13:40:58 RRSAgent has joined #media-pubs 13:40:58 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-media-pubs-irc 13:41:00 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:41:01 Meeting: Media Publishers of the Web, Unite! 13:41:05 chair: Robin 13:41:12 agenda: https://www.w3.org/2020/10/TPAC/breakout-schedule.html#media-pubs 13:41:27 chair: Robin_Berjon 13:41:27 hi! 13:43:33 dauwhe has joined #media-pubs 13:46:03 plh has joined #media-pubs 13:49:56 dsinger has joined #media-pubs 13:57:25 kris_chapman has joined #media-pubs 13:59:19 tzviya has joined #media-pubs 13:59:41 present+ Tzviya_Siegman 14:00:05 present+ dsinger 14:00:05 cpn has joined #media-pubs 14:00:52 SeanH has joined #media-pubs 14:00:56 joshua_koran has joined #media-pubs 14:01:05 present+ 14:01:09 wseltzer has joined #media-pubs 14:01:15 present+ 14:01:35 scribe+ dauwhe 14:01:36 marisa has joined #media-pubs 14:01:39 dom has joined #media-pubs 14:01:45 Avneesh has joined #media-pubs 14:01:49 AramZS has joined #media-pubs 14:01:50 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #media-pubs 14:01:57 present+ 14:01:57 robin: I don't think it's necessary to scribe the slides 14:01:59 dmarti has joined #media-pubs 14:02:11 Ralph: we are planning to record the introduction 14:02:34 ... we would like to record the discussion, but if anyone objects we won't do it 14:02:49 danyao has joined #media-pubs 14:02:50 dsinger: what would you do with the discussion recording? 14:02:57 jeff has joined #media-pubs 14:02:59 Ralph: we'd post it on the website 14:03:07 cwilso has joined #media-pubs 14:03:12 ... I'm hearing objections, so we won't record the discussion. 14:03:12 present+ 14:03:16 takio has joined #media-pubs 14:03:20 present+ Chris_Needham 14:03:32 robin: [starting presentation] 14:03:37 present+ 14:03:45 Karen has joined #media-pubs 14:03:53 present+ 14:03:55 florian_irc has joined #media-pubs 14:03:56 ... [restarts zoom] 14:04:02 jensimmons has joined #media-pubs 14:04:11 present+ 14:04:34 present+ 14:05:03 robin: can you hear me now 14:05:05 all: yes 14:05:09 Yanni has joined #media-pubs 14:05:22 ... welcome to "media publishers of the web unite" 14:05:36 ... I'll present a few slides quickly 14:05:54 robin: these are my opinions, and the slides are opinionted 14:06:09 ... these do not represent the views of my employer 14:06:27 ... the perception is that publishers don't show up for standards, and then complain 14:06:39 ... and then other people claim to speak for publishers 14:06:45 ... what do we actually want? 14:06:56 ... ponies and cool website features :) 14:07:06 ... but we need two other things 14:07:13 ... 1. we need to be trustworthy 14:07:22 ... 2. we need to make money. 14:07:27 ... journalism is expensive 14:07:39 ... huge volumes of work go into most articles 14:07:58 ... we have a financial model based on betraying the trust of our readers 14:08:17 ... what's up with all that tracking? 14:08:33 ... news publishers are the worst for 3rd party trackers 14:08:44 ... people are angry because they have expectations of privacy 14:08:54 ... and they expect browsers to work for them 14:09:05 ... readers *do* trust the publishers 14:09:18 ... but that trust is not transitive--people don't trust the 3rd parties 14:09:26 ... people talk about the supply chain in ad tech 14:09:45 ... it's astoundingly complex 14:10:04 ... most publishers can't control this supply chain when they involve 3rd parties 14:10:14 ... tracking-based ads are a problem, but they decrease trust 14:10:30 ... in the publisher, and thus decrease trust in the news 14:10:36 ... which harms democracy 14:10:45 ... it's just not working. 14:10:59 ... newsrooms had been cut in half 14:11:03 ... even before covid 14:11:17 ... users are fighting back. adblockers... 14:11:33 ... how can we fix this? 14:11:54 ... throw in transparency and choice? that's just cookie consent dialogs. That's not an improvement. 14:11:59 ... we need a better web. 14:12:11 ... we need technical means to move to a saner model. 14:12:21 ... privacy can increase audience value. 14:12:44 ... this can only work if browsers are trustworthy 14:12:58 -> https://globalprivacycontrol.github.io/gpc-spec/ GPC 14:13:04 ... if your website remove trackers, but the browser is tracking your reading history you haven't solved the problem 14:13:14 ... we need the priority of consituencies 14:13:25 ... we have it now in exactly the wrong order 14:13:31 wseltzer: what is SSO? 14:13:35 robin: single sign on 14:13:43 ... what about the content? 