14:53:11 RRSAgent has joined #math 14:53:11 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/10/29-math-irc 14:53:13 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:53:14 Meeting: Making math a first class citizen on the Web 14:56:28 bkardell_ has joined #math 14:56:55 NeilS has joined #math 14:57:35 hsivonen has joined #math 14:57:53 https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18oam2cageqx_8LZ5J9S6sUihygwaCWUgi1EOjuBUaCM/edit?usp=sharing 14:58:06 --> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18oam2cageqx_8LZ5J9S6sUihygwaCWUgi1EOjuBUaCM/edit?usp=sharing Slides 15:01:51 tzviya has joined #math 15:02:25 Ralph has joined #math 15:02:48 Judy has joined #math 15:03:01 Bert has joined #math 15:03:01 fantasai has joined #math 15:03:06 present+ 15:03:09 florian_irc has joined #math 15:03:10 George has joined #math 15:03:17 CharlesL has joined #math 15:03:17 --> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18oam2cageqx_8LZ5J9S6sUihygwaCWUgi1EOjuBUaCM/edit?usp=sharing Slides 15:03:19 maxf has joined #math 15:03:20 rtoyg_m2 has joined #math 15:03:23 rego has joined #math 15:03:23 present+ 15:03:29 present+ 15:03:48 jensimmons has joined #math 15:03:53 present+ 15:04:17 ivan has joined #math 15:04:33 NS: Davidc Scribe in irc 15:04:35 present+ 15:04:39 atsushi has joined #math 15:04:50 George_ has joined #math 15:04:50 NS: links to presentations in chat and zoom 15:04:52 present 15:04:56 present+ 15:05:09 NS: Neil and Brian to do initial presentations 15:05:31 iank_ has joined #math 15:05:50 PLH: starting recording 15:06:14 jeff has joined #math 15:06:22 present+ 15:06:23 Neil: Brian will talk about status of mathml, them I will talk about mathml 4 full core and charter 15:07:11 BK: math and graphics mathml and svg two earliest w3c standards, integrated into html5 parser 15:07:11 present+ 15:07:53 BK: some issues and when blink split from webkit, dropped mathml, left questions about status of mathml 15:08:35 BK: mathml has strong infrostructure outside of browsers wikipedia has thousands of pages and lack of mml one of most starred bugs on chrome 15:08:50 wendyreid has joined #math 15:08:57 present+ 15:09:04 present+ 15:09:06 BK: math is text and ability to render math accepted 15:09:29 BK: eg home education and needing to do math 15:10:05 BK MathML refresh community group: split old mathml spec into full and core. Core is focussed on things supported by browswes and have existing content 15:10:35 BK@ core draft aims to specify many things not previously specified eg integration with html/css/dom 15:10:55 BK apporiach in style of modern standards with interated tests 15:11:21 BK: Igalia working on imlementation and tests 15:12:14 BK: existing browser implementtaions don't pass all tests as previously not interoperable 15:12:44 BK: high level of interop even in current implemetation and improvined test coverage 15:12:47 MikeSmith has joined #math 15:13:07 q+ to comment 15:13:08 BK: Please jon community group and/or file bugs on implementations. 15:13:50 NS: what is in Core..? scripts limits fractions stretch characters, matices and math typosigraphy (low level math layout details) 15:14:46 q- 15:16:06 NS: Not in core (core level 1): linebreaking, indentation, bevelled fractions, elementary math (long division etc) meclose (strikeout etc) labelled table rows, links, som eother little used attributes and some obscure alignment features. 15:16:15 --> https://mathml-refresh.github.io/mathml/docs/TPAC-OverView.html Intro 15:16:31 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:16:31 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/29-math-minutes.html MikeSmith 15:16:32 --> https://mathml-refresh.github.io/charter-drafts/math-2020.html charter draft 15:16:45 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:17:03 NS: CharteNS: scope develop recs and test suites, clarify integration with javascrip/css, accessibility requirements (already quite good but want to clarify) Removing some unused elements. 15:17:50 NS: out of scope adding new elements, nor eemove elements that have significant usage. Goal to maintain most existing cmathml documents. 