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04:58:23 <tidoust> Meeting: Second Screen F2F - Day 2/2
04:58:31 <tidoust> Chair: Anssi
04:58:34 <tidoust> RRSagent, make logs public
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05:00:10 <tidoust> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/secondscreen-wg/issues/1
05:00:16 <oyiptong> present+
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05:02:08 <zouhir> zouhir has joined #webscreens
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05:02:28 <pwnall> present+ Victor Costan (Google)
05:03:04 <mfoltzgoogle> present+ Mark Foltz (Google)
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05:03:22 <oyiptong> present+ Olivier Yiptong (Google)
05:03:23 <msw> present+ Mike Wasserman (Google)
05:03:57 <darktears> present+ Alexis Menard (Intel)
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05:05:02 <Takumi_Fujimoto> present+ Takumi Fujimoto (Google)
05:05:29 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
05:05:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html anssik
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05:08:10 <anssik> Present+ Alexis_Menard, Anssi_Kostiainen, Zouhir, Takumi_Fujimoto, Mike_Wasserman, Srikanth, Kenneth_Christiansen, Mark_Foltz, Eric_Carson, Arno_Mandy, Laura_Morinigo, Olivier_Yiptong, Victor_Costan
05:08:22 <anssik> Regrets+ Chris_Needham, Francois_Daoust
05:08:27 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
05:08:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html anssik
05:08:42 <anssik> Scribe: Mark
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05:08:49 <anssik> scribeNick: mfoltzgoogle
05:09:39 <mfoltzgoogle> Topic: Foldable use cases and requirements
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05:09:56 <kenchris> +present Kenneth_Christiansen
05:10:35 <Laura> +present Laura_Morinigo
05:10:57 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: Today's meeting will be focused on exploratory work in the SSCG and in related groups.
05:11:19 <mfoltzgoogle> ... I have asked Srikant to talk to us about new form factors in upcoming devices,
05:11:29 <mfoltzgoogle> ... how they should be considered in new Web APIs.
05:12:32 <mfoltzgoogle> Srikanth: Presentating on Web Support for New Device Features
05:12:59 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Long history in VESA, HDMI, Wi-Fi display, other bodies.
05:14:07 <mfoltzgoogle> ... There are multiple new form factors.  Foldable displays with multiple independent display panels.
05:14:22 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Ranging from laptop size to smaller sizes, like a mobile phone.
05:14:35 <anssik> [ Srikanth presenting slides ]
05:14:44 <anssik> [ MID = Multiple Independent Displays ]
05:15:15 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Intel Horsehoe Bend, at CES earlier this year.  Supports multiple configurations: laptop, table-top, flat, canvas or book
05:15:56 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Depending on the amount of incline, you can lay it all the way flat, for input or drawing.
05:16:15 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Your user experience will differ, and the camera and speaker are reconfigured accordingly.
05:16:26 <mfoltzgoogle> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
05:16:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
05:18:05 <anssik> Present+ Wooglae_Kim
05:18:21 <mfoltzgoogle> scribenick: mfoltzgoogle
05:18:56 <mfoltzgoogle> Srikanth: shows a video demonstrating capabilities of the foldable laptop.
05:19:39 <anssik> s/Independent/Internal
05:19:48 <mfoltzgoogle> ... This is not a new concept.  [Shows a slide of the Lenovo X1 Fold on the MID platform]
05:21:07 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Even if you have a MID, the emphasis is on fold.  Both are posture-based.  User experience and resources will differ.
05:21:37 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Many of these are supported in W3C today, but how to provide a seamless, consistent experience.
05:22:21 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Consistency in how Web applications determine what the posture is.  Posture enforcement as necessary.
05:22:33 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Want this regardless of foldable vs. MID.
05:23:31 <mfoltzgoogle> ... [Shows a device with a physical hinge].  This device can with a sharper fold; can have a 360 degree bend.
05:24:18 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Devices without hinge, there is a less acute fold because of the physical layers of the display.  Can't completely fold (0 or 360)
05:24:45 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Number of displays, we are seeing two, but there could be more.  Could be panels of unequal size, or three different panels.
05:25:07 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Do the interface once, have these webapps work and be foreward compatible.
05:26:06 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Foldables, there is typically one display.  It depends on the display configuration, could be one or more depending on the posture.
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05:26:44 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Seam is always present on a MID.  In a foldable, there is a virtual hinge, it's a user experience decision.