14:14:01 ... content used to be contextualized; articles were in order, you knew the provenance 14:14:06 ... now everything looks the same 14:14:15 ... context is what anchors trust 14:14:30 ... if your articles are removed from the context, you lose the trust relationship 14:14:38 ... content aggregation today is problematic 14:14:53 ... decontextualized content is less trustworthy 14:15:35 ... content aggregation provides a worse user experience, increases tracking, and lower the revenue of journalism 14:15:44 ... how can we fix this? 14:15:58 ... we put together a document on CAT (content aggregation tech) 14:16:09 ... the web is pretty good at this, but there are incremental improvements 14:16:16 -> https://nytimes.github.io/std-cat/ CAT 14:16:22 ... we can better indicate provenance 14:16:37 ... this was a high-speed introduction. thanks for putting up with my ranting :) 14:16:43 q+ 14:16:48 ... there's a bunch of publisher-specific problems 14:17:00 ... we want publishers to speak up and have opinions 14:17:08 ... here are some cool links 14:17:24 ... and the floor is entirely yours. Speak up! Complain! Push back! 14:17:33 q? 14:17:33 q? 14:17:45 q+ 14:17:53 ack jeff 14:17:55 jeff: thanks Robin 14:18:07 ... for that mildly provocative set of thoughts 14:18:11 ... could you say a bit more? 14:18:16 rstringham has joined #media-pubs 14:18:17 stank has joined #media-pubs 14:18:19 Global Privacy Control (GPC) spec https://globalprivacycontrol.github.io/gpc-spec/ 14:18:19 GPC site https://globalprivacycontrol.org/ 14:18:19 How The New York Times Things About Your Privacy https://open.nytimes.com/how-the-new-york-times-thinks-about-your-privacy-bc07d2171531 14:18:21 Content Aggregation Technology (CAT) spec https://nytimes.github.io/std-cat/ 14:18:23 The News Provenance Project https://www.newsprovenanceproject.com/ 14:18:24 ... most of the preso was a list of problem on the web 14:18:25 What If Every News Photo on Social Media Showed Contextual Information? https://open.nytimes.com/what-if-every-news-photo-on-social-media-showed-contextual-information-8936cf4e8c45 14:18:27 How Publishers Can Use Metadata to Fight Visual Misinformation https://rd.nytimes.com/projects/how-publishers-can-use-metadata-to-fight-visual-misinformation 14:18:33 ... the silver bullet was content aggregation technology 14:18:39 ... how does that fix the problems? 14:18:44 robin: there are no silver bullets 14:18:56 ... one section was privacy issues, one was CAT issues 14:19:03 ... CAT is not a solution to privacy problems 14:19:14 ... it's only a proposal to move towards a solution in the content space 14:19:22 ... but it has a great acronym :) 14:19:27 q+ to ask about the alternatives 14:19:28 q+ 14:19:37 q+ 14:19:39 robin: are there other publishers here? I see at least one 14:19:55 q? 14:19:58 ack 14:19:58 tzviya: I'm with wiley; we are a scholarly and higher ed publisher 14:20:00 ack tzviya 14:20:20 ... yesterday we talked about the history of EPUB, and focused on the trade publishing 14:20:28 ... we rely on third parties for distribution 14:20:37 ... we're not reliaant on ad revenue 14:20:44 ... but we have no control over distribution 14:20:56 ... so there's overlap 14:20:59 uhm lemmie give it a try wseltzer. This will be the first time 14:21:16 for me 14:21:18 ... so media publishers should collaborate. There's common ground around provenance. 14:21:20 ack dsinger 14:21:20 dsinger, you wanted to ask about the alternatives 14:21:25 dsinger: Dave Singer, Apple 14:21:32 s/uhm lemmie give it a try wseltzer. This will be the first time// 14:21:35 s/for me// 14:21:36 ... Q: it seems our alternatives are not good 14:21:44 q- 14:21:47 ... Robin has commented on content aggregation not being ideal 14:21:56 ... I'm often sent to news sites by my friend 14:22:09 ... and then I might have to create an account, login, and pay 14:22:18 ... which I'm unlikely to do 14:22:26 ... are micropayments an alternative? 