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13:11:06 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/10/26-online-harms-irc
13:11:08 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:11:09 <Zakim> Meeting: Online Harms – a European and UK perspective
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14:32:09 <ivan> zakim, start meeting
14:32:09 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:32:10 <Zakim> Meeting: Online Harms – a European and UK perspective
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15:00:35 <Bert> present+
15:00:37 <ivan> present+
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15:01:00 <dka_> present+ Dan Appelquist
15:01:39 <jrosewell> present+
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15:03:00 <dsinger> present+
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15:06:45 <James> What is the zoom password?
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15:07:26 <brent> present+ Brent_Zundel
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15:08:34 <dom> Present+
15:10:30 <weiler> present+
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15:23:07 <wseltzer> [note that W3C has a strong royalty-free patent policy]
15:23:32 <wseltzer> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Patent-Policy/
15:24:14 <wseltzer> q+ re RF commitment, submission?
15:25:26 <Joshue108> present+
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15:27:42 <wseltzer> q+ re assertions about companies
15:29:50 <jrosewell> wseltzer yes
15:30:08 <jeff> q+
15:30:24 <weiler> ack ws
15:30:24 <Zakim> wseltzer, you wanted to discuss RF commitment, submission? and to discuss assertions about companies
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15:32:19 <jrosewell> no scribe I'm afraid
15:32:21 <dom> jeff: very much against online harms
15:32:31 <dom> ... please to see actions to cure online harms
15:32:44 <dom> ... the lack of success around PICS and POWDER is full of lessons for us
15:33:01 <dom> ... W3C doesn't legislate, we're a voluntary standards organization
15:33:12 <dom> ... we also do much better on tech standardization than we do on policy
15:33:27 <dom> ... my impression from your presentation is that there is quite a bit of intermixing of the two in your proposal
15:33:34 <jrosewell> q+
15:33:36 <dom> ... we would need to tease out where W3C can contribute
15:33:37 <dsinger> q+ to ask about definitions
15:33:39 <wseltzer> ack jeff
15:33:59 <dom> ... I like the idea of a Member submissions, which would help clarify what is technical in nature for which we have a process to help go through standardization as they mature
15:34:12 <dom> ... whereas for policy, we have no consensus to work on policy-related matters
15:34:29 <dom> ... we know how to standardize metadata, but we're not the place for enforcement
15:34:46 <dom> ... we have extensive means in W3C to bring communities together and bring proposals to standards
15:35:03 <dom> James: fwiw, this is first and foremost an awareness session
15:35:24 <dom> Jeff: I was responding on the optimistic projections from Alistair that W3C could solve this in 6 months!
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15:35:42 <dom> James: Alistair is dedicated to fixing this problem
15:36:10 <dom> Alistair: the opportunity here is, as member of the digital production partnership, and we look at managed metadata for videos
15:36:30 <dom> ... by getting ofcom to put some recommednations on what the standards metadata should have
15:36:43 <dom> ... and then have middleware deployed throughout the world to react to this metadta
15:36:51 <dom> ... that's what the opportunity is
15:36:54 <dom> s/dta/data/
15:37:07 <dom> ... this would enable effective child protection in a matter of months, not years
15:37:31 <dom> ... by using practices and technical standards, there are ways to circumvent some of the adoption difficulties
15:37:37 <wseltzer> ack next
15:37:39 <wseltzer> ack next
15:37:40 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to ask about definitions
15:38:10 <dom> DavidSinger: a few years ago I moderated a panel at the AC meeting around fake news & moderation around what Internet harms
15:38:36 <dom> ... "fake" is only relative to "truth", which is notoriously hard to agree upon
15:38:55 <dom> ... "might harm" seems likewise hard to interpret
15:39:04 <dom> ... this intersects with the right to free expression
15:39:30 <dom> ... you talked about unintended consequences - I'm fearful of the consequences of these vaguely worded statements
15:39:57 <dom> ... to what extent is it a societal problem vs a parental problem vs a free speech problem?
15:40:02 <dom> ... very delicate balances to find
15:40:12 <dom> .... not sure the very heavy handed regulation is the right way to go
15:40:23 <dom> Alistair: I'm not proposing a heavy handed regulatory regime
15:40:28 <dom> ... I say there is a spectrum of content
15:40:35 <dka_> q?