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05:27:13 <mfoltzgoogle> ... The beauty of a virtual hinge is it's a software abstraction.
05:27:38 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Touch controller is associated with each panel.  Is configurable to generate various HID reports.
05:27:51 <mfoltzgoogle> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
05:27:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
05:29:14 <mfoltzgoogle> Srikanth: [Table showing attributes of MID vs. Foldables]
05:30:16 <mfoltzgoogle> ... If you have an enlightened app, aware of the seam, it can adjust layout according to the seams in the display.
05:31:03 <mfoltzgoogle> ... This is an example of how a seam can help the web app to choose.
05:31:47 <mfoltzgoogle> ... [Slide shows how apps could customize themselves for different foldable postures]
05:33:12 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Key point is, apps can benefit from other information, posture, occlusion, etc.
05:34:02 <mfoltzgoogle> Alexis: New UX patterns as you use different postures on the device.
05:35:32 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Show you kinds of problems you might get on web applications.   We designed a gallery to respond to multiple displays.
05:35:46 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Not to just adapt their app, but based on posture, provide a better experience.
05:36:33 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Don't want to position across the hinge.
05:37:32 <mfoltzgoogle> ... The current thing that we see, is covering the new form factors.I need the screen fold API to determine
05:37:51 <mfoltzgoogle> ... If I am in tent mode.  They are complementary, but I can't use them in a consistent manner, across the OS.
05:38:27 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Next steps, MID are different from foldables.  Different from an externally connected displays.
05:38:54 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Whatever specification we put up, should cover these types of devices.
05:39:32 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: The future looks quite exciting, when it comes to new form factors.  We should be designing new APIs in a future-proof manner.
05:39:58 <mfoltzgoogle> ... This is the beginning of the discussion, but want it to be a kick-off for this type of exercise.
05:40:30 <mfoltzgoogle> q+
05:40:36 <anssik> ack mfoltzgoogle
05:40:41 <zouhir_> q+
05:41:32 <anssik> Mark: certain type of single displays can do virtual multiple displays, how does this work out with that, has that been considered a use case?
05:42:00 <mfoltzgoogle> Srikanth: That is a use case as well.  For example, you can use docked devices.
05:42:38 <mfoltzgoogle> ... You can have software abstractions that virtualize the hardware.  I fully expect the platforms to have multiple docked scenarios.
05:42:51 <msw> q+
05:42:57 <anssik> ack zouhir_
05:43:21 <anssik> q?
05:44:00 <mfoltzgoogle> zouhir_: We have an API to get the geometry of each physical display, an API with an enum of postures.
05:44:27 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Developer has to use two APIs to get geometry and posture.
05:44:49 <mfoltzgoogle> Alexis: Edge doesn't allow me to get the posture, that's the inconstency.
05:45:22 <mfoltzgoogle> zouhir_: Incomplete implementations, by having them separate, some browsers may not implement one or the other.
05:45:36 <mfoltzgoogle> s/zouhir_/.../
05:46:31 <mfoltzgoogle> Srikanth: Many low-level details are exposed to the application, applications have to put them together to get the big picture.
05:47:03 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Different applications may interpret them differently.  What sort of things are okay to allow some inconsistency.
05:47:06 <anssik> ack msw
05:47:51 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: Do you wish to generalize the foldables API to handle additional use cases? Like MID / 360 hinges?
05:48:16 <mfoltzgoogle> Srikanth: Given all the possibilities in the underlying hardware.  What is the right abstraction to expose to webapps?
05:49:10 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Tomorrow, if there are 4 internal panels, foldable in different ways, do we want to re-do some APIs, or create full abstractions?
05:49:35 <mfoltzgoogle> kenchris: It has to be simple as possible for the common use cases, or developers won't adopt it.
05:50:19 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: Try to understand what are the experiences they want to build, and optimize for the common scenarios.
05:50:31 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Make the less common thing possible, but maybe not as easy.
05:50:35 <anssik> ack
05:50:37 <anssik> q?
05:54:00 <mfoltzgoogle> Topic: Multi-Screen Window Placement
05:54:14 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: [Shares slides]
05:54:28 <mfoltzgoogle>  RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
05:54:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
05:54:42 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: This proposal is related to foldables.  Addresses a generalized set of use cases.
05:55:20 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Generalize Web Platform for multi-screen displays.