14:22:36 robin: briefly... two things 14:22:42 ... there's payment and identity 14:22:48 q+ re web-adv conversations 14:22:52 ... we need better identity management 14:23:08 q+ on provenance projects 14:23:09 ... we could log in to provide relationship-building affordance taht would be good 14:23:28 ... micropayments would be difficult for us--we can't put a price on a single article 14:23:38 ... but there might be hybrid models 14:23:56 ... we could have an increment of paywalls... a few free hits, a few micro hits, then a subscriber 14:23:59 q+ 14:24:05 ack AramZS 14:24:08 igarashi_ has joined #media-pubs 14:24:34 AramZS: lots of people are thinking about what publishers can do in w3c 14:24:35 q+ 14:24:45 ... you can bring engineering staff to look at other parts 14:25:04 ... at WaPo we've brought people into conversations about CSS, HTML 14:25:15 ... it's good to be ahead of the wave on these standards 14:25:31 ... even listenting about how we can build better websites is helpful 14:25:41 ... CSS is important to our business, too 14:26:01 robin: I focused on broad areas of work 14:26:18 MikeSmith has joined #media-pubs 14:26:20 ... the way we render our headlines involve a headless browser to measure before re-tweaking 14:26:27 ... that should be solved at the CSS level 14:26:31 ack wseltzer 14:26:31 wseltzer, you wanted to discuss web-adv conversations 14:26:53 wseltzer: I wanted to mention the improving web advertising Business Group 14:27:01 present+ 14:27:04 q+ 14:27:11 ... ways to support privacy in targeted advertising 14:27:20 ... there are lots of W3C working groups that might be relevant 14:27:44 q+ 14:27:51 ... it could be helpful to have CG or IGs to identify issues, like the media/entertainment group for that area 14:27:58 ack cpn 14:27:58 cpn, you wanted to comment on provenance projects 14:28:09 cpn: Chris Needham, BBC 14:28:16 ... and co-chair of the media IG 14:28:25 ... my Q was about the provenance issues 14:28:39 ... origins, trusted news... is there value on consolidating these efforts? 14:28:58 ... second Q: what's the role of W3C in these initiatives? are there technologies to look at? 14:29:15 robin: I think the news provenance project is an issue of origins 14:29:16 link to project origin? 14:29:32 ... that's been my feedback... there's a lot of companies working on this 14:29:50 ... this requires standards. Don't know if it's one standard or a series of standards. 14:29:59 ... claims/credentials WG 14:30:09 ack dmarti 14:30:12 ... there might be some convergance, and maybe need for new stuff 14:30:20 dmarti: robins' point on SSO 14:30:44 RRSAgent, make minutes 14:30:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-media-pubs-minutes.html MikeSmith 14:30:49 ... as the user experience for SSO bevcomes easier, the ability to get ??? gets harder 14:31:06 Project Origin: http://www.originproject.info/ 14:31:08 ... so we need control and consent management, the global privacy control 14:31:14 q+ to comment on CredWeb and Verifiable Credentials 14:31:19 ack joshua_koran 14:31:24 ... and there's another consent management proposal 14:31:52 joshua_koran: i heard two kinds of trust--trust in content, which is accuracy and provenance 14:32:08 sauski has joined #media-pubs 14:32:08 ... and we don't want the publisher to betray their users 14:32:28 ... what about advertiser's trust? Is that related to pseudononymous IDs? 14:32:39 hober has joined #media-pubs 14:32:48 robin: advertisers could benefit from a higher-trust environment 14:32:54 present+ 14:32:56 ... there's a huge amount of fraud in ad tech 14:33:03 ... intermediaries don't want to fix this 14:33:16 ... having a priority of constituencies that involves brands would be valuable 14:33:28 ... I don't think pseudononymous IDs can solve this 14:33:40 ... they work for domains with strong governance, like clinical trials 14:33:53 ... strict rules, systematic audits, layers of bureaucracy 14:34:00 ... we don't have that in ad tech 14:34:19 ... I don't thing we want that level of bureaucracy for a universal ID 14:34:32 q? 14:34:34 ... there are better ways of proving something was delivered 14:34:46 ...there are probablistic ways... frequency capping(?) 