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16:53:55 <AutomatedTester> Meeting: Browser Testing and Tools WG @ TPAC - Day 3
16:54:10 <AutomatedTester> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2020-TPAC#Agenda
16:54:25 <AutomatedTester> chair: AutomatedTester
16:54:38 <AutomatedTester> Scribe: David Burns
16:54:45 <AutomatedTester> ScribeNick: AutomatedTester
16:54:49 <AutomatedTester> present+
16:54:54 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: nolisten
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17:02:46 <jimevans> present+
17:02:46 <shengfa> present+
17:02:47 <Honza> present+
17:02:55 <cb> present+
17:02:59 <jgraham> present+
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17:03:15 <foolip> present+
17:03:20 <john_chen> present+
17:04:14 <brwalder> present+
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17:04:41 <simonstewart> present+
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17:05:11 <foolip> mathiasbynens will be here for the second hour
17:05:42 <brrian> present+
17:05:55 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2020-TPAC#Topic_Bank
17:07:41 <AutomatedTester> Topic: Network interception
17:08:32 <simonstewart> Is there a link to the issue?
17:08:54 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: One of the common use cases for bidi from Selenium and we've seen it in puppeteer is the ability to see when a specific request happens and do a specific case
17:09:02 <drousso> drousso has joined #webdriver
17:09:04 <AutomatedTester> ... such as basic auth
17:09:07 <drousso> present+
17:09:33 <AutomatedTester> ... or the othre request  is network requests where we can say if X happens that we mock those network requests
17:09:45 <foolip> q+
17:09:50 <cb> q+
17:10:07 <AutomatedTester> ... I think this part of the "value add" feature sets
17:10:36 <AutomatedTester> ... I've been looking around at this and CDP has the Fetch domain
17:10:49 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes how CDP does this case]
17:11:29 <AutomatedTester> ... looking at WebKit it looks very similar
17:11:40 <drousso> present+
17:11:57 <AutomatedTester> ... Gecko has a very model in webextensions
17:12:22 <foolip> https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/66
17:12:22 <simonstewart> q+
17:12:36 <AutomatedTester> Github topic: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/66
17:12:48 <AutomatedTester> ... so we have precendent in this area
17:12:49 <jgraham> a/very model/slightly different model/
17:12:54 <jgraham> s/very model/slightly different model/
17:12:54 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:13:03 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:13:09 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
17:13:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:13:10 <drousso> present+
17:13:13 <drousso> q+
17:13:23 <drousso> lol oops i used the wrong command :P
17:14:04 <AutomatedTester> foolip: is the model to both replace response without doing the response or can we edit and pass it back
17:14:23 <AutomatedTester> ... that's how I think CDP does this
17:14:51 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think there is a getResponse type command that you get it and then can edit it
17:15:00 <AutomatedTester> ... both seem like meaningful use cases
17:15:04 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:15:08 <AutomatedTester> ack cb
17:15:26 <AutomatedTester> cb: is the scope of this feature to capture all web resources?
17:15:47 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I believe that the scope should be to all resource fetches
17:15:57 <brwalder> q+
17:16:07 <AutomatedTester> ... there is a question that I don't know the answer to which is how would service workers handle this
17:16:09 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:16:13 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
17:16:59 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: there are a lot of implementations for how intercepting of auth since there are cases like webauthn
17:17:13 <AutomatedTester> ... puppeteer doesn't seem to have a handle on this yet
17:17:23 <AutomatedTester> ... are we going to make it flexible enough
17:17:44 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: yes, those are important cases
17:18:21 <AutomatedTester> ... I am not sure they should be part of this API. I think they have already added webdriver features and they are best placed to handle this
17:18:50 <AutomatedTester> ... I've just looked and they have a VirtualAuthenticator for testing
17:19:02 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: Ive seen that in the selenium code base
17:19:03 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:19:07 <AutomatedTester> ack drousso
17:19:59 <AutomatedTester> drousso: the reason we have added the support for things like this purely for webinspector, not for automation but can be used there
17:20:25 <AutomatedTester> foolip: can you replace request headers as you see fit?
17:20:58 <AutomatedTester> drousso: yes, and there are some pass throughs that means if people dont have send all the items
17:21:11 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:21:18 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
17:22:05 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: re: service workers. In CDP this is set at the network layer and would not work for service workers as that's different
17:22:20 <foolip> q+
17:22:52 <simonstewart> q?
17:23:03 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: that makes sense. I did have a question around filtering of this. How would we limit this to browsing context/realm?