05:55:37 <mfoltzgoogle> ... [Slide comparing existing Web APIs and goals of MSWP]
05:55:57 <mfoltzgoogle> ... [Slides showing examples of multiple-display devices, projectors, signage, lots of use cases]
05:56:27 <mfoltzgoogle> Goals: Increasing initial information about additional displays; adding a change event when they change;
05:56:53 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Request additional per-screen info; sites can request fullscreen on another window
05:57:27 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Slide shows current properties exposed through CSSOM
05:58:05 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Proposal is to allow sites to request additional information about connected screens.
05:58:27 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Currently you can use window.open to create new windows, with left/top coordinates
05:58:35 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Can move to/by (x,y) coordinates
05:59:20 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Crux of the proposal is to allow cross-screen coordinates for these operations.
05:59:34 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: One set of updates is that we have an ongoing origin trial with prototype code.
05:59:44 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Addressing some good feedback, including some API shape changes.
06:00:37 <mfoltzgoogle> ... There is a demo: https://window-placement.glitch.me
06:00:54 <mfoltzgoogle> ... More info: https://web.dev/multi-screen-window-placement
06:01:13 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Github: https://michaelwasserman.github.io/window-placement-demo
06:01:28 <anssik> q?
06:02:38 <msw> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Liom19iRqyuTvMYjygzLSj6cYa0xUfvvZDTgabQsPus/edit#slide=id.ga0ed95d99b_1_43
06:03:20 <zouhir_> q
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06:03:34 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: We have interested partners in this, they want to explore a new space.
06:03:52 <mfoltzgoogle> ... We have Chrome apps APIs and OS APIs, we want to offer the same affordances to the Web.
06:04:09 <eric_carlson> q+
06:04:40 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: You are catering for the established usages.  Your use cases are more clearly defined.
06:04:51 <mfoltzgoogle> ... For foldables, it's not as clear.
06:04:54 <zouhir_> q+
06:05:20 <mfoltzgoogle> ... How much we can unify MSWP, and some of these new proposals.  It might not be 100% overlap.
06:05:37 <anssik> ack eric_carlson
06:06:16 <mfoltzgoogle> Eric: What you've done to mitigate the many bits of entropy about users with non-standard configurations?
06:07:20 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: Similar information is exposed if windows on placed on multiple screens.  We are also proposing a permission that user agents can use to gate access.
06:07:30 <mfoltzgoogle> Eric: What is exposed without a prompt?
06:07:59 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: A single bit whether there is an external screen, so sites know whether to prompt multiscreen users.
06:09:33 <anssik> Mark: Presentation API is slightly different in terms of availability detection, the Presentation API does not expose any info on external display, Remote Playback is similar
06:09:51 <anssik> q?
06:09:57 <anssik> ack zouhir_
06:11:07 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: Want to work to create an API surface that is minimal, can talk again about how make these APIs work together.
06:12:04 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Regarding privacy, if permissions is the way to protect customers, and I want to make sure my YouTube controls are laid out right.
06:12:34 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Don't want to show a bad experience, then require a permissions prompt to show a good experience.
06:13:22 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: Good opportunity to collaborate on an API surface.
06:14:19 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Permissions are tricky, Web platform was built so that users can see screen info.  If you install an app, it can access screens and system info.
06:14:47 <anssik> q?
06:15:05 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Possibly we could expose screens that a user is spread across, without requesting permissions.
06:15:33 <mfoltzgoogle> s/user/application/
06:16:50 <msw> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Liom19iRqyuTvMYjygzLSj6cYa0xUfvvZDTgabQsPus
06:17:00 <anssik> q?
06:17:04 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: Let's create follow-up actions through GitHub
06:17:23 <anssik> -> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Liom19iRqyuTvMYjygzLSj6cYa0xUfvvZDTgabQsPus Multi-Screen Window Placement presentation
06:17:34 <anssik> q?
06:18:16 <mfoltzgoogle> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
06:18:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
06:26:28 <mfoltzgoogle> Topic: Window Segments
06:27:09 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: [Presents slides]
06:27:26 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Window Segment Enumeration Script API
06:27:42 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Targeting dual screen and foldable devices.
06:27:55 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Surface Duo/Neo.  2 physical screens, 1 fold.
06:28:14 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Samsung Galaxy, 1 screen, 1 fold, 2 logical screens.