15:17:59 --> https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues/43 Getting Math Onto Web Pages 15:18:13 q+ 15:18:16 I have seen discussion about dropping particular features, and response from Apple that they don’t support dropping those features 15:18:21 NS: not removing content mathml, this has not had wide adoption and we are looking at intent annotations in presentation mathml 15:18:22 dsinger has joined #math 15:18:23 q+ 15:18:51 q+ 15:19:24 NS: deliverables: Core level 1 already have reasonable start of a spec. Also Core level 2, this is pitems planned for future core releas. and MathML full, other parts of MathML3, and use outside of teh web. 15:19:38 MikeSmith, I think it's mostly about deferring not dropping features? Similar to CSS2.1 effort. 15:20:19 NS: specify accessibility techniques. Hope to have at least one tex to mathml convertor presrving accessibility annotations., and one a convertor from content mathml to presentation with accessibility and search annotations. 15:20:36 NS: sample conversions to speaech. 15:20:40 fantasai, what I saw was about dropping some features actually. I am pretty certain Fred Wang has proposed doing so 15:21:02 q+ to comment 15:21:02 NS: will open up to discussion, would like feedback on polyfilling, and shadow dom issues. 15:21:36 NS: There is a start of accessibility mapping for mathml mad searching not really covered. 15:21:38 q+ 15:21:47 q+ to ask what you need from publishers 15:22:15 NS: who will do the work? Igalia has done most of the work recently, not much support from browser vendors. 15:22:27 q? 15:22:38 NS: recording stopped, open discussions 15:22:40 ack Judy 15:23:08 jamesn has joined #math 15:23:11 Judy Brewer: thanks for presentation I could not agree more how important it is to get accessibility on the web. 15:23:58 fantasai, see https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2019-March/030537.html and that whole thread 15:24:09 myles has joined #math 15:24:13 present+ myles 15:24:13 JB: Particular;y looking for conformation that content mathml will continue. Was going to ask how could W3C help with guidence, resources. You started to cover this in final part of your presentation. 15:25:27 ack forian 15:25:30 NS: I think a lot of this is bottom up so we mainly need to get vendor involvement, eg apple had done a nice job of mathml in safari and also voiceopver on safari but would b eimportant to get updates for new intent markup 15:25:30 ack florian_irc 15:26:45 present+ 15:26:59 Florian Rivoal: some time there was pushback agaisnt mathml as content mathml not widely implemented and presentation mathml not rich enough, it appears that you are agreeing with that but rather than drop eveything you are looking to extend presentation mathml 15:27:23 along with the other problems that florian_irc mention is the problem that the underlying MathML layout model does not match well with the CSS layout model 15:29:04 NS: there is a technique for posting linked trees of content and prersentation mathml, so current plan is to address presentationsmathml's lack of semantics/intent eg knowing if a superscript is a power or Transpose, by supplying a simople way for authors to specify a general subject area (eg calculus or chemistry and to provide a way more similar to contnet mathmk where the author intent is specified by attributes on individual terms) 15:31:54 ack bert 15:32:02 BK: HTML itself only has weak text semantics, eg is this a poem etc, so a lot of things fall into hints and heuristics so that given 2 decades of experience so right answer seems to be that right answer is to build on mathml not start over. 15:32:13 q+ 15:32:21 Bert Bos: You mentioned some things not going into core 1. 15:32:41 BB: why not links? 