17:23:13 <shengfa> There is also recent code merge in ChromeDriver for webauth(https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/2488183) with reference links in commit message.
17:23:18 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:23:27 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:23:45 <AutomatedTester> foolip: a question for brwalder : Does this bypass the cache?
17:24:04 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: Enabling the fetch domain disables the cache
17:24:13 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: that's not true you need to do it manually
17:24:24 <AutomatedTester> drousso: webkit turns it off
17:24:37 <AutomatedTester> foolip: so we need to be smart here when designing it
17:26:23 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: I would like to discuss this more indepth
17:26:44 <AutomatedTester> ... I imagine people have in their minds what puppeteer do in the fetch domain
17:27:16 <AutomatedTester> ... are we wanting to have a similar model for the future
17:27:35 <AutomatedTester> ... I don't know how webkit do this
17:27:48 <AutomatedTester> drousso: I dont know CDP but will explain webkit
17:28:15 <AutomatedTester> .... webkit does something similar that it takes a pattern for an interception  and at what stage
17:28:23 <AutomatedTester> ... this is only request or response currently
17:28:31 <brwalder> q+
17:28:43 <AutomatedTester> ... the engine will notice and emit an event to the front end
17:29:06 <AutomatedTester> ... requestContinue - carry on as normal
17:29:34 <AutomatedTester> ... [describes 3 other events]
17:30:03 <AutomatedTester> ... All of this par tof the network domain and not a separate domain
17:30:26 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I don't think we should have a spralling mass of modukes
17:30:33 <AutomatedTester> ack brwalder
17:30:43 <AutomatedTester> brwalder: that sounds more or less like CDP Fetch
17:30:56 <AutomatedTester> ... and has similar workflow
17:31:20 <AutomatedTester> ... and if you want the cache disabled you have to do it manually
17:31:33 <AutomatedTester> ... and the same for service workers
17:31:44 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:33:20 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: So my understanding is that there will be a command that takes a regex and then emits events and you can manipulate it as you see fit
17:33:59 <AutomatedTester> ... and when you get an authentication request you will intercept and insert credentials or we can deny it
17:34:18 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I agree
17:34:31 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: and one thing more that we implicitly disable the cache
17:35:14 <AutomatedTester> drousso: both chrome and webkit disable the cache if requested
17:35:34 <AutomatedTester> ... but when we are going to override anything we make sure that automatically disable the cache instead
17:36:24 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think we need to be clear in the spec and it seems webkit are doing the right thing, especially for automation
17:36:43 <AutomatedTester> ... I cant see a use case for the CDP way other thank creating flaky tests
17:37:05 <jgraham> s/doing the right thing/have the correct cache-disabling behaviour/
17:37:21 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make logs public
17:37:26 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
17:37:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:38:15 <AutomatedTester> Resolution: Create a command that  takes a regex and then emits events and users can manipulate requests and responses based on the events sent. When an authentication request is intercepted we can insert credentials or deny them
17:38:22 <AutomatedTester> github-bot: end topic
17:38:59 <AutomatedTester> Topic: Shadow DOM
17:39:45 <AutomatedTester> Github Topic: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/issues/350
17:40:31 <AutomatedTester> jimevans: With the rising use of web components the ability to interact with Shadow DOM is getting more important
17:40:57 <AutomatedTester> ... right now those components are opaque to webdriver
17:41:10 <AutomatedTester> ... there are some work arounds using executeScript
17:41:50 <AutomatedTester> ... and some XPATH libraries have been able to pierce Shadow DOM because CSS does not have the ability to pierce the shadowroot
17:42:16 <jgraham> q+
17:42:44 <AutomatedTester> ... we need a way to "switch" or "select" into a shadow dom and test the elements in there
17:42:56 <AutomatedTester> ... I have a straw man proposals
17:43:10 <AutomatedTester> ... THere are some outstanding questions:
17:43:18 <AutomatedTester> ... 1) What do we do with closed roots
17:44:15 <AutomatedTester> ... 2) and how do we handle this. E.g. could we do element.getShadowRoot() and continue from there
17:44:50 <jimevans> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15DYXZyWsahr1peyOWmi2QGgzi3Xb2GlITyywx-2cPXc/edit?usp=sharing
17:47:59 <cb> https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/pull/1320/files
17:49:41 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:50:17 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:50:29 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I like the shape of the proposal
17:51:27 <AutomatedTester> ... and like going element and being able to pierce this makes sense
17:52:23 <foolip> q+
17:52:25 <AutomatedTester> ... and I think that the reason why this hasn't happened hasnt been fundamental opposition to this, purely time
17:53:22 <jgraham> q+
17:54:48 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: I remember from TPAC last year that the DOM member from Apple said there was opposition to allowing Shadow Roots from being pierced and they said this is the main reason why CSS piercing was not allowed but Jim has told us that XPATH can get around this issue
17:54:50 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:54:55 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:55:37 <AutomatedTester> foolip: if I remember on Monday jgraham said that Shadow Roots would not be interacted the same was as in bidi as http
17:55:47 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:56:13 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: in answer to foolip the serialisation is more generic
17:56:36 <AutomatedTester> ... we would serialise it and it would just serialise that is has a shadowroot
17:56:51 <AutomatedTester> ... since we have generic concept of node and not a web element
17:56:55 <foolip> ok that makes sense, if we're talking about merely finding out that something is a shadow host
17:57:35 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: It feels like the DOM are not understanding us here and perhaps we need to go speak to them
17:57:38 <foolip> q?