06:29:12 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Email app example, responsive on a dual-screen, the content is not laid out in a user-friendly way.  Snap content to fold.
06:29:59 <mfoltzgoogle> ... CSS API to help developer lay out.  In case CSS is not available for games and canvas, the JS API is handy.
06:30:55 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Simple, one method.  getWindowSegments() returns a list of segments.
06:31:42 <mfoltzgoogle> ... API is an immutable snapshot, need to listen to resize events to know if it's invalid.
06:32:25 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Difference between dual monitors and foldable.  App launches is not consuming the full screen on desktop.
06:32:58 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Maximizes, does not span dual monitors, but does on foldable.
06:33:34 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Users want to avoid alerts, dialogs on fold.  Want to move it to one side or the other.
06:34:32 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Customers want to focus on portable form factors.
06:34:48 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: Don't want to create new, redundant APIs
06:35:03 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Don't want a lot of API surface for developers.
06:36:16 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Outlook, e.g. not requesting multi-monitor spanning behavior.
06:36:33 <kenchris> q?
06:36:38 <msw> q+
06:36:41 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Want the Web to be prepared for new form factors, versus sniffing around to optimize for them.
06:37:19 <eric_carlson> q+
06:38:14 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: Start with the core use cases, and incrementally ship new features.  "When in doubt, leave it out"
06:40:00 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: If use cases are different, e.g. multi-window applications versus app layout.  Think about naming it carefully if we decide to keep APIs separate.
06:40:13 <anssik> q?
06:40:20 <anssik> ack msw
06:40:31 <kenchris> q+
06:41:11 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: The premise of segments, is potentially polyfillable given the intersections of screens and windows.
06:41:31 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Are foldables doing something different than the desktop display paradigm?
06:42:21 <mfoltzgoogle> ... There is a more general set of primitives, that could provide more information, that people could build libraries for different use cases.
06:43:30 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: We can use one API with more complex information, developers can optimize it.  If I have to do calculations, developers will build a support library.
06:44:22 <mfoltzgoogle> ... What if I am on desktop, and I span my browser.  I feel like users don't expect layouts to change.  Would there be surprises for users?
06:44:53 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Looking into how we can make information available, without requiring permissions.
06:44:58 <anssik> ack kenchris
06:45:02 <anssik> q?
06:45:33 <mfoltzgoogle> kenchris: It is hard to polyfill CSS.  You might want to use an iPad as a secondary screen, and not be cut by a seam.
06:45:37 <kenchris> q-
06:45:37 <anssik> ack eric_carlson
06:46:18 <mfoltzgoogle> Eric: What do you do to mitigate the entropy that this API exposes about a non-standard configuration.
06:47:31 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir:  Right now we don't have permissions, developers can know a lot about the device form factor already.  We have a policy to prevent iframes from getting info.
06:47:49 <darktears> q+
06:48:16 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Gating it by a permission is providing a bad user experience at the end.
06:49:17 <mfoltzgoogle> Eric: Agree that a user prompt isn't useful, but for perspective, we have device enumeration for getUserMedia.
06:50:07 <mfoltzgoogle> ... When we looked at how they were being used, we found that enumerateDevices was used more than 2X times more often than getUserMedia.
06:50:15 <mfoltzgoogle> ... s/2X/2 orders of magnitude/
06:51:15 <mfoltzgoogle> ... It was being used solely as a means of fingerprinting.  Now, enumerateDevices returns a lie, until the user has given consent to capture.
06:52:16 <mfoltzgoogle> ... We got feedback that it was a change that had to be made.  You'll have to have a compelling argument that the bits of entropy are worth the cost.
06:53:01 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: We don't want developers to be able to achieve something natural for this class of device.  Exposing the device hinge is not a big risk.
06:53:43 <mfoltzgoogle> ... We can't lie to developers about the hinge position.  We have to tell them something useful, position and dimension of hinge.
06:53:47 <anssik> q?
06:54:44 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: What extra info does surface duo share, versus e.g. iPhone max?
06:56:28 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: You can infer device from geometry, because there are few foldables on market.  For iPhones, developers need to know size e.g. of notch, to avoid rendering text on it.
06:58:12 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: We need to differentiate between multi-monitor setups, and other use cases.
06:58:21 <mfoltzgoogle> ... (regarding fingerprinting possibilities)
06:58:52 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: Foldables are another responsive Web design target, I think it's something developers need to be aware of.