15:33:29 BK: we asked about this in tag review and two browsers support this already (and that won't be removed) but will be deferred to level 2 for specification 15:34:00 BK: many things niot specified in mml, eg tab index, securrity principles (has to match html links) 15:34:29 BK: SVG backed out its original anything can be an (x) link 15:34:51 ack Mike 15:34:51 MikeSmith, you wanted to comment 15:34:54 BK current plan to allow lonks on token elements and to add a ne "a" element more linke html a 15:35:19 https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2019-March/030537.html 15:35:40 s/lonks/links 15:36:08 s/linke/like 15:36:13 Mike5: It was asserted that there was no plan to remove features, but in the past theer was discussion on webkit about removing features and apple said they would not do that as they have mathml enabled in webview which is also used out of the browser and it is less clear there which features are being used. 15:37:50 s/ niot / not / 15:38:11 s/securrity/security/ 15:38:35 Mike5: I'm Mike Smith (in Tokyo) been followeing MathML for a long time, at one point google removed mathml support from Chrome, and what has prevented this from getting higher priotization amongst browser engines, part of the plan has to be someoen taking responsibility for future maintainence 15:39:19 BK: I did address some of these, but I do think that things have changed 15:40:00 q- 15:40:31 s/priotization/prioritization 15:40:34 thank you iank_ 15:40:38 Ian Kilpatrick: From our perspective (google) we have a high bar for adding features, well testsed but work in last couple of years has been fantastic in addressing these issues and we feel a lot more comfortable about maintenance 15:40:41 ack charles 15:41:16 q+ to ask about prioritization of features and developer pain points 15:41:33 florian_irc: That's part of it - the code now from our perspective is very easy to maintain. 15:41:35 s/maintainence/maintenance 15:41:39 bkardell_: No problem :) 15:42:09 Charles laPierre: I'm recalling a demo of mathml in chrome at a previous tpac. The author intent has a strong correlation between the purpose annotation in personalisation WG, my question: where does this leave mathjax? 15:42:09 MikeSmith: I wish I had some more time to address your stuff about removal and webkit comments 15:42:11 s/testsed/tested 15:42:35 bkardell_, we can take it ot eh issue tracker 15:43:30 NS: won't replace need for mathjax, MJ ytakes several inputs tex, mathml, asciimath, and output jas being html, svg and (previously) mathml. I suspect the html output or a new output jax will incorporate mathml core. I have spoken with DC (main implementor) and he's in favour of this when time ready. 15:43:40 ack tzviya 15:43:40 tzviya, you wanted to ask what you need from publishers 15:44:13 Tzviya Siegman: as a publisher what do you need from us? I can not promise money but I have loads of content. 15:44:48 NS: content is important, I've been surprised that publishers haven't pushed harder for elementary math support. 15:45:36 NS Pearson has been involved in cmathml refresh and been looking at what is important in educational contexts 9eg bevelled fractions didn't seem so important andc crerent;y pushed to level 2) 15:46:06 BK: It would be good to support the charter and join the group if chartered, providing content helps. 15:46:27 s/personalization WG/personalization TF within the APA 15:46:36 q? 15:46:48 BK: NISO and Pearson have given support 15:47:18 ack Mike 15:47:18 MikeSmith, you wanted to ask about prioritization of features and developer pain points 15:47:21 TS: At Wiley we are more in academic publishing and linebreaking likely to be an issue 15:47:45 q+ Georges 15:48:17 q? 15:48:50 Mike5: one thing I have not seen in previous years is documenting what are the pain points due to lack of support eg Neils example with bevelled fractions, but it would be good to document where the descisions were made 15:49:03 BK mathml refresh has a huge (github) issue tracker 15:49:18 s/Charles laPierre:/Charles_laPierre: 15:49:35 q+ Ian 15:49:38 Mike5: People can't go through the whole tracker but need a simpler documented list of main decisions 15:49:42 s/Tzviya Siegman:/Tzviya_Siegman: 15:49:57 q+ 15:50:01 ack Georges 15:50:05 s/NS Pearson/NS: Pearson 15:50:14 BK: Until we gt past current pain point