17:57:45 <AutomatedTester> ... since this is open to Devtools but not us
17:58:53 <AutomatedTester> ... and the next item is to I wonder if we can simplify the API to accept a now and reusing webelement.
17:59:20 <foolip> q+
17:59:26 <AutomatedTester> q+
17:59:32 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
18:00:02 <mathiasbynens> present+
18:00:19 <jgraham> q+
18:00:37 <AutomatedTester> foolip: Is the frustration that people can not pierce things or are we going to have to do it for every boundary
18:01:38 <AutomatedTester> jimevans: the proposal is to minimize the cognitive load to keep it "similar" to find elements
18:02:13 <AutomatedTester> ... except the sematics would be that you are specifically looking in the shadow
18:02:24 <AutomatedTester> ... no thoughts have been given for chaining
18:02:53 <cb> q+
18:03:09 <AutomatedTester> ... this is purely for http and agree that bidi should be different
18:03:50 <AutomatedTester> ack AutomatedTester
18:04:54 <drousso> q+
18:05:00 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: I can't see the how the people trying to reuse findElement as they seem very different to me, could you elaborate it
18:05:17 <mathiasbynens> q+
18:05:19 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think that the DOM hierarchy would be on our side so we will be fine
18:05:22 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
18:05:53 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: ffor foolip: re: CSS piercing was seen as bad by other WG
18:06:30 <AutomatedTester> ... and for piercing we need to make sure that piercing the Shadow DOM needs to be explicit
18:07:12 <AutomatedTester> ... I think we should do the simple case first and see how it goes
18:07:17 <AutomatedTester> q?
18:07:22 <AutomatedTester> ack cb
18:07:26 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
18:07:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
18:08:17 <AutomatedTester> cb: I have a counter proposal. It would be good to extend element.findElement(withShadow=true) and that would look inside the shadow
18:08:33 <AutomatedTester> q?
18:08:50 <jgraham> q+
18:08:59 <AutomatedTester> jimevans: I don't have a problem with that approach either
18:09:06 <AutomatedTester> ... we just need to something
18:09:39 <AutomatedTester> ... the tricky bit we need to think about is that we have a new error code
18:10:06 <AutomatedTester> ... if you want inside a shadowRoot and we cant find it its because of the shadow dom and not the DOM
18:10:15 <AutomatedTester> q?
18:10:20 <AutomatedTester> ack drousso
18:11:26 <AutomatedTester> drousso: regarding piercing, I dont think that we want "special paths" for automation
18:11:49 <AutomatedTester> ... or these special paths need to be infrequent
18:11:51 <AutomatedTester> q?
18:11:57 <AutomatedTester> ack mathiasbynens
18:12:48 <AutomatedTester> mathiasbynens: in puppeteer we allow people to allow people register querySelectors on their own
18:12:59 <AutomatedTester> ... and then people can do what they want from there
18:13:26 <AutomatedTester> ... we have one called `pierce` that pierces shadowROot
18:13:37 <AutomatedTester> and one called `aria` for accessibility
18:13:47 <AutomatedTester> ... I think that playright does something similar
18:13:53 <AutomatedTester> q?