06:59:06 <anssik> q?
06:59:53 <mfoltzgoogle> ... As a website developer, I should be able to make it look nice.  But if I have an ad iframe, it does not need this information.
06:59:58 <anssik> ack darktears
07:00:42 <mfoltzgoogle> Alexis: In the case of a dual screen, you have only one screen, so the viewport size is the sum, so without this API you can get the viewport size and aspect ratio.
07:00:58 <mfoltzgoogle> ... We are not exposing anything, because it's viewport / 2.
07:01:41 <mfoltzgoogle> ... We are already exposing much of this information in other ways.
07:03:02 <anssik> ACTION zouhir_ to document fingerprinting concerns and mitigations in the spec
07:03:36 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: Want to respond to the discussion about libraries. Whether to have something simple, or require a library/NPM.
07:03:47 <anssik> ACTION: zouhir_ to document fingerprinting concerns and mitigations in the spec
07:03:56 <anssik> q?
07:04:41 <mfoltzgoogle> ACTION: zouhir_ to open a GitHub issue to discuss use of libraries to provide window segments information
07:04:54 <anssik> q?
07:05:34 <mfoltzgoogle> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
07:05:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
07:06:15 <mfoltzgoogle> kenchris: Some of these devices have a physical hinge, with dual screens.
07:06:34 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Want to change behavior based on posture.  Or animate based on fold angle.
07:06:47 <mfoltzgoogle> Topic: Screen Fold API
07:07:25 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Expose as a ScreenFold object with a change event.
07:07:32 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Look at different postures that might exist.
07:07:49 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Some devices might have a second fold, or different screen sizes.
07:08:23 <mfoltzgoogle> ... The hinge is not in the middle.  Or maybe there are two hinges.
07:08:42 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Looking at what OEMs are thinking of, dual fold devices.
07:08:59 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Want this to be integrated into other specs.  Could be used as a secondary screen.
07:09:02 <tidoust> present+ Francois_Daoust
07:09:20 <tidoust> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
07:09:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html tidoust
07:09:22 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Want to use the screen on the table for video editing.
07:09:57 <mfoltzgoogle> kenchris: Important to standardize when things are in certain postures.  What angles are they using?  Talk to Samsung, Intel.
07:10:24 <mfoltzgoogle> kenchris: Can be used in combination with other APIs.
07:10:52 <mfoltzgoogle> s/Talk/Talked/
07:11:34 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: Are we able to handle multiple, external monitors, which might be foldable?
07:11:47 <mfoltzgoogle> ... To test how prepared we are for the future.
07:12:01 <anssik> q?
07:12:05 <msw> q+
07:12:12 <mfoltzgoogle> kenchris: We need to integrate with Window Placement, and handle multiple folds.
07:12:33 <mfoltzgoogle> ... I could imagine having the Intel Horseshoe, and multiple external monitors.
07:13:12 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: We may be able to handle this API in the future, how does the future look like?  Don't paint ourselves into a corner.
07:13:14 <anssik> q?
07:13:22 <anssik> ack msw
07:14:07 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: When there are multiple integrated displays, if they are separate Screen objects, how would a single fold between those screens be supported?
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07:14:58 <mfoltzgoogle> kenchris: We have seen this as one virtual screen.  Are there any devices where the hinge separates the screen?
07:15:32 <mfoltzgoogle> ... See if there is a hinge, but not screens right next to each other.
07:15:33 <anssik> q?
07:16:12 <mfoltzgoogle> Alexis: On the surface Duo, it will be two physical screens, two logical screens.
07:17:11 <zouhir_> q+
07:17:39 <anssik> q?
07:18:11 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: Does the screen fold API address traditional form factors, that might have a fold sensor?
07:18:29 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Does this API report the angle?
07:18:40 <mfoltzgoogle> kenchris:  Not sure if there is a sensor for these devices.
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07:19:03 <cpn> present+ Chris_Needham
07:19:11 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: Are there use cases for supporting this?
07:19:17 <anssik> q?
07:19:22 <mfoltzgoogle> s/anssik/kenchris/
07:19:58 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: Anecdotally, laptops and Chromebooks transition into tablet mode, when they fold beyond 180?
07:20:18 <anssik> ack zouhir_
07:21:41 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: Window Segment / Screen Enumeration have a similar concept, but different use case.  Foldables API, complements these use cases.
07:22:07 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Which way do we want to think about merging Window Segment.
