean up the document; make it more readable, create tests
15:22:11 <zhengxu> q+
15:22:14 <Ralph> ... last week I read through the whole spec and raised many issues; some trivial, some less trivial
15:22:49 <Ralph> ... I don't know how to solve the difference between GitHub discussions and WG calls
15:22:58 <Ralph> ... most of the detailed work happens in GitHub
15:23:19 <tzviya> ack Avneesh
15:23:48 <Ralph> Avneesh: I feel there's a deeper issue
15:24:21 <Ralph> ... W3C's organizational needs vs. the community's needs
15:24:55 <Ralph> ... we can encourage technical discussion in the CG
15:25:01 <tzviya> ack George
15:25:26 <tzviya> +1 Avneesh
15:25:43 <Ralph> George: it's great that we have Ivan and Matt to work on the document in such detail
15:26:13 <Ralph> ... there was an ask for a document that laid out the importance of reading; I had to roll my eyes and wonder how often we have to redo the same thing
15:26:26 <Ralph> ... I wonder if there's a connection with the affordances document that we've written
15:26:46 <Ralph> ... so the functionality and affordances that a RS brings can connect the CG with the WG
15:26:57 <tzviya> ack zhengxu
15:27:03 <Ralph> ... so the WG has to make sure all the plumbing is there to allow these systems to work together
15:27:14 <Garth> q?
15:27:19 <Ralph> Zheng: the spec needs to be precise and not have conflicts
15:27:36 <Ralph> ... we need a deep discussion about expertise
15:27:50 <Ralph> ... the WG needs to be more specific about the spec
15:28:13 <Ralph> ... many people use Java but how many really read the Java spec?  not many -- only those who implement the language
15:28:24 <Ralph> ... how to present the spec to end users?
15:28:43 <Ralph> ... some people who use the spec to define -- the EPUBcheck community
15:28:57 <Ralph> ... if the spec has conflicts, it's difficult for the community to resolve
15:29:11 <Ralph> ... it's important to have a good deep discussion on the spec itself
15:29:38 <Ralph> ... in the meetings it's important, even if we can't solve the specific problem, it's useful to use the time to figure out the approach to resolve it
15:30:09 <Ralph> ... as an example, last week during TPAC, the discussion about EPUB tests was good
15:30:19 <Ralph> ... we can build ideas about how we'll approach that
15:30:26 <tzviya> ack Ralph
15:30:26 <Zakim> Ralph, you wanted to ask about triage
15:30:30 <Ralph> Ralph: @@
15:31:47 <Garth> q?
15:32:15 <Ralph> s/@@/it's all about triage -- the WG can own the responsibility to triage the issues
15:32:34 <Ralph> Tzviya: action items from TPAC
15:32:41 <liisamk> q+
15:32:48 <tzviya> ack liisamk
15:32:50 <Ralph> ... I wasn't able to attend either BG session but I heard they were good and interesting
15:33:18 <Ralph> Liisa: we learned that doing this kind of quick-paced talking about topics that are a bit on the fringe but business-based and wide was super-helpful to people
15:33:23 <Ralph> ... it got people engaged
15:33:35 <Ralph> ... we had bigger audiences that we'd had in previous meetings
15:33:38 <Ralph> ... 90 minutes worked well
15:34:02 <Ralph> ... we've been considering maybe once a quarter having focused single-topic sessions
15:34:18 <Ralph> ... and digging into those in the regular meetings
15:34:31 <Ralph> ... e.g. fonts in Asia
15:34:46 <Ralph> ... we've received some nice notes from people who attended and felt it was helpful
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15:34:56 <Ralph> ... we've gotten some good energy
15:35:01 <Ralph> Tzviya: any actions from WoT?
