29 Oct 2020


Jennie, Rachael, Fazio, Abi, LisaSeemanKest, stevelee, Justine, BetsyFurler_
EA, John_R, John_K, Roy_R


<Rachael> title: COGA Taskforce Meeting 29 October 2020

<Rachael> scribe: Jennie

Review action items https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#updated_time_line_-April_2020

Rachael: I am still working on the 1st action item

Abi: I reviewed the glossary issues, and put proposals together and sent to the list last week
... We approved them on last week's call

Lisa: I think we had 2 left

Abi: We did symbol user
... All remaining issues were related to other ones
... On the editorial call on Tuesday and we discussed it there as well

Rachael: I think this is closed, so I will add Rachael and Lisa to verify
... Did that include the updated glossary in github?

Abi: Yes, all that have been approved by the group are in there
... we have to wait for other changes that may arise

Rachael: Lisa, as people finish actions do we want to merge into master, or just do it one time?
... For many of the issues

Lisa: I will go over that with Roy and probably Michael
... you can give that action to us
... 1 of us can do a merge, the other has to approve it
... The glossary sounds a bit more complicated

Rachael: We can talk about that on Tuesday and work through it

Justine: I have icons custom created by someone in my organization.
... When we have time we can walk through them

Rachael: Maybe as part of next week's agenda?

Justine: yes that would be fine

Rachael: If you can send them to the COGA list that would be great so people can review them ahead of time

Justine: yes

Rachael: Now talking about patterns

Steve: I have done all except for one
... Clear and Understandable page structure
... all the others are done

David F: I have started mine, and am trucking along

Rachael: Do you have a date of when it will be complete?

Lisa: we needed them last week

Rachael: Can we say next week to have it done?

David F: yes

Abi: I have done some work but I have had issues that I have added to the tracking spreadsheet

David F: I saw those and worked on the redundant entry

scribe: I had the same concerns

Abi: When we have wider issues, what is the next step?

Rachael: I wonder if we can set a little time aside after this in the agenda, and then set aside time formally next meeting to work on this

<Abi> +1

Rachael: any concern about adding an agenda item to discuss the patterns?

<Rachael> Jennie: One is completed and updated in tracking. Other have questions about. Will defer to next agenda item.

Rachael: I think that is everybody

Betsy: The review of the objective text - I have questions about this

Lisa: Can you send me some times for Monday?

Rachael: Can you cc me as well

Betsy: yes

<Rachael> Jennie: I sent the language that John and I worked on. We would like the group to approve. Can we get that put on a wiki page? We also have scheduled a Nov 16 meeting to review any images that are submitted.

<Rachael> ...anyone interested, please send an email to let me know you'd like an invitation

Rachael: Lisa you were going to look at file type and sizes

Lisa: I think we were going to have the W3C confirm

Rachael: OK I think that is good for now
... Any other actions that people want to talk about today?

Review image language

The Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force needs help creating images for an upcoming publication that has an international audience. The images will show readers how website designs can improve access to websites. We need two images for each design concept used in our document. • Image 1: a mockup of a website that makes it difficult to use because it does not follow the design concept.

In the Making Content Usable document design concepts are called Objectives. All images are to be original, and if selected, become property of the W3C. There will be no compensation provided. Selected artwork will credit the artist (this needs W3C specific legal language). Technical Information

File types: SVG (vector format) preferred. File should be 1600 px wide. Please create images with the understanding that some of our readers may:

• magnify the image to better view the details. • view them on different size screens/devices. • have difficulty perceiving color. They will either view the images as published, or they may use software to change the color schemes. Understanding the images cannot depend on the perception of color.

• only use the alternative text for the image. Please design images that have a clear purpose. This will make it easier for authors to write the alternative text, and for individuals with cognitive disabilities to understand how it is related to its context. Ready to Help? If you would like to submit an image for consideration:

1. Contact John Kirkwood (kirkwood@citymouse.com) and Jennie Delisi (jennie.delisi@state.mn.us) for more information. 2. We will send you the list of objectives, and links to examples of sites that meet or do not meet these objectives. 3. Select one or more objectives, and create your designs.

The deadline for submissions is Friday, November 13th, 2020. A committee will review the submissions and select images for publication. The week of November 23, 2020 the committee will send acceptance emails.