07:22:52 <mfoltzgoogle> kenchris: If we have a laptop with a hinge, that knows when it is converted.  It's a different screen size, is there a use case for traditional laptops.
07:23:09 <mfoltzgoogle> ... If so, it doesn't make sense for foldables.
07:23:42 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: Do native APIs expose hinge angle?  If no, then Web content doesn't require it either.
07:24:10 <mfoltzgoogle> Alexis:  There is a sensor for the Pixelbook.  It it's used to resolve the media query for hover/touch.
07:24:26 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Web application can adapt to be touch friendly.
07:25:54 <mfoltzgoogle> kenchris: That seems like a way to optimize for primary input.  Also, on some devices, the granularity of the sensor varies.
07:26:06 <anssik> q?
07:26:55 <mfoltzgoogle> Alexis: Some devices with a stylus always report that a stylus is available, so input signals are not a good way to detect tablet mode.
07:27:11 <mfoltzgoogle> Topic: Aligning Window Segments, Screen Fold, Multi-Screen Window Placement APIs
07:27:24 <cpn> present+ Masaya_Ikeo
07:27:24 <mfoltzgoogle> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
07:27:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html mfoltzgoogle
07:28:04 <anssik> q?
07:28:43 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: We have three APIs, two similar in concepts, two similar in use cases.
07:29:04 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Don't rush and commit, open to ideas.
07:29:12 <msw> +q
07:29:45 <mfoltzgoogle> anssik: Discuss opportunities for aligning.  Make sure that these people are watching each others' work.
07:30:35 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Useful to cross-link specs, that Screenfold and Window Segments are addressing similar applications.
07:31:36 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: Agree.  We should add the foldables APIs to keep them in those use cases.
07:32:43 <anssik> q?
07:33:10 <anssik> ACTION: zouhir_ to cross-link foldable-related specs together
07:34:02 <mfoltzgoogle> Zouhir: When I am dragging my window across two windows, how can web developers decide not to opt-in the foldable layout?
07:34:16 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
07:34:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html anssik
07:34:59 <kenchris> https://github.com/SamsungInternet/Explainers/blob/master/Foldables/FoldState.md
07:35:05 <kenchris> https://w3c.github.io/screen-fold/
07:35:11 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: There are currently no window events on move.  It would probably be valuable to have a move events on window.  Maybe expose segments after the move loop is complete.
07:35:17 <anssik> q?
07:35:20 <anssik> ack msw
07:35:47 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
07:35:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html anssik
07:35:57 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Maybe only surface segment information if the window is maximized and spanning both monitors.
07:36:58 <mfoltzgoogle> Zoushir:  Different devices have different granularity, with respect to resizing.  Also only maximizing, may exclude Samsung use cases.
07:37:49 <mfoltzgoogle> ... Desktop always be opting in, unless you opt out with media queries, viewport size.
07:38:24 <anssik> Present+ Masaya_Ikeo
07:38:51 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: Part of the screen information exposed, could be whether the screens are physically adjacent.
07:41:15 <anssik> ACTION: msw to reference complementary proposals of Window Segments and Screen Fold, Visual Viewport, open appropriate GH issues
07:41:21 <tidoust> [As part of cross-referencing specs, alignment on terms could be useful (and easy) too. I heard Alexis talk in terms of logical/physical displays. Screen Fold uses "screen", Window Segment uses "display" and "screen", Window placement uses "connected screens"]
07:41:24 <anssik> q?
07:41:49 <msw> q+
07:42:24 <anssik> ack msw
07:43:04 <mfoltzgoogle> msw: A breakout session could be the best way that we have something concrete to look forward to.
07:44:57 <anssik> ACTION: msw to (with help from kenneth, zouhir, dlibby) organize a TPAC breakout session on aligning Window Segments, Screen Fold, Multi-Screen Window Placement APIs
07:45:09 <msw> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2020/SessionIdeas
07:45:27 <anssik> q?
07:45:58 <anssik> q?
07:46:13 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
07:46:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html anssik
07:49:23 <anssik> Topic: Adjorn
07:49:34 <mfoltzgoogle> Topic: Adjorn
07:49:40 <anssik> RRSAgent, draft minutes v2
07:49:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/21-webscreens-minutes.html anssik
08:26:50 <masaya_ikeo_nhk_> masaya_ikeo_nhk_ has joined #webscreens
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