14:34:55 ack Karen 14:34:57 ... pseudononymous ids are not the solution 14:35:10 q+ 14:35:20 Karen: you mentioned some pricing scenarios... free articles > micropayments > subscriptions 14:35:25 q+ 14:35:29 ... are publishers testing different pricing models 14:35:37 ... there's monetized video content 14:35:45 ... there's ab testing of different offers 14:35:50 ... have publishers done this 14:35:52 robin: yes 14:36:02 AramZS: yes, we test a lot 14:36:02 q- 14:36:15 ... we have guardrails for these tests so they're not harmful to users 14:36:23 ... monetaztion is hard, we work on it a lot 14:36:32 ... we haven't done much with micropayments 14:36:39 ... some people have partnered with scroll 14:36:47 ... which is more like a share of something 14:36:52 ... there is a lot of testing 14:37:01 AramZS: the WaPo does UX Lab 14:37:07 ... we work on ethics codes 14:37:19 ... we did some micropayment experimentation 14:37:24 ... the problem is transaction fees 14:37:37 ack jensimmons 14:37:38 ... there is a web monetization group in w3c... Coil is a player there 14:38:00 jensimmons: could you talk about the CAT spec you drafted? what are you hoping to solve? 14:38:20 robin: CAT is not a specification. bring a problem before you bring a solution 14:38:23 ... it does two things 14:38:34 ... it provides a framework to rate options 14:38:35 q? 14:38:41 ali has joined #media-pubs 14:38:43 ... and compare options 14:38:52 ... and it outlines some possible areas to work on 14:39:00 ashkan has joined #media-pubs 14:39:02 ... to bring the web closer to the proprietary options 14:39:03 q+ 14:39:11 ... it's a framework and an invitation for discussion 14:39:24 ack tzviya 14:39:24 tzviya, you wanted to comment on CredWeb and Verifiable Credentials 14:39:26 ... i hope publishers and aggregators would work together 14:39:57 tzviya: someone asked about verifiable credentials and misinformation 14:40:03 https://credweb.org/ 14:40:05 ... there is a credweb CG 14:40:24 ... that was looking at how to write standards for crediblity 14:40:28 RRSAgent, make minutes 14:40:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/28-media-pubs-minutes.html MikeSmith 14:40:28 q+ to contrast point technologies with business models 14:40:34 q- 14:40:36 ... newsqueue(?) was involved; politifact 14:40:49 ... they had explored that model, but were more interested in RDFa 14:41:06 ... if anyone wants to help wiht that group, please join 14:41:23 ... verifiable credentials does not require blockchain 14:41:36 ... there is a group on decentralized identity 14:41:43 ack kris_chapman 14:41:52 s/newsqueue/NewsQ 14:42:30 kris_chapman: one concern around monetization... I worry people will pivot away from credible organizations 14:42:40 q+ to mention fake news 14:42:54 ... are there studies to counter the move to less credible free online sources 14:43:03 AramZS: good question 14:43:04 q- 14:43:12 robin: I'd like to see some studies 14:43:22 ... we need to figure out free access business models 14:43:34 ... I'd like to see good ad-supported models 14:43:49 ... you can't afford full-subscription models without ads 14:44:02 ... we need to make ads work in a way that's not user-hostile 14:44:04 ack florian_irc 14:44:13 florian_irc: re: CAT 14:44:29 ... let's call it the ex-IDPF-centric part of the industry 14:44:40 ... they don't have CAT, but there are similar problems 14:44:56 Yeah, or in comics, publishing is often subsidized by a real revenue mix 14:45:01 ... could you broaden the scope of CAT to include these things 14:45:20 robin: Dave C made a twitter case for the links between the situations 14:45:29 ... I fear we will dilute some work if we're not careful 14:45:39 q+ to ask about other areas of human endeavor with a remuneration problem 14:45:43 ... we can share analysis of problems, but the solutions might be divergent 14:45:52 ... whatever venue might be the right place... 14:46:02 ... we brought it to WICG because it was easiest 14:46:05 ack jeff 14:46:05 jeff, you wanted to contrast point technologies with business models 14:46:31 jeff: a lot of this converstation has focused on point technogies, and some on business models 14:46:47 ... tracking, micropayments, CAT are examples of the point technogies 14:47:06 ... but working on that in the absence of. a business model could lead us in the wrong direction 14:47:18 ... but if we had a business model, that could lead to the point technologies 14:47:30 ... where would we talk about the business models? 14:47:33 robin: I agree 14:47:56 ... it might be easiest to split the busienss discussion... split out direct payments from advertising 14:48:06 ... the web ads group had several use case docs 14:48:34 +1 would the proposed DIG interest group be a good forum to discuss and document business models to provide input to solutions? 