15:40:36 <dka_> q+
15:40:39 <dom> ... it would be quite a debate whether something would cause a child a fright or not
15:40:52 <dom> ... but you knew exactly whta content was at the extremes
15:41:09 <dom> ... you could classify people in categories, and use big data to help people make decisions
15:41:32 <dom> ... we know that in the UK, you've had a television watershed - the most salacious program have tended to be shown later and later at night
15:41:52 <dom> ... so looking at the original broadcast time of a program, then it may contain salacious content; not so if shown early in the morning
15:41:59 <dom> ... this could be used to classify our present content
15:42:16 <dom> ... on top of that, you could put forward dispute procedures to re-classify content from level 4 to level 3
15:42:22 <dom> ... using a 3rd party support
15:42:47 <dom> ... In addition to SafeCast, we have SafeCheck which is designed for professional people to certify whether content complies with specific standards
15:42:54 <dom> ... using the SafeCheck trademark to ensure compliance
15:43:04 <jamesn> q?
15:43:11 <dom> ... we're in discussion with regulators to make this a voluntary standard to make this area properly managed
15:43:24 <dom> ... We're not talking about censorship; adults would always be able to see the content
15:43:39 <dom> James: does that address the question about the role of parents?
15:43:55 <dom> Alistair: Parents needs assistance - we're trying to give parents the tools that they need to protect their children
15:44:09 <dom> ... the internet is a kind of baby sitter in a lot of ways
15:44:11 <wseltzer> s/needs/need/
15:44:23 <dom> ... we have ensured that you can use th school age of a child to balance this properly
15:44:36 <dom> ... so that kids can share among their peers without causing them unnecessary harms
15:44:37 <dsinger> q+ to mention "on the internet…"
15:44:47 <dom> James: it's helping the parents, not just a substitute
15:44:57 <dom> DavidS: at the moment, people on the internet are unidentified
15:45:02 <wseltzer> ack ds
15:45:02 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to mention "on the internet…"
15:45:21 <dom> ... allowing tools to see if there is a child at the end of the conversation would allow targetting children specifically
15:45:38 <dom> ... "on the internet nobody knows you're a dog" is not as true as it used to be due to tracking
15:45:52 <dom> ... but there remains an advantage is the relative anonymity of the end user
15:46:21 <dom> ... once you know that you can't show pornography because the user is a child, then the child could become a target for manipulation by the site
15:46:49 <dom> Alistair: by embedding the limitation in the metadata, we're allowing to filter the media away
15:46:57 <weiler> q+
15:46:57 <wseltzer> q?
15:46:58 <dom> DavidS: but the site can detect that it wasn't fetched
15:47:07 <weiler> q+ to clarify dsinger's point
15:47:13 <dom> Alistair: but there is not feedback here
15:47:25 <dom> DavidS: this can be worked around
15:47:37 <weiler> q-
15:47:39 <dom> James: this highlights the challenge of solving that issue
15:47:44 <wseltzer> ack dka_
15:47:57 <dom> DKA: +1 to David Singer on the potential abuses
15:48:07 <dom> ... we are in a different age when it comes to online harms, esp to children
15:48:26 <kleber_> David Singer is definitely correct: there is no technical solution to filtering without anyone being able to tell that filtering has happened
15:48:43 <dom> ... pornography & adult content is one type, but both as a parent and as a technologist, I'm a lot more concerned with grooming, sexting, children being groomed into cults such as QAnon
15:48:56 <dom> ... being groomed into alt-right conspiracy followers
15:49:05 <jrosewell> q?