that not implemented in all the main engines difficult to get into specific issues 15:50:36 s/BK mathml refresh/BK: mathml refresh 15:50:46 George Kerscher: Chemistry WG committed to working with ypu on pronunciations for Chemisty 15:50:46 ack Ian 15:50:56 ack florian_irc 15:50:59 Neil: yes we really appreciate input from Chemisty WG 15:51:00 MikeSmith: would you be willing to talk with me after about how we can answer your point better? We have a lot of data, an explainer, a spec, etc -- how can I help? 15:51:21 s/George Kerscher:/George_Kerscher: 15:51:35 bkardell_, yeah, definitely. And I can raise an issue in the tracker too 15:51:44 MikeSmith: perfect! 15:51:54 Florian Rivoal: unlike most texts math is multilingual same math may apply to multiple languages. Is authoring intent sufficient;y abstract or does in insert English descriptions. 15:52:26 s/Florian Rivoal:/Florian_Rivoal:/g 15:53:27 NS: unlike core which is alrready specified this is not yet final propsal, but current ideal is that levels 1,2,3 would be common language independent terms eg "binomial coefficient" 15:54:19 s/alrready/already 15:54:37 NS: translators would need to translate these level 1 terms, but for wider defined terms (level 3) they would be or may be in English, a translator may try to translate as text on the fly or the author may supply more than one language. 15:54:46 s/sufficient;y/sufficiently 15:54:54 q? 15:55:20 FR: would it be possible to make the dictionary multilingual to save each translator doing the work 15:55:39 NS: yes we could have multilingual fields and ask peopel to contribute 15:56:00 plh I have a question in closing 15:56:01 s/peopel/people 15:56:09 NS: but in advanced specialised fields, perhaps showing English bias, English is very predominent 15:56:51 s/predominent/predominant 15:57:06 Proposal: are people supportive of the new charter? 15:57:08 +1 to chartering this group 15:57:10 BK: Could we tale a sense of teh room of whether peopel are supportive of a new charter for a math WG 15:57:12 +1 15:57:13 +1 15:57:15 +1 15:57:15 +1 15:57:16 +1 15:57:17 +1 15:57:19 +1 15:57:22 +1 15:57:22 +1 15:57:37 +1 15:57:49 1+ 15:58:04 +1 15:58:10 NS: we have had a huge number of participitants here and I really appreciate this 15:58:14 DavidFarmer has joined #math 15:58:44 Lots of things in Hungarian 15:58:46 +1 15:58:53 thank you everyone 15:58:59 zakim, end meeting 15:58:59 As of this point the attendees have been Bert, CharlesL, George, jensimmons, ivan, rego, jeff, plh, wendyreid, fantasai, myles 15:59:01 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 15:59:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/29-math-minutes.html Zakim 15:59:03 sorry about my typing:-) 15:59:04 I am happy to have been of service, plh; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 15:59:08 Zakim has left #math 15:59:41 Also, I am wondering if dictionaries are enough to cut it. it's not just vocabulary, there's grammar and word order too 16:00:33 If you take something as basic as a sum notation, knowing the name of all the parts isn't enough to let you read it aloud correctly 16:00:38 @DavidC -- we *never* complain about a scribe's typing -- thanks so much for taking the minutes 16:02:26 florian_irc: I believe the current vision is that the spec will at least expose the mathematical components, but defer to the a11y software tools to provide the smarts for perfect speech over a content form. 16:03:58 I hope you're right. I am concerned that there's massive unrecognized complexity there, and if we don't solve it right, there'll be a significant gap in the accessibility story. 16:04:08 that doesn't invalidate the approach though 16:04:15 we should still start from what we have 16:04:31 bkardell__ has joined #math 16:04:34 and enhance it progressively with more and more intent annotations and things like that 16:05:07 but going from there to accessible descriptions of what you're looking at (or cannot be looking at, depending on the person) might still be quite a ways off 16:06:20 RRSAgent, bye 16:06:20 I see no action items