14:48:36 ... it has a strong, clear list of use cases, and goes into good detail around the business model 14:48:55 -> https://github.com/w3c/web-advertising/blob/master/support_for_advertising_use_cases.md Advertising Use Cases Document 14:48:59 ... instead of jumping into identifiers etc, let's try to think about other ways of solving the same use cases 14:49:13 ... and we could have another doc on subscriptions, payment models, identity... 14:49:20 ... Aram cited some CGs 14:49:33 jeff: CGs are often focused on point technologies 14:49:38 +1 to documenting the use cases of subscription and micropayment. 14:49:42 ... maybe you need something else 14:49:46 robin: open to a BG 14:49:56 ack dsinger 14:49:56 dsinger, you wanted to ask about other areas of human endeavor with a remuneration problem 14:50:02 AramZS: we have a lot of folks that work on ads, and separate folks that work on payment modes/paywall 14:50:13 q? 14:50:14 dsinger: is there an inventory of possible business models? 14:50:30 ... this looks like the problem of musicians and radio broadcasts from the past 14:50:53 ... that seems related to EU seeking payment for search engines 14:50:57 q+ 14:51:24 ... an analysis of CAT, subscription, targeted advertising, micropayments, radio payments--analyzing the plusses and minues might insprire some new ideas 14:51:32 ... is such an effort underway? 14:51:37 robin: there's not a shared effort 14:51:42 ... we think about this a lot 14:51:47 ... as do our trade organizations 14:51:56 ... but there's nothing publicly documented 14:52:25 ... but convening a standards group... like the approach jeff mentioned; what could be done and what innovations are possible 14:52:33 ... the comparison with music comes up a lot 14:52:47 ... which worries me, because musicians did not end up in a good place 14:52:55 ... and news is different than entertainment 14:53:06 +1 to recognizing the differences between music and publishing 14:53:06 ... putting a price on news is fraught 14:53:22 ack AramZS 14:53:25 ... thinking about publishing business models would be valuable 14:53:38 AramZS: bringing that knowledge into a CG is useful 14:53:44 q+ 14:54:00 ... bringing our business model knowledge into a privacy CG seems to be welcomed, and has an impact 14:54:03 yes, I recognize that the radio reporting model has problems (but so do subscriptions, targeted advertising, micropayments, and aggregation) 14:54:07 q? 14:54:28 tzviya: re: business models 14:54:39 ack tzviya 14:54:45 ... it's good to look at prior work, but we need to be cautioous 14:54:52 ... we are different than the music industry 14:55:13 ... it's not just how things are paid for, contracts, content... it's all different. It's dangerous. 14:55:31 q? 14:55:33 ... we need to embrace that publishing is different--in fact four different industries. but there is overlap. 14:55:45 q+ 14:55:48 AramZS: do you want to conclude? 14:55:56 robin: I want to open the door to future discussions 14:55:58 q= 14:56:04 q+ 14:56:25 ... if you are interested in publishing, please come together. We've listed years worth of issues 14:56:35 ... the NYT is excited to work on this stuff 14:56:43 ack jeff 14:56:45 jeff: process question 14:56:58 ... anything specific robin needs from W3T? 14:57:09 robin: I don't know what next steps are 14:57:29 ... maybe a workshop? But this is the worst time in history for this 14:57:38 ... maybe a strategy funnel conversation with wseltzer 14:57:52 q+ re virtual workshops 14:58:00 jeff: we've had several virtual workshops 14:58:14 Can we lock the queue? I don't remember the command 14:58:21 zakim, close queue 14:58:21 ok, wseltzer, the speaker queue is closed 14:58:23 ... we had a machine intelligence workshop led to a proposal for a new WG 14:58:24 ack dsinger 14:58:24 q? 14:58:44 dsinger: the AB has worried about the propogation about fake news 14:58:50 lgombos_ has joined #media-pubs 14:58:51 ... we had a panel about that 14:59:14 ... I would love to see people engaged about that, and about our impacts on society 14:59:20 robin: I completely agree 14:59:34 ... the work on CAT is also about trust and context 14:59:35 ack wseltzer 14:59:35 wseltzer, you wanted to discuss virtual workshops 14:59:51 wseltzer: happy to talk about workshops, virtual sessions, etc 14:59:58 robin: thanks everyone 15:03:54