15:35:09 <Ralph> Liisa: we'll be helping with some use cases
15:35:17 <Ralph> ... this may pull more people in; e.g. on audio stuff
15:35:25 <Ralph> ... we'll definitely be doing some followup with WoT
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15:36:01 <Ralph> Tzviya: we have a lot of a11y experts in this group but there's a lot of work happening in Web Accessibility
15:36:18 <Ralph> ... we could have other speakers from that work talk in BG meetings
15:36:31 <Ralph> ... Wendy and I did two History of EPUB sessions
15:36:49 <Ralph> ... from that we have an offer to help with a CSS crash course
15:37:00 <Ralph> ... in our survey we see a lot of desire for pixel-perfect layout
15:37:34 <Ralph> ... Jen Simmons was one of the people who created CSS Grid; she did a lot of training to explain that pixel-perfect isn't really what people want on different screen sizes
15:37:50 <Ralph> ... she has offered to do some training to help people understand what modern CSS does
15:38:10 <Ralph> ... since a lot of our users read on phones this should not require huge changes to RS
15:38:28 <Ralph> Zheng: the CG launch kickoff meeting was last week
15:38:41 <Ralph> ... we've started the A11Y TF; Avneesh has sent that email
15:38:56 <Ralph> ... we're looking forward to finding more TF leaders and starting more TFs
15:39:10 <Ralph> ... we'll send email next week
15:39:14 <wendyreid> present+
15:39:19 <Ralph> ... we're preparing updates to the web site
15:39:38 <Ralph> ... I'm contacting folks in Asia to see if we can schedule an Asia-friendly kickoff meeting too
15:39:51 <Ralph> ... I have in mind a Japan TF
15:40:03 <Ralph> ... the content guidelines really need to be updated
15:40:08 <ivan> q+
15:40:36 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:41:11 <Ralph> Ivan: we should be very proactive in setting up the EPUB TF; don't just wait for people to come
15:41:42 <Ralph> ... we have to be careful not to put more expectations on the WG; the WG has to do the detailed job of getting the spec right
15:42:15 <Ralph> ... the work on testing is also very detailed
15:42:49 <Ralph> ... we need to build the mechanism for a TF to develop things that the spec should do
15:43:05 <Ralph> ... find 2-3 persons who will drive that community
15:43:28 <Ralph> ... the WG cannot be the place [to develop new things]; it has a lot of detailed work to do
15:44:00 <Ralph> ... the MathML session this week gave me some optimism that maybe we'll have a decent level of MathML implementation in the web core and then eventually in RS
15:44:22 <Ralph> ... what's important for this group is that there is a charter in development for a MathML WG
15:44:38 <tzviya> https://mathml-refresh.github.io/charter-drafts/math-2020.html
15:44:46 <Ralph> ... this relies on a level of MathML that is close to having implementations in the three browser engines
15:45:01 <Ralph> ... it is important to Publishing for that WG to be chartered and be successful
15:45:16 <George> +1000 to the importance of MathML
15:45:24 <tzviya> q?
15:45:32 <Ralph> Tzviya: yes; that was an excellent session; it gave me a lot of hope
15:45:36 <wendyreid> q+
15:45:45 <tzviya> ack wendyreid
15:45:51 <Ralph> Wendy: +1 to optimism
15:46:02 <Ralph> ... it was exciting to see so many people excited about math
15:46:14 <Ralph> ... we should give that charter our full support
15:46:29 <Ralph> ... the virtual breakout sessions were great; I felt I was able to attend more of them
15:46:43 <Ralph> ... there's a lot of energy out there for getting publications closer to the web
15:46:51 <Ralph> ... that made me feel good
15:47:01 <Ralph> ... format-wise, a 3-week long TPAC is exhausting
15:47:08 <Ralph> ... I hope we can be in-person next year
15:47:35 <Ralph> Tzviya: +1; if we have to do this virtually again, we have to find a less exhausting way
15:48:01 <Ralph> ... I have some ideas
15:48:16 <Ralph> ... what other sessions  did people attend?
15:48:47 <Ralph> Wendy: Long-form reading, Living Standards
15:49:10 <Ralph> .. .talking about Process is dry but it was interesting to get a better idea of the process for Audiobooks in the next iteration
15:49:21 <Ralph> ... we declared that we will be a "routinely updated standards"
15:49:26 <Ralph> s/ds"/d"
15:49:40 <ivan> q+
15:49:41 <Ralph> .. it was nice to get an explanation of what that will really be
15:49:51 <Ralph> ... I think the Process change will be exciting for many WGs
15:49:58 <Ralph> Ivan: including EPUB
15:49:58 <Avneesh> q+
15:50:03 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:50:07 <Ralph> ... Process 2020 will affect the future of EPUB a lot
15:50:39 <Ralph> Tzviya: once you publish something as a REC there can be incremental updates
15:51:25 <Ralph> Ivan: there was a session about the industry around advertisement and how that related to journal publishing
15:51:42 <Ralph> ... there's a bit of a mess in terminology; the term "publishing" is used in many places
15:52:12 <Bill_Kasdorf> Robin Berjon's session, "Media Publishers of the Web, Unite" is a good example of what Ivan is talking about.
