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17:01:14 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:01:15 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), plh
17:01:36 <plh> Title: Web Components
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17:03:09 <bkardell> present+
17:03:14 <boazsender> present+
17:03:18 <masonfreed> present+
17:03:19 <plh> present+
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17:04:29 <leobalter> present+ Leo Balter
17:04:45 <Rob> present+ Rob Eisenberg
17:04:55 <dandclark> present+ Dan Clark
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17:05:45 <plh> https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/issues/877
17:05:50 <plh> scribeNick: plh
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17:06:05 <plh> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/webcomponents/issues/877
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17:06:39 <zcorpan> present+
17:06:46 <zcorpan> Simon Pieters, Bocoup
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17:07:22 <plh> ryosuke: any topic to discusss at this meeting?
17:07:29 <jensimmons> present+
17:07:32 <jensimmons> Jen Simmons, Apple
17:07:50 <plh> brian: can we do them in reverse order?
17:07:57 <plh> ryosuke: sure
17:08:12 <plh> Mason: also, we can talk is #45
17:08:47 <bkardell> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tWvWBuPtQiJFhOEEfMiLtPZuxag1CV_tbTJHE187B_g/edit#heading=h.9ut5sja3keva
17:08:49 <leobalter> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tWvWBuPtQiJFhOEEfMiLtPZuxag1CV_tbTJHE187B_g/edit#
17:09:07 <leobalter> You've got my by the hair, bkardell
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17:10:01 <plh> Topic: SVG unknown element
17:10:49 <plh> Brian: SVG and MathML are both in HTML spec under embedded content
17:11:02 <plh> [Brian Kardell, Igalia]
17:11:41 <plh> Brian: they lack basic IDL definition until recently
17:11:55 <plh> ... SVG has the concept of SVGUnknownElement
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17:12:05 <plh> ... Iagalia would like to do the same for MathML
17:12:32 <plh> ... both of those are interested in taking advantages of custom elements and ShadowDOM
17:12:53 <plh> Justin: this is realted to do custom svg element in the future
17:13:05 <plh> ... we've been working on a polyfill
17:13:17 <plh> ... SVGUnknownElement is spec'ed out in SVG 2.0
17:13:28 <plh> ... make it behave like a g element
17:13:28 <Jemma> s/realted/related
17:13:38 <plh> ... would be prefer to custom elements
17:13:46 <plh> s/Iagalia/Igalia/
17:13:57 <bkardell> q+
17:13:59 <plh> ... but nobody working on SVG anymore, and no implementation for SVG 2
17:14:08 <plh> ... so I wanted to check in
17:14:15 <plh> ... and if anybody knows what's going on
17:14:50 <Jemma> present+
17:15:15 <plh> Tess: I agree with Justin. SVG is not high priority for implementers
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17:15:20 <justinfagnani> present+
17:15:34 <plh> Tess: SVG has 2 kinds
17:15:43 <plh> ... SVG document as an XML doc
17:15:46 <plh> ... and inline in HTML
17:15:53 <plh> ... in the XML, it's obvious
17:16:00 <plh> ... in the HTML, less obvious
17:16:08 <plh> ... wouldn't you get HTMLUnknownElement?
17:16:17 <plh> ... are you proposing to change the HTML parser?
17:16:35 <plh> Simon: when you have an SVG start tag
17:16:46 <plh> ... so any unknown elements get the SVG namespace
17:17:12 <plh> Tess: so the only would be in the SVG space.
17:17:23 <plh> Simon: it would appear in the DOM inteface
17:17:38 <plh> Alex: wouldn't be a breaking change?
17:17:47 <plh> Simon: not aware of any
17:18:07 <plh> Brian: I agree it's not making changes to the parser
17:18:20 <plh> ... worked for our prototype in MathML
17:18:29 <plh> ... would be the same for SVG
17:18:41 <plh> ... we are interested in SVG and are actively implementing
17:19:01 <plh> ... so it's about going through custom elements and shadowDOM
17:19:54 <plh> Anne: Wouldn’t there be a change to the parser given that it introduces script execution at those points?
17:20:13 <plh> Simon: script execution doesn't really match what browser implementers
17:20:25 <plh> ... we'd need to update the spec anyway to match implementation
17:21:09 <plh> ... for the DOM interface, it's not a material change to the HTML parser
17:21:21 <plh> ... script eexcution would need to change
17:21:50 <plh> Olli: list of possibilities or problems? like IDref?
17:22:11 <plh> Justin: there are several SVG issues in the webcomponents repo
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17:22:25 <plh> ... should we readjust them and/or open new ones?
17:22:40 <plh> Olli: having the big picture would be useful
17:22:52 <plh> Brian: is there any interest to do that?
17:23:24 <plh> Justin: it seems a big downside to the world at the moment. blocking use cases
17:23:42 <slightlyoff> +1 to making this possible
17:23:58 <Westbrook> +1 to making this possible
17:24:01 <bkardell> +1 to moving on - I thought it would actually be quicker than that :)
17:24:07 <plh> Ryosuke: let's move next topic. maybe best to open issues and track them
17:24:34 <plh> Justin: there are some issues open already
17:24:40 <plh> Ryosuke: have an umbrella issue
17:24:58 <plh> Topic: Scoped custom element registries
17:25:16 <plh> (Justin presents slides)
17:26:17 <plh> Justin: idea to create a registry, associate with shadowroot
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17:26:35 <plh> ... shadowdom is scoped to a registry or not
17:26:41 <Joshue108> present+
17:27:06 <slightlyoff> present+
17:27:08 <plh> Justin: seems good consensus on the MVP
17:27:19 <plh> ... some open question
17:27:24 <plh> ... #895
17:27:41 <plh> ... Upgrade Ordering
17:27:42 <Rob> q+
17:27:49 <plh> q- bkardell
17:28:12 <plh> Justin: would be nice not have to walk the entire document but just a subtree
17:28:23 <plh> q- Rob
17:28:46 <plh> Rob: status on how this would interact with static shadowDOM?