<LisaSeemanKest> great

<Rachael> Replace: "Selected artwork will credit the artist (this needs W3C specific legal language)." with "Artists whose work is selected will be included in the contributors list"

<Rachael> Proposed RESOLUTION: Approve language

<Fazio> +1


<LisaSeemanKest> +1

<Rachael> +1

<Justine> +1

<Abi> +1

<stevelee> +1

<BetsuFurler_> +1

<Rachael> wiki will be at https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Image_language

RESOLUTION: Approve language

discuss patterns

<stevelee> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1O3zMXCDhycSTxY4ofpT3-Tf7MQnoZ890naMRkNXwoNk/edit?userstoinvite=abigrafton%40gmail.com&ts=5f6cb049&actionButton=1#gid=0

Steve: this link is for the tracking spreadsheet
... all except 1 has advanced
... most look ready for review except Abi's, Jennie's, and the 1 I am working on
... to discuss issues, review them
... We could use comments as we have done before
... The tracking spreadsheet may be easier
... The task force should decide where these issues should go
... And make sure we do them the same way

Rachael: what is everyone's preference?
... Issues and challenges in the spreadsheet or on the document?

Abi: I may put wider questions for feedback on the spreadsheet

Steve: I agree with that
... I will transfer the issues needed to be discussed into the tracking sheet
... We also need to get the review process going
... It would be ideal if we can have lots of people reviewing
... from the group
... Is there a review process?

Rachael: Once they are done, can we have people sign up for review, and try to get 2 people to sign up for each one?

Lisa: If Steve reviews the ones that have not been done by him, etc., this will help with consistency

Steve: Sounds good

<Abi> +1

Rachael: Are others willing to review Steve's?

Steve: Please just wait until I remove issues to the spreadsheet, then I can send a message when they are ready
... Let's do issues first, then the review

Rachael: Next week, let's discuss who will do the reviews
... Let's start with Abi's
... then Steve's, then David's and Jennie's

<stevelee> https://docs.google.com/document/d/146ELqKe-WRgPtYo8cBJPy6cjVDuCJ3irqZQ3SG1gNBc/edit

Abi: question 1 - the pattern is relying on users memorizing information
... Is this specifically for processes? Or is it wider?

<Fazio> https://docs.google.com/document/d/18MCz5XDsMmglcAe2j-HzQbpADpw_HtdVjDZ3EHX4-xk/edit

Steve: When I went through adding these user needs they didn't always match perfectly
... Don't assume that the user need is correct

David F: I pasted in the success criteria that this pattern maps to

scribe: When I first started working on it it had a lot of what Abi is talking about, but started focusing on steps in a process
... If we can follow the success criteria, the design pattern should be done in a way to help follow the success criteria

Rachael: I don't believe we need to match the SC with these patterns

<LisaSeemanKest> +1 to rachael

Rachael: They are not a formal requirement, not a success criteria
... We can provide a wider number of use cases and patterns

David F: I just mean to help us guide, we can be broader yes, but we don't want to contradict the success criteria

Abi: If it would incorporate all processes...this currently has bits about process, but others about tasks
... I think it could cover other types of activities that may require memorization

David F: A failure around going back in a process - it is things like that I am a bit concerned about

Steve: There is a slight overlap possibly
... There is also the login not relying on memory

David F: there is also the accessible authentication one

scribe: I think John R was working on that

Abi: In terms of editing, just being aware that we have a login specific one
... I will try to keep it broad but not overlap

(group agrees verbally)

Abi: OK I can do that
... The other question I have - a lot of the examples are about interfaces, and felt like the only examples being given
... David's may be more applicable for some
... Navigating voice menus is another piece
... Is this because the patterns are being merged

David F: We moved away from it

<Rachael> Jennie: In the conversations when we were looking at the SC, one of the concerns of the AG was that it was out of scope of web interfaces. In recent developments in web conferences tools we are entering a merged space with things called soft bones with things like MS teams. This is beginning to be present in the web space.

<Rachael> ...Important to include.

Rachael: I do think we should keep the current example, and add on new ones
... The purpose of this review is to add additional examples to make them fit better

Steve: That's interesting to hear, Jennie
... What's interesting is that the W3C has a pronunciation group
... There is an unofficial API for speech generation, speech recognition
... 1 is only supported by Chrome
... I think we will start to see more activity
... Maybe we should broaden it
... Speech recognition is an issue
... We should address it to be ahead of the curve
... I can't remember how it interacted with the voice one

Abi: Can I hear Lisa 1st?

Lisa: It is in scope because the emerging technologies, the Speech ML technology
... It is about how to use that technology correctly
... But it also in scope because so often people say people that can't use a website can call
... Even if people aren't using web, if it isn't a workable alternative
... It is really important conceptually

Abi: I think we are all agreed that voice menus are in scope
... I have a lot of content here specific to voice menus
... We have information stating avoid complicated voice menus, we could also talk about designing voice menus
... I'm concerned we have duplications
... in the various patterns

Steve: in the broader scope
... Could it be added into the other pattern?

Abi: Yes
... And make the memory one broader
... There is a lot of information specifically around designing voice menus

Steve: I think that is a good idea

Abi: Should I review the voice menu pattern at the same time?

Steve: Yes. I think we will have a few patterns like that

Rachael: I agree

Abi: OK, I can take on both
... I have updated the spreadsheet with what was decided

Rachael: Moving on to David

David F: I do not have any issues, but it is good to know that I do not have to align with the success criterias that have been proposed

Steve: I know we were cutting out a lot of what was in the patterns for the proposed success criteria, but this is our way to make sure we don't lose those pieces

Rachael: I think we have decided not to conflict with the proposed SC, but it is ok to be broad

David F: Will this need to be approved by the working group as well? The design guide?

Rachael: Yes. It will go through both APA and AG

Steve: The task force publishes documents

Rachael: I agree with Steve
... There is recognition that this is not a standards document

<Rachael> Jennie: 2 assigned. First is about help. Its ready for review. The other one states that I can give feedback, ask questions, and get feedback. I Think there is overlap. I'd like to remove the ask questions piece because I think its covered in the help one. As far as the get feedback about my feedback. Can I reword to "Participate in the feedback process" Suggest improvements and participate from the dialogue.

<Rachael> want to separate help and feedback.

Steve: I wanted to have the feedback piece added, but what you are saying is a bit different

<Fazio> +1

Steve: I would not object to feedback being removed from that piece

<LisaSeemanKest> can i have the link so i can see it?

<stevelee> https://w3c.github.io/coga/content-usable/#pattern-make-it-easy-to-find-help-and-give-feedback

<Rachael> 4.8.5 I can give feedback, ask questions and get feedback.

Rachael: I support separating help and feedback
... I think that is clean distinction

<Rachael> 4.8.1 I know how to get human help and can manage the process easily.

Rachael: It may even break out into 3 patterns

David F: A lot of companies have an accessibility line, and accessibility problems

scribe: I think that is also help
... I know a lot of maturity models and regulations require a feedback mechanisms

<LisaSeemanKest> sorry one is 8.5. what is the other

scribe: That's how it all ties together User Need

Lisa: One is about human help
... When you have human help it should be a process you can manage
... The other is for a feedback form
... If people need to call they can manage
... The other is a step in a process
... 4.8.5 It is about getting help at any point in a process
... On the other hand, providing human help, the description is too short in a way
... It is about getting human help when it is available

Steve: 4.8.5 there may be 2 aspects - how you locate on a page or find, navigate to the information about getting help
... the other is navigating what you find
... We have the terms help and support
... Maybe the human help is more about support

Lisa: Feedback also includes "I don't like this site"
... Support is more "How do I use this?"

Rachael: I suggest that Jennie takes her best shot at making those changes, or coming up with a way of making those more clear
... Then if you could make an editor's meeting

Abi: I do think feedback might not be the appropriate word
... When I'm working with designers they think feedback is visual feedback like an error on a page
... I think how we use that word is important

Rachael: Jennie is suggesting help as one pattern, human help as another, and feedback as a 3rd

Lisa: I'm not sure which problem we are solving
... They sound the same to me

Steve: I think human help is definitely separate. I think feedback was with finding help
... People say "I can't use this"
... They are significantly different in the mind of users, so I think they need to be separate

Lisa: We are not saying we will change 2 into 3
... We will take 4.8.5 and spilt that into 2

jennie: yes, that works for me. I will work on this

Rachael: There is an editor's call after this

<Rachael> trackbot end meeting

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

  1. Approve language
[End of minutes]

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Default Present: Jennie, Rachael, Fazio, Abi, LisaSeemanKest, stevelee, Justine
Present: Jennie Rachael Fazio Abi LisaSeemanKest stevelee Justine BetsyFurler_
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