15:52:34 <Ralph> ... the European Publishing Council session had a discussion about who represents whom
15:52:36 <Bill_Kasdorf> In fact that's exactly the one he's talking about.
15:52:53 <tzviya> q+ to mention CAT
15:53:07 <Ralph> Avneesh: as Ivan said; the "Media Publishers" session
15:53:14 <Ralph> ... the terminology is confusing
15:53:24 <Ralph> ... how this connects to various distribution mechanisms
15:53:36 <Ralph> ... what ways can we collaborate?
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15:53:55 <Ralph> ... there are similarites in the distribution systems; the supply chains
15:54:12 <tzviya> ack av
15:54:31 <Ralph> ... I feel EPUB 3 is OK in W3C now but to justify Publishing@W3C we need representation from all parts of the publishing industry
15:54:45 <Ralph> Tzviya: Robin's session was about the business models of news publishing
15:54:52 <Ralph> ... it's really not that different from trade publishing
15:54:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Tzviya
15:54:58 <tzviya> https://nytimes.github.io/std-cat/
15:55:07 <Ralph> ... trade doesn't depend on advertising but we do rely on third parties for distribution
15:55:19 <Ralph> ... CAT can apply to EPUB
15:55:28 <Ralph> ... the privacy issues Robin was talking about are very relevant to EPUB
15:55:54 <Ralph> ... David Wood focused a lot on this in the Publishing WG; the trust relationship between the consumer and the publisher
15:56:12 <Ralph> ... this issue occurs in both news publishing and trade publishing
15:56:54 <Ralph> Dave: the NYT relationship with content aggregation is very different from Hachette's relationship with content aggregation
15:57:07 <Ralph> ... NYT has a lot of native traffic to their web site and they have subscribers
15:57:18 <Ralph> ... trade publishers are pretty much completely dependent on content aggregators
15:57:27 <Ralph> ... Hachette doesn't sell books on their web site
15:57:36 <liisamk> (that is not true of all publishers)
15:57:46 <Ralph> ... a lot of the issues Robin raised were about what the world would look like if we do have books online
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15:57:57 <Ralph> ... how will we evaluate the health of any particular aggregation system?
15:58:17 <Ralph> ... what new web features would be required that something like AMP provides but aren't in a standards?
15:58:26 <Ralph> ... can these be created in a less-centralized way?
15:58:39 <Ralph> ... Robin is proposing some ways to evaluate these technologies
15:58:52 <tzviya> q?
15:58:54 <Ralph> ... but slow publishing is still very different from fast publishing, even if there is common ground
15:58:55 <tzviya> ack me
15:58:55 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to mention CAT
15:59:18 <dauwhe> https://twitter.com/dauwhe/status/1316095166126710792
15:59:28 <Ralph> Wendy: let's invite Robin to visit!
15:59:44 <Ralph> ... it would be good to liaise with others in the slack #publishing channel
15:59:52 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1000 to inviting Robin, Aram to come to talk with us
16:00:10 <Ralph> ... it would be good to understand where we align and can support them
16:00:28 <jyoshii> Please mention the Japanese situation,Trade publishing company also publish magazines, even news paper.
16:02:06 <Ralph> [adjourned]
16:02:18 <Bill_Kasdorf> sorry that I have to leave for another meeting
16:03:40 <jyoshii> My time is almost up. Bye.
16:04:22 <dauwhe> https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/HallwayDiscussion.html
16:05:21 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
16:05:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been George, Cristina, Ralph, Liisa, Tzviya, Bill, Daihei, Junichi, Avneesh, liisamk, Bill_Kasdorf, jyoshii, Ivan, Garth, zhengxu, wendyreid
16:05:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:05:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/30-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
16:05:26 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:05:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
16:09:13 <Ralph> Liisa: as of Tuesday, Amazon only accepts EPUB for reflow; mobi is out
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16:36:19 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:36:28 <Ralph> rrsagent, please make record public
16:36:33 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:36:33 <RRSAgent> I see no action items