17:29:04 <plh> s/static/declarative/
17:29:09 <plh> Justin: still open question
17:29:57 <plh> ... [quoting Ryosuke]
17:30:30 <plh> Ryosuke: what about constructors?
17:30:43 <plh> ... not making constructors would be ok?
17:31:09 <plh> ... there are some ways when we couldn't make it to work
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17:31:30 <plh> Caridy: that case would be tricky, ie refactor hassle
17:31:36 <plh> ... we focused on MVP
17:31:47 <plh> ... there are some ideas for the future
17:32:02 <plh> ... we wouldn't add more features unless people ask for them
17:33:04 <plh> ?: if you register a constructor in the registry, what do you get if we're not supporting constructors?
17:33:18 <plh> Justin: you get the same constructor you passed to it
17:34:11 <plh> ... in order to preserve backward compatibility, constructors are assumed to only work if they are in the global registry
17:34:31 <plh> ... in the future, if we want it to work, it would have to be a different API call
17:34:38 <plh> ... we want some kind of consistent behavior here
17:34:53 <plh> Caridy: yes, many holes there.
17:35:08 <plh> Ryosuke: in terms of solving this problem later.
17:35:25 <plh> ... each constructor can only be register with at most one registry
17:35:38 <plh> ... if we don't do that, we would forever close a path
17:36:16 <justinfagnani> q+
17:36:17 <plh> ... one way to have a proxy
17:37:00 <plh> Ryosuke: if we allow same object with multiple registration, I'm afraid of having an API that would prevent future solutions
17:37:19 <plh> Brian: so prevent the same constructor to be registered in different scope?
17:37:23 <plh> Ryosuke: right
17:38:02 <plh> ... we could have a proxy or prevent multiple registrations
17:38:09 <plh> Brian: agreed
17:38:37 <caridy> Brian->Caridy
17:38:47 <plh> Justin: s/Brian:/Caridy/
17:40:09 <plh> Justin: image you have a class that is not registering in the global registry. if it gets used in an other package, the registry could fail
17:40:55 <plh> ?: it feels like adopting Ryosuke doesn't prevent from changing in the future
17:41:10 <plh> ... we can continue to work on this problem
17:41:16 <Rob> q+
17:41:24 <plh> Justin: the multi-actor hazard might be an issue
17:41:37 <plh> ... this solves the constructor problem however
17:41:53 <Westbrook> q+
17:41:57 <plh> ... I'm inclined to say that, with this solution, we would get callable constructor
17:42:30 <plh> ?: I'm happy with that. we need to agree on the definition of MVP. is it small enough to try it out?
17:43:42 <plh> Ryosuke: let's wait on what to do until we get more feedback?
17:44:14 <plh> Justin: fine with this. newable constructor aren't that important. most things are created by createElement
17:44:23 <plh> ... I'm fine with this restriction for now
17:45:04 <plh> Proposal: registration only accepts constructors that haven't been registered yet?
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17:45:25 <plh> Justin: we should be able to merge my PR
17:45:28 <Rob> I don't think this combination of constraints is going to work.
17:45:39 <plh> ... and we can track that one decision separately
17:45:40 <Rob> I'
17:45:46 <Rob> I'd like to get a word in real quick.
17:46:44 <plh> Rob: if we have a situation with no inheritance and single registry, you'll have problems when you can't use the component
17:46:50 <plh> ... eg a button
17:47:06 <plh> ?: you would subclass the button
17:47:13 <plh> ?: or proxy
17:47:19 <plh> q- Rob
17:47:34 <Westbrook> This means that is any of the code in your page uses scope then likely ALL code in your page needs to do this, which feels really forceful.
17:47:59 <Westbrook> q-
17:48:02 <plh> Justin: without subclassing, we don't have a way to introduce a constructor in a particular scope
17:48:09 <plh> ... I'll open an issue on this
17:49:29 <plh> Ryosuke: can we agreement on restricting the registry?
17:49:30 <plh> Justin: fine with me
17:49:44 <plh> Topic: Next meeting
17:50:07 <plh> RyosukeL CSS script modules will be discussed in a different session
17:50:23 <plh> Caridi: what about the ordering issue?
17:50:31 <plh> Ryosuke: let's take it offline
17:50:39 <plh> Justin: I'll open separate issues
17:50:50 <plh> ... after we merge the PR
17:50:50 <Rob> We need to keep discussing this issue of ctors in multiple registries.
17:51:29 <plh> zakim, end meeting
17:51:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been bkardell, boazsender, masonfreed, plh, smaug, Hidde, Leo, Balter, Rob, Eisenberg, Dan, Clark, zcorpan, jensimmons, kenchris, Jemma,
17:51:32 <Zakim> ... justinfagnani, Joshue, slightlyoff
17:51:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:51:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/26-components-minutes.html Zakim
17:51:34 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, plh; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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20:42:20 <bicknellr> /window/next
20:43:05 <bicknellr> oops, trying to learn irrsi
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