15:49:23 <dom> ... there are a lot of kind of online harms happening outside of content delivered to browsers , via social media
15:49:32 <jyasskin> q+ to mention "incentives to label accurately, and danger to trans kids whose parents don't want them to be trans"
15:49:33 <dom> ... Every OS has parental controls built-in
15:49:45 <dom> ... given that online harms is bigger than the browsers
15:49:59 <dom> ... also locking in a given browser or a given browser gives a false sense of security
15:50:12 <dom> ... e.g. TOR can be used to work around network blocking
15:50:27 <dom> ... any device where software can be installed can be used to work around these limitations
15:50:51 <dom> ... device-based systems feel more effective - you can lock down different type of contents, but you can also limit what additional browser/software can be installed
15:51:24 <dom> ... it feels the focus of the proposal is from a decade in the past - we need to look to the harms of today's internet
15:51:52 <dom> Alistair: Ofcom is regulating this space and determines how they go about it
15:52:19 <dom> ... what we've been looking at how to let the technology help with that
15:52:33 <dom> ... usage of TOR by children, esp young children (<13 years) is very limited
15:53:15 <dom> ... it needs to be possible that children are safe, not being groomed via a 2nd hand mobile phone that would be given to them
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15:53:30 <dom> ... we have a discussion with the Home office
15:53:40 <dom> ... what we're proposing is being looked upon seriously
15:54:01 <dom> James: on one hand, we have an argument that it is up to lawmakers to make up what's needed
15:54:09 <dom> ... and then technology organizations need to support that
15:54:24 <dom> ... vs how effective these approaches can be, and the risk around censorship
15:54:25 <dom> q?
15:54:28 <weiler> q?
15:54:45 <dom> James: you mentioned April as a timeline for the UK
15:54:53 <dom> ... what can we expect from the EU?
15:55:11 <dom> Alistair: at the moment, Spain is having a consultation on online harms similar to what the UK did at the end of September
15:55:17 <jrosewell> q?
15:55:25 <dom> ... the report that I've seen on the submissions is very similar to the UK's
15:55:45 <dom> ... I would hope that the UK's proposals are going to be such that they will be accepted as effective right away across all the EU
15:55:51 <dom> ... that we won't have a divergence of standards
15:56:10 <dom> ... that the UK will show the way which will be in compliance with what the European Commission will do in this space
15:56:16 <wseltzer> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/26-online-harms-minutes.html wseltzer
15:56:18 <dom> ... there is no difference between the UK & EU goals
15:56:59 <dom> ... French legilislation is going through, Germany is going through Länders as well
15:57:07 <dom> ... but COVID has slowed down these discussions
15:57:13 <dom> ack jyasskin
15:57:13 <Zakim> jyasskin, you wanted to mention "incentives to label accurately, and danger to trans kids whose parents don't want them to be trans"
15:57:31 <dom> Jeffrey: I wanted to worry about labeling content as harmful when it shouldn't be
15:57:56 <dom> ... e.g. youtube labeling LGBT content has mature, even though it is similar to non-LGBT non-mature content
15:58:00 <dka_> +1
15:58:03 <wseltzer> s/has/as/
15:58:14 <dom> ... likewise, had a friend who really needed access to that content as support
15:58:28 <dom> Alistair: wholeheartedly agree on this
15:58:32 <jrosewell> q?
15:58:41 <dom> ... we had a video on this last year
15:58:52 <wseltzer> s/no scribe I'm afraid/scribenick: dom
15:58:55 <dom> ... I'm more than happy to continue to conversation - feel free to get in touch with me
15:59:13 <dom> James: thank you for preparing this presentation - not an easy topic
15:59:25 <dom> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
15:59:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/26-online-harms-minutes.html dom
15:59:38 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
15:59:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Bert, ivan, Dan, Appelquist, jrosewell, jeff, Tatsuya_Igarashi, Janina, dsinger, Karima, Alan, wseltzer, Brent_Zundel, dom, weiler, Joshue
15:59:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:59:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/26-online-harms-minutes.html Zakim
15:59:43 <jrosewell> And thank you Dom for scribing.
15:59:44 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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16:00:15 <wseltzer> chair: James_Rosewell
16:00:30 <wseltzer> s/What is the zoom password?//
16:00:40 <wseltzer> s/wseltzer yes//
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16:02:12 <wseltzer> i|very much against|wseltzer: Pointing out W3C's royalty-free Patent Policy ^, one way to invite consideration of work at W3C is to make a Member Submission including the RF patent commitment. Second, noting some assertions about companies' compliance, as a standards body, we're not in position to address those./
16:02:21 <wseltzer> rrsagent, make minutes v2
16:02:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/26-online-harms-minutes.html wseltzer
16:03:40 <wseltzer> rrsagent, bye
16:03:40 <RRSAgent> I see no action items