18:14:01 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
18:14:39 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: so looking at the PR we had this discussion 2 years ago
18:15:06 <AutomatedTester> ... the backwards compatiblity issue is that if we add new parameters then we can have silent failures
18:15:07 <mathiasbynens> To clarify, in Puppeteer you opt-in to shadow DOM piercing not through some new parameter, but by adding a prefix to the selector string. This was decided because that way, we can make it work for our 10+ APIs that accept selector strings
18:15:30 <AutomatedTester> ... the new end points mean you will get an explicit error here
18:15:51 <AutomatedTester> ... and that is better for everyone
18:17:41 <mathiasbynens> Puppeteer's built-in pierce handler: https://github.com/puppeteer/puppeteer/pull/6509/files
18:18:25 <AutomatedTester> Resolution: Write up spec prose based on jimevans proposal and the for future proposals in this area use the learning from other frameworks to see how we can improve
18:18:31 <AutomatedTester> github-bot: end topic
18:19:10 <AutomatedTester> Topic: BiDi roadmap
18:20:14 <AutomatedTester> foolip: I would like to get a good idea of how far we can go for clients and implementors. What is the MVP/product that we want o enable so that we have a North Star to aim for
18:21:13 <AutomatedTester> mathiasbynens: for puppeteer last year we met at Mozilla to get cross browser support
18:21:27 <AutomatedTester> ... puppeteer is great but it's built on CDP which isnt great
18:21:44 <AutomatedTester> ... and now we have playwright that's very different
18:22:04 <AutomatedTester> ... and playwright is shipping their own browsers
18:22:24 <AutomatedTester> ... which has a limitation that they can never get to Mobile.
18:23:35 <AutomatedTester> ... We see webdriver bidi as the missing piece for getting better support for multiple browsers and since each project has their limitations
18:23:55 <simonstewart> q?
18:24:00 <simonstewart> q+
18:24:06 <jgraham> q+
18:24:11 <AutomatedTester> ... we hope to use webdirver bidi and if need to use the escape hatch
18:25:04 <AutomatedTester> ... in chromium we hope to have a prototype by the end of next year for a few commands and the spec
18:25:29 <shengfa> q+
18:25:31 <AutomatedTester> q?
18:26:26 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: As far as selenium as concerned is to try increase the progress so that we can have a stable user API based on the use cases that we have discussed before
18:26:50 <AutomatedTester> ... and the ability to evolve APIs as needed
18:27:29 <AutomatedTester> ... and we dont want people's investments in selenium to be lost
18:27:31 <AutomatedTester> q?
18:27:33 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
18:28:19 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: Mozilla buys into this vision strongly. We are interested in browser interop concerns
18:28:41 <AutomatedTester> ... and we see a lot of feedback from the MDN survey that cross browser testing is hard
18:29:03 <AutomatedTester> ... and we want to work people here and with clients to make sure this all works
18:29:18 <AutomatedTester> ... I am currently working on spec stuff
18:29:28 <AutomatedTester> ... and I think we're on track to adding logging
18:29:48 <AutomatedTester> ... and I will likely look at realms
18:30:10 <AutomatedTester> ... and this will give us the infrastructure to be able to add more meaningful commands in the future
18:30:31 <AutomatedTester> ... and I want to get to a stage where we can get more people working on the spec
18:31:20 <AutomatedTester> ... in terms of implementation. We see this as a priority. We are currently finishing off site isolation but then will move back to this work
18:31:36 <foolip> q?
18:31:42 <AutomatedTester> ... I can't state where we will be by this time next year
18:31:54 <AutomatedTester> ... and I hope will resource it as best we can
18:31:56 <foolip> where do we *need* to get to by this time next year?
18:32:09 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
18:32:20 <AutomatedTester> ack shengfa
18:32:48 <AutomatedTester> shengfa: in terms of the roadmap... I would like to add that there should be some effort put into WPT
18:32:54 <jgraham> q+
18:33:03 <foolip> +1 +1 +100 :)
18:33:06 <AutomatedTester> ... so that we can get some references into the pipeline early
18:33:35 <AutomatedTester> ... I am currently trying to add websockets to  wpt
18:33:56 <AutomatedTester> ... and we need to be able have an async style of testing
18:34:14 <AutomatedTester> ... and we need to do commands and perhaps /status would be a good place to start
18:34:18 <shengfa> WIP: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/commit/61e6da80428d49f8e6efe779658596b6b38e53e4
18:34:21 <AutomatedTester> q?
18:34:33 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
18:34:59 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: this is exciting that we are doing this straight away
18:35:16 <AutomatedTester> ... and if I can help with reviewing let me know
18:35:28 <foolip> q+
18:35:28 <AutomatedTester> ... and it would be good to see a RFC for this work
18:35:50 <AutomatedTester> q+
18:35:56 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
18:36:18 <AutomatedTester> foolip: I would like to summarise and exaggerate what mathiasbynens and jgraham said
18:37:12 <AutomatedTester> ... for browsers having bidi and having tests that pass and using CDP as an escape to CDP
18:37:48 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: that sounds like a good goal and the right direction of the work
18:38:00 <AutomatedTester> ... it's hard to predict how far we will get but its a good idea
18:38:14 <AutomatedTester> ... it would be good to move Selenium over first
18:38:49 <AutomatedTester> ... and prevent baking in CDP items to Selenium
18:39:06 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: if we could migrate Selenium first that would be awesome
18:39:32 <AutomatedTester> foolip: just to check, this is for new APIS and not rewriting APIs
18:40:09 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: yea, this is for new APIs so that we don't ahve to rebuilding APIs with each Chromium release
18:40:13 <foolip> q?
18:40:25 <jgraham> ack AutomatedTester
18:41:10 <AutomatedTester> ack AutomatedTester
18:41:18 <AutomatedTester> AutomatedTester: are we moving things to Py3?
18:41:36 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: Yes, WPT is by the end of the year
18:41:37 <foolip> Feb 1, 2021 is a date that's been thrown around.
18:42:31 <AutomatedTester> ... there might be something interesting question of 3.6 vs 3.7
18:42:41 <AutomatedTester> ... we have seen that people are moving across
18:43:13 <AutomatedTester> shengfa: There is a plan to do py3 first vs py3 only
18:43:22 <AutomatedTester> ... there are plans for other scenarios
18:43:55 <foolip> q+
18:44:06 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: yes, py3 by the end year for being run first and then a month later it will be py3 only. There will be an RFC "soon"
18:44:14 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
18:45:07 <AutomatedTester> foolip: to our webkit friends, are there client libraries or support for other that are more important than bidi?
18:45:23 <AutomatedTester> drousso: our focus is on standardized or will be standardized
18:45:41 <AutomatedTester> ... we are more interested in webdriver vs others
18:46:29 <AutomatedTester> ... we have a number of security concerns with automation that we can't guarantee with other clients
18:47:10 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
18:47:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
18:49:01 <cb> proposal: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/pull/1552
18:49:28 <jgraham> q+
18:49:47 <AutomatedTester> topic: Async Session Creation
18:49:59 <AutomatedTester> Github Topic: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver/pull/1552
18:50:32 <AutomatedTester> cb: So the idea is we async session creation job
18:51:02 <AutomatedTester> ... that has a defined set of events
18:51:35 <AutomatedTester> ... and it has the ability to check that session ID creation
18:51:47 <AutomatedTester> ... it has 3 endpoints
18:52:20 <AutomatedTester> ... the question is where does the session get the session ID back from
18:52:48 <AutomatedTester> ... if we allow a single event or all events
18:52:51 <AutomatedTester> q?
18:53:27 <simonstewart> q+
18:53:41 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think this should be targeted at browser implementations as it seems really good for areas where are a lot of latency like grid or cloud providers
18:54:23 <AutomatedTester> ... I also am not sure that I can say that this is hard to justify the time to implement it there
18:54:35 <AutomatedTester> ... my suggest is specify in a different spec
18:54:47 <AutomatedTester> ... or make it optional for end nodes
18:55:09 <AutomatedTester> q?
18:55:13 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
18:55:16 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
18:55:49 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: I think you're right it's important for grid and I see what you mean by resourcing
18:56:28 <AutomatedTester> ... in a new spec is overkill
18:56:47 <AutomatedTester> ... and we can definitely mark this as a _may_
18:58:05 <AutomatedTester> cb: The main thing for us to make sure that have enough time to get the machines ready at sauce and we don't need to have it like it is
18:58:40 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I think the main use case is definitely yours and I dont think browser vendors should stop you from speccing it
18:59:41 <AutomatedTester> Resolution: Add this to webdriver http and mark the new command as a MAY
18:59:50 <whimboo> present +
18:59:53 <foolip> I have to run, thanks everyone! (son is calling)
19:02:09 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: bye
19:02:09 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
19:02:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webdriver
19:02:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-webdriver-irc
19:03:05 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
19:03:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-webdriver-minutes.html AutomatedTester
19:03:44 <AutomatedTester> it's lost the async stuff
19:03:46 <jgraham> Nope, all OK
19:04:04 <AutomatedTester> oh... just slow
19:04:06 <jgraham